Where to buy headways?

[MitchJi]

Hi,

So how do you sell batteries then?

And that's the pot calling the kettle black. You are deluding yourself by making negative comments about EVComponents.

You, an ex-pat living in Shanghai, buys a load of stolen A123 pouch cells on the black market, that slipped out the back door from the Incheon assembly facility, and resell them here at a tidy profit.

Just because you paid someone for them does not legitimize your having possession of them.

This is completely inappropriate:
1. Unproven allegations that a forum member is selling stolen property. Publicly impugning someone's integrity isn't something that should be done lightly or without proof.

2. Way off topic.

I think the Cells in question are probably clones due to the facts that A123 doesn't list 15ah cells and they have publicly stated their technology is being copied in China:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...y-manufacturing-20100429,0,5978614,full.story

But in ramping up production in China, A123 paid an immeasurable price, Riley says: Loss of its intellectual property – the ideas and engineering that made its products better."

The company did what it could to slow the technology transfer by breaking down the manufacturing process into steps, Riley said, but "we ended up having to teach these guys how to make our state-of-the-art, world-class batteries... And some of them are [now] competing with us directly."

 

[cell_man]

I really don't think the cells I have are clones made in China. If they were, there would be an endless supply for me to get and others too. They were a limited run thing and I am still selling off what I bought months back and cannot get any more. The other thing that makes me think that is not the case is that although the cells are similar, there are some obvious differences between some of the cells. If they were copies, they'd all be exactly the same, pristine and straight off the production line, they're not.

Anyways, more back on topic, I'm seriously considering getting into the supply of Headway cells and later packs. I have a price level in mind that is better than presently available from others Chinese suppliers. Down the road also look at the packs but re-engineer where required and source BMS myself. Being in China and no more than 2 hours from the Headway factory I can make sure stuff is right before it leaves the factory, rather than finding out 2 months later after it crossed a few thousand miles of ocean. I will have a stock if I do this and parts can be shipped by Sea, Standard Air Freight or EMS initially. I need to discuss further with Headway before I can give exact prices. I'm thinking that the final cost to the customer will be similar or even a bit cheaper than EVC were offering, depending upon the shipping method used, Sea Freight for those who aren't in a rush.

If I do this, Shipments will be made as soon as the package has been prepared. No consolidation of shipments and using your money to buy stock. I use my money to buy stock and sell it when I get the order.

 

[liveforphysics]

I think the Cells in question are probably clones due to the facts that A123 doesn't list 15ah cells and they have publicly stated their technology is being copied in China:

There is an official A123 .pdf file floating around that shows the prismatic line-up with a wide range of cells. 4Ah, 6Ah, 10Ah, 12Ah, 15Ah, 20Ah. I may have even left out a capacity. It also shows a little chart showing a 10-cell 26650 M1 tool pack (obviously the dewalt 36v pack) can be made X% smaller and X% lighter, while increaseing in capacity by almost double by going to the 4Ah prismatic cells from the 2.3Ah 26650 cells, and getting a higher cycle life etc etc.

Yet, you can email A123 directly, and get a response back that they don't offer ANY prismatic cells... When they have press releases talking about contracts with blah blah companies in China to make EV's using A123 prismatic cells... The company is a mixed up bunch of clowns where 1 hand doesn't know what the other is doing IMO.

Another case of a neat technology, and a web of lawyers and IP crippling it's potential postive impact on the world...

 

[dragonfire]

I really don't think the cells I have are clones made in China. If they were, there would be an endless supply for me to get and others too. They were a limited run thing and I am still selling off what I bought months back and cannot get any more. The other thing that makes me think that is not the case is that although the cells are similar, there are some obvious differences between some of the cells. If they were copies, they'd all be exactly the same, pristine and straight off the production line, they're not.

Anyways, more back on topic, I'm seriously considering getting into the supply of Headway cells and later packs. I have a price level in mind that is better than presently available from others Chinese suppliers. Down the road also look at the packs but re-engineer where required and source BMS myself. Being in China and no more than 2 hours from the Headway factory I can make sure stuff is right before it leaves the factory, rather than finding out 2 months later after it crossed a few thousand miles of ocean. I will have a stock if I do this and parts can be shipped by Sea, Standard Air Freight or EMS initially. I need to discuss further with Headway before I can give exact prices. I'm thinking that the final cost to the customer will be similar or even a bit cheaper than EVC were offering, depending upon the shipping method used, Sea Freight for those who aren't in a rush.




If I do this, Shipments will be made as soon as the package has been prepared. No consolidation of shipments and using your money to buy stock. I use my money to buy stock and sell it when I get the order.

I like your thinking, making your service distinct form factory-dirct ordering by acceptance of paypal and amex and delivery times of lesser than 45 days fromout date of order in the form of radily assembled packs according customer specifications with the cheap and qualified labour that is available in chia is the way to go - mass customiZation ( mass pruduction with customized components and details liek BMS for higher current draws and nonstandard battery cases) is way to go for the most homebuilders of components so they can receive costombuilt modules of batteries with bms and balance connectors and therelike.
cx could receive freshly mase products within their 45 days paypal safety period and without having to worry for unforeseen tax and import issues if packaging or documentation would not be made properly...

Your location and affiliated ressources, if used well, could be used ot cover up most of the pain and aches that is holding people from ordering such components till today.
We want BMS that can handle ungoodly high current peaks at higher voltages, for example 125+ amps draw at 24 and 36 volts and some people at 48 volts - this is talking about lightweight collapsible scooters only, more heavyweight projects reuire even more.
this and a kind of "SLI"- bridge to parralel up controllers or more precisely BMS signal of 2 hubmotors; this and chargers for more than 8 cells that don´t blow up in after short usage only.
A local as you could actualyl make sure the components and manufacturing technology used is really the superor stuff and staff, making the complete difference.
me having seen the production faciltiy of 3 different german high-ranked electric tools manufacturers and being in know of the high quality machinery most chinese manufcturers have available i can tell you that the main difference in quality of priduced material is that they have standardtised procedures for mounting every screw and routing every cable (which just has to be trained, it can then be followed blindly and by machine settings) and the most noteworthy: testing of each device that rolls of the asembly line in short.
You are local and can make an arrengement with headway and a123 regarding cells that may turn out to be faulty and easily return them/ swap them before shipped, this alone is worth a bunch in upcharge/ margin without you loosing much mone yon it as you can swap7 return locally.

try to work with a123 and headway in the form of them forwarding requests of customers that would prefer a readymade bolt-on solution over the bare cells they can offer in direct, it would be added service and sales for the manufacturers since the customer is guided through a easy process to order what he wants and people wanting the are cells in higher qnatities would still try and contact the manufacturer in direct anyways which wouldn´t matter anyways sinc no margin to them would be lost anyways.

I would order that way.

 

[cell_man]

Thanks Dragonfire,

my initial thinking is to just buy a relatively modest quantity of Headway cells and sell them at a very competitive price, a bit lower than other Chinese online companies are presently selling them at, but actually making very little margin. If it seems reasonably popular I will of course made a bigger commitment where I can make a more sustainable profit margin.

I would like to in time get more involved in the packs but after my experiences with the pouch cell assembly I'm a bit reluctant to jump too heavily into this until I can get some staff to do the very labour intensive work required. The Headway cells will likely be more straight forward in this respect as Headway do already have various enclosures and hardware available but do have a bit of a reputation of having slightly poor attention to detail (from what I have heard, not from personal experience) even though their product is basically sound and offers very good value. I was trying to do too much with the pouch cells and ended up personally doing pack assembly for less than 50USD profit for at least a days work and took on big projects that ended up costing me money before even considering the time put in. Whilst you are doing all this, you are not doing more important things.

Simple things like testing cells and ensuring packs are properly balanced before shipping takes time, money and often quite expensive test equipment. It's difficult to do all these things whilst selling at the lowest possible prices. When the customer is only concerned about the price it's difficult to do more than others are doing and still charge less.

 

[dragonfire]

you could offer the security that each cell was tested and is working as customizeable pakcs are.

The austrailian headway importer has his business set up around that fact: some want the best price, but others prever a acceptable price and usable servie and the safety to not receive a maybe disfunctional battery pack without ways to repair or even fid the erro on themselves.

the margin in between the price of a factory-replacement battery kit for a bike by the manufacturer with inferor nimh-cells and the cost to assemble and source the case is farmore than 50 dollars only, not mentioning that people that want a custombuilt solution are in know that a readymade and sure-to-work battery pack for their project does cost more than just the accumulated best-price of the singular cells.

rc hobby packs are different, if taling about the 12ah headways and bigger packs of a123 cells the margin is quite different ( better) and the ,arket is willed and dry about this part - a reliable source for readymade packs of lifepo cells to replace the existng nimh setups by a seller that makes every other setup i may want for a beefier motor or even a car conversion possible without me spening one minute about the "how-to" being in know that the final price will still be not more than like twice the cells price but be a readymade bolton.

factory replacmnt batteries for 24v ebikes are in between 350 and 700€uros, the margin for lifepo packs would definetivel ybe there;
as for car projects or a motorbike built with the motors and controllers costing thousands a upcharge of few hundred dolalrs for pack assembly and a bms according specs for another few hundreds is nothing to frwon from but the plain availabilty of such an option would allow lots of more people to built their e-vehicle since notz many have access to knowledge about battery assembly but lots more for the machinacal part and end-assembly of readymade "modules".
this cruation lipo compnay with the "y" in the name makes high percentage of their sales solely just cause they offer their cells to be stacked together like lego and they can configure all seizes one may like, your offering would be even more customizable by making use of reasonably priced chinese labour and fit all requirements and budgets in between oem/ ndustrial solutions and the macgyver -hombrewn solutions many fron upon if done right.

but also "just" selling cells cheaper than others and with the safety to receive a tracking info only few days in after payment sounds plenty good for me

 

[Jay64]

That's still almost 200 cells per pack and I'd be very surprised that they would do a 1 off pack assembled for the equivalent of 12USD per cell.

You might be suprised, but that is the quote that I got from the source and not from people saying what they thought the price would be. I actually was pretty bummed that I listened to all the talk on the forums about price and bought before I actually went ahead and contacted victoria directly. I would highly suggest that everyone contact victoria directly before they buy from anyone else. Even if you end up buying from someone else for whatever reason, at least you know for sure what their price is instead of listening to what someone else says they are charging, especially if that person is the one trying to sell you the same batts.

I have been following all of these pricing wars for a while now with all the batts that I bought, but one thing I have noticed as a problem in trying to do business in this field is that the price of the cells keeps changing. So if a company buys a huge quantity to get a good price, they are stuck with a huge quantity that they are selling for their profit price. But many times the new price with markup is lower then what their volume discount price was at. So they stuck trying to sell the cells for their profit price and new companies are able to sell them for a much cheaper price and still make a profit. I have spoken to a few company owners who got stuck in this situation. For that reason, it makes a lot of sense to order the product after you have a buyer for that product. But in the same regard, it makes a lot of sense to order straight from Victoria. My last batch I actually got with in five days of actually placing the order.

 

[cell_man]

I'll speak to Victoria as well but kind of gave up on her after endless attempts to communicate. I've heard lots of positive comments about dealing with Headways agent, Victoria, but my personal experience was not so good. Dealing direct with Headway has been much better so far, but lets see if they can deliver a reasonable price. I do appreciate your comments as I have personally experienced on numerous occasions where the agent of a company will actually supply at a better price than dealing direct, often significantly better. It's like they see this foreigner coming in the door, assume you are very rich and if they don't wrip you off, they wouldn't sleep at night

 

[wookey]

Yes, I found Victoria helpful and reasonably competent although I did end with not enough cell mounts which was a pain. The thing that would be really useful is taking credit cards or paypal or similar. Having to do the whole bank-transfer thing to China makes small orders impractical, as it adds $40 to the price . If you want to take that on Cell_man I'm sure it will be popular.

 

[cell_man]

I need to do some thinking on the whole headway thing. I've just returned from a factory visit and it's not gonna be as straightforward as I would have hoped but maybe I could still offer something to the smaller customer that works for them, maybe even bigger customers too, in time. All I can say is that I've been in direct discussion with the manufacturers and if I do decide to offer Headway products it would be with the full support and backup of Headway. That is not always the case.

 

[999zip999]

So much gray area. How about some black and white. How much and where 36v15ah 48v20ah headways pack 40 or 60amp. BMS with the right charger. And customer service if needed, parts ect. ????

 

[Battboy]

I need to do some thinking on the whole headway thing. I've just returned from a factory visit and it's not gonna be as straightforward as I would have hoped but maybe I could still offer something to the smaller customer that works for them, maybe even bigger customers too, in time. All I can say is that I've been in direct discussion with the manufacturers and if I do decide to offer Headway products it would be with the full support and backup of Headway. That is not always the case.

Cellman, IMO, if you do decide to offer Headway or any other Chinese products, you should be prepared to purchase your own Cell Testing equipment (not cheap) and have a program in place where any Cells you receive that don't pass your own Testing protocol will be shipped back to the supplier @ their expense and credited toward the next shipment of Cells. I know this would seem obvious to someone like yourself, but many are very naieve when it comes to dealing with Chinese mfg. If you want to bounce any ideas off of me you can PM me or better yet - send an email direct to don@lifebatt.com. I think you are a very good guy and would like to see you succeed in your next venture.

 

[cell_man]

So much gray area. How about some black and white. How much and where 36v15ah 48v20ah headways pack 40 or 60amp. BMS with the right charger. And customer service if needed, parts ect. ????

To be honest it's not so straightforward to deal with Headway due to tax issues. There is a Chinese price which includes sales Tax and an export price. The latter is lower. If you are well established and have a Chinese company with good accounts you can buy at the Chinese price, get the tax back and make some money that way, but I can't imagine it's easy taking money from the Chinese government. If you pay the Chinese price and cannot claim the tax back, you can't have a competitive price. So there are some hurdles that would need to worked through to be able to offer these cells in the way I would like to.

 

[cell_man]

I need to do some thinking on the whole headway thing. I've just returned from a factory visit and it's not gonna be as straightforward as I would have hoped but maybe I could still offer something to the smaller customer that works for them, maybe even bigger customers too, in time. All I can say is that I've been in direct discussion with the manufacturers and if I do decide to offer Headway products it would be with the full support and backup of Headway. That is not always the case.

Cellman, IMO, if you do decide to offer Headway or any other Chinese products, you should be prepared to purchase your own Cell Testing equipment (not cheap) and have a program in place where any Cells you receive that don't pass your own Testing protocol will be shipped back to the supplier @ their expense and credited toward the next shipment of Cells. I know this would seem obvious to someone like yourself, but many are very naieve when it comes to dealing with Chinese mfg. If you want to bounce any ideas off of me you can PM me or better yet - send an email direct to don@lifebatt.com. I think you are a very good guy and would like to see you succeed in your next venture.

Thanks Don. There's a lot to consider for sure.