Which would you rather? Production cs DIY emtb

Which would you rather have? Production VS *nice* DIY eMTB

  • Nice "budget" Production emtb - sub $5000 usd

    Votes: 1 9.1%
  • Nice DIY rig wirh new donor FS mtb and nice motor/battery., maybe controller upgrade too, if needed.

    Votes: 10 90.9%

  • Total voters
    11

NVrider

10 mW
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Aug 22, 2024
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24Freyja24!
For the purposes of this poll, you are interested in a full suspension emtb for hitting up the vast networks of local (tahoe/reno) trails, bike parks, and singletrack and downhill mtb opportunities... but also some zipping around on streets at times.

you are going to purchase either a production e-mtb (sub 5k USD $) like a polygon siskiu t7e, luna x2; or canyon on:spectral cf8.

OR

you are going to DIY it and get something like a polygon siskiu t8 or Marin Rift Zone (for example) and add a CYC or Toseven torque-sensing mid-drive with a nice (maybe 60 or 72v?) battery that you know will fit on the downtube.
 
Picked pre-built. Hanging a battery off a suspension bike has too many compromises. Bet you have to go with custom battery,
 
I built a 60mph capable full suspension bike with a huge range for $2000 a decade ago when batteries were more expensive..

Today i would build the same thing with either a bikesdirect bike or a used bike as the base, have half the power, similar size battery, and probably end up in the $2000 price range.. so why buy an expensive prebuilt that has locked down, proprietary components and probably no support down the line.. it makes zero sense if you understand how to turn a wrench..

Today if the application was mostly street, i would also build a hardtail 29er and put a huge suspension seatpost on it because many newer FS frames do work against you in terms of mounting batteries. Either that, or we throw some ingenuity into the FS frame to make the battery mounting work.
 
I think this depends more on some aspects you didn't really talk about. How you are riding it and your interested/skill in building things. If you are riding it like those production bikes are designed to be ridden, pedal assist then they are probably the way to go. If you want to use the throttle more and are going to be building the bike for some riding styles outside that range there are advantages to a DIY build.

Building a FS E-MTB is probably one of the more challenging ebike builds and if you don't enjoy building things it will probably be not worth the effort. That is the amount of work to get it working really well as an E-MTB will be quite a lot when you actually total it up, which if you enjoy building it that's fine, but if you don't the opportunity cost there could be massive. And yes most people who build ebikes lie to them selves on how much time they really spent.

Also remember for better or worse the end result of the built bike will be somewhat dependent on that time, effort and skill. Which goes both ways, I think my E-MTB is far more capable than any I could buy because I designed the whole thing to do what I want it to do as best as possible (and spent a ton of time on it), and that happens to be being able to ride anywhere physics will allow and compensate for my lack of riding skill with applied technology.

The cost factor I think should kinda be considered after other factors because yes you can build a bike that is better than a production bike for far less money but that will require a lot of time, effort, and skill. Probably one of the larger savings is you can start with a used bike.
 
Picked pre-built. Hanging a battery off a suspension bike has too many compromises. Bet you have to go with custom battery,
True, modern FS “compact” frames are not battery friendly.
However, the freedom to choose a custom battery (voltage, capacity, shape, cost etc) can be an advantage.
My own solution is the “back pack battery” which has several advantages, not least keeping bike weight low for easy handling
 
I think this depends more on some aspects you didn't really talk about. How you are riding it and your interested/skill in building things. If you are riding it like those production bikes are designed to be ridden, pedal assist then they are probably the way to go. If you want to use the throttle more and are going to be building the bike for some riding styles outside that range there are advantages to a DIY build.

Building a FS E-MTB is probably one of the more challenging ebike builds and if you don't enjoy building things it will probably be not worth the effort. That is the amount of work to get it working really well as an E-MTB will be quite a lot when you actually total it up, which if you enjoy building it that's fine, but if you don't the opportunity cost there could be massive. And yes most people who build ebikes lie to them selves on how much time they really spent.
Yeah, I think this is the root of the question, but it also begs (and i don't know the answer); Are DIY bikes substantially less capable at technical singletrack and "bike park" type of riding?

I really don't know the answer to this. I've been watching lots of youtube videos of people ripping it up on production bikes in these environments, and there are hardly any videos of DIY bikes in these environments, but I don't know if that is indicative of the respective capabilities of the bikes, or if the DIY bikes are just under-represented because many of the videos of production bikes in these scenarios are basically promotional.

For example, the following video. Can DIY e-bikes have a similar degree of "response, balance, nimbleness" as the bikes in this video, in this type of riding?

Do torque-sensing mid drive kits like ToSeven/CYC "feel" similar to the factory off-the-shelf offerings in these environments? Or are they clumsy and coarse when the comparison involves technical riding?

I am handy with building things, I have just about every tool possible, and if I were to go the DIY route could very likely be a Polygon Siskiu framed bike, as I have seen several mid-drive conversions on those frames with reasonable battery placement, happy owners, and they represent good value.

I am not discounting the fact that there could be some technical challenges, but for the purposes of this discussion I am mostly wondering if the two options are reasonably comparable in singletrack, bike parks, jumps, technical stuff, downhill, etc? Or is the factory bike vastly superior in these areas?

I know the DIY bike with a throttle and more power would be the more capable option for on-road and non-technical riding and pure speed on flat ground or uphill.
 
Don't buy a bike you're not allowed to maintain yourself if you want to. Don't buy a bike that mandates the use of specific components that only come from one supplier and can be discontinued at any time. Don't buy a bike with self-diagnostic functions you can't look at without making a ransom payment.

The only way we'll escape these lame trends in the bike industry is to refuse raw deals when they're offered. Even if you have more money than you know what to do with, and you have no intention of doing any of your own service, consider the effect that such stupid buying decisions have on the state of the market going forward.
 
It is a very tricky question to answer but I'll give it a go. It depends. That is I think it's possible to build a bike that is more capable in technical riding than one you can buy but it's not easy. I'll present some examples.

You can build a bike that is more tuned to your riding than buying one. For instance I built a bike for a friend, started with an older carbon Santa Cruz Nomad, added a CYC stealth and a very small backpack battery. The whole set is probably lighter than most production bikes and has more power and a throttle (I'll get into what that is important later) and it is very well suited to her use in ways that most production bikes would not. They would be heavier because of much larger batteries that she would never use more than 10% of on any given ride. The added power with throttle allows traversing terrain that would otherwise be difficult in pedal assist only. But there are tradeoffs, obviously limited range, motor is noisy, torque sensor control is OK but not amazing, battery frame mounting would be possible but would require some work.

My bike on the other hand twists some of the dials to min-max things a bit more. My "trail" bike is a 2010 Santa Cruz V10 with an Lightning Rods Small Block, VESC, and prismatic lipo battery. It still weighs about as much as a heavier production eMTB (58lbs last time I checked) but exchanges many features they have for others so it can outperform them on based on my riding style and terrain. I'm not into jumps (although I don't see why it wouldn't jump nicely), I don't generally do all day rides (2-3 hours or so normally), I don't care about pedaling (I have other bikes for that and would rather be tired from technical terrain and distance, not having and asthma attack 2 min in) and I ride in New England where all trails are rocks and roots and everything is weird awkward little hills. So I built the bike to suit, battery is 576wh and could have been smaller, it basically can't be pedaled, only has throttle and has enough torque and power control to climb anything I point it at. Using a throttle through very technical terrain is probably one of the biggest advnategs a DIY bike has. When you can focus on balance and lines while your body is stationary and you don't have to worry about pedal strikes the terrain to skill ratio really goes up. Given the best production bike no way I could climb things I can climb on this bike. The bike may have a 6kW motor on it but I never use anywhere near it's power on rides, it's the control and response that power provides. It has a single speed drive and I have as much torque as I need 100% of the time, no gear changes, no power bands to worry about, no short burst of power that backs off due to a limiter. Does the bike still have improvements that I would like to make, for sure, even a few issues to resolve. Is the battery an insane tetris block, oh yeah. Does the bike have more custom parts than I can count, many of which to solve weird problems that only exist to work around the DIY nature of it, for sure.

I guess my point if I have one is a DIY bike allows you to build a bike more suited to your needs so it can be better, with enough work, but it does somewhat rely on the advantage of being able to be tuned for it's use. That is making comprimises in some areas to benefit others. Which also means if it's use is exactly what the production bike was designed for it will be very hard to beat it.

If you are focused on torque sensing, I've never tried a production ebike so I don't know. From what I've heard and tried, the Tosevens is not amazing torque sensor wise, the CYC after some tuning is OK, my first bike was a TSDZ2 with OSF and that was quite good but the motor power curve is weird so requires a lot of shifting. For my riding I would rather have a throttle even if only using it in particularly difficult sections than a perfect pedal assist, so OK pedal assist + throttle I would prefer of perfect assist no throttle. But that's because I have a lot of areas that are very rocky and technical. If you're doing more fire road climbs and descents then that's different. In fact I think the throttle on my TSDZ2 even with it's picky motor still dramatically improves it's technical climbing capability, it just does it very slowly but a technical climb done very slow is still easier than a technical climb done slightly faster but you have to pedal the whole time.

Now when it comes to descending I don't really know that either has an advantage. I mean assuming you position the weight well the weight balance is pretty similar. Suspension and geometry will be the same. The weight though is a complex subject and there is some personal prefrence. While this may sound crazy as I just said by bike is 58lbs, I try to make it as light as makes sense. So yeah that is heavy but it's also a DH bike with 200/254mm of travel so the bike wasn't light to start and I spent that weight well. I find and I've seen many professional riders comment on the fact that the weight does improve handling over rough terrain. This is due to the ratio of sprung to unsprung mass. Meanwhile if you are very active on the bike and ride in ways and places where that works, so lots of hops and bike reposisions the weight can really be a drag.

I feel like cost wise it's just so variable it could go either way. Maintaince wise I think a DIY bike will require more at least at first but making improvements is part of the fun for me. Again you really have to consider if you just want a bike to ride or a project. A quick an dirty build probably will be worse in at least some ways than a production bike while a well built bike I think can be better but that takes time.
 
So long as the pre-built locks the buyer into proprietary systems and components, I'll build it myself. It is hard for me to express the degree to which I'm fed up with built-in obsolescence and short lived products.

I bought a 3D printer a few years back and it has been one of the most pleasing purchases of my life. It has been invaluable as an aid in repairing items that might have been thrown away or improving other items at a low cost - thus extending their useful lives too.
 
Don't buy a bike you're not allowed to maintain yourself if you want to. Don't buy a bike that mandates the use of specific components that only come from one supplier and can be discontinued at any time. Don't buy a bike with self-diagnostic functions you can't look at without making a ransom payment.
Lemme fix that for you:

Don't buy a bike anything you're not allowed to maintain yourself if you want to. Don't buy a bike anything that mandates the use of specific components that only come from one supplier and can be discontinued at any time. Don't buy a bike anything with self-diagnostic functions you can't look at without making a ransom payment.

Just my two cents
 
Don't buy a bike you're not allowed to maintain yourself if you want to. Don't buy a bike that mandates the use of specific components that only come from one supplier and can be discontinued at any time. Don't buy a bike with self-diagnostic functions you can't look at without making a ransom payment.

The only way we'll escape these lame trends in the bike industry is to refuse raw deals when they're offered. Even if you have more money than you know what to do with, and you have no intention of doing any of your own service, consider the effect that such stupid buying decisions have on the state of the market going forward.
Are you saying that all the off-the-shelf models are like this?
 
So long as the pre-built locks the buyer into proprietary systems and components, I'll build it myself. It is hard for me to express the degree to which I'm fed up with built-in obsolescence and short lived products.

I bought a 3D printer a few years back and it has been one of the most pleasing purchases of my life. It has been invaluable as an aid in repairing items that might have been thrown away or improving other items at a low cost - thus extending their useful lives too.
I just ordered a bambulabs p1s to replace my always-in-disrepair 5yr old 3d printer. Stoked!
 
It is a very tricky question to answer but I'll give it a go. It depends. That is I think it's possible to build a bike that is more capable in technical riding than one you can buy but it's not easy. I'll present some examples.

You can build a bike that is more tuned to your riding than buying one. For instance I built a bike for a friend, started with an older carbon Santa Cruz Nomad, added a CYC stealth and a very small backpack battery. The whole set is probably lighter than most production bikes and has more power and a throttle (I'll get into what that is important later) and it is very well suited to her use in ways that most production bikes would not. They would be heavier because of much larger batteries that she would never use more than 10% of on any given ride. The added power with throttle allows traversing terrain that would otherwise be difficult in pedal assist only. But there are tradeoffs, obviously limited range, motor is noisy, torque sensor control is OK but not amazing, battery frame mounting would be possible but would require some work.

My bike on the other hand twists some of the dials to min-max things a bit more. My "trail" bike is a 2010 Santa Cruz V10 with an Lightning Rods Small Block, VESC, and prismatic lipo battery. It still weighs about as much as a heavier production eMTB (58lbs last time I checked) but exchanges many features they have for others so it can outperform them on based on my riding style and terrain. I'm not into jumps (although I don't see why it wouldn't jump nicely), I don't generally do all day rides (2-3 hours or so normally), I don't care about pedaling (I have other bikes for that and would rather be tired from technical terrain and distance, not having and asthma attack 2 min in) and I ride in New England where all trails are rocks and roots and everything is weird awkward little hills. So I built the bike to suit, battery is 576wh and could have been smaller, it basically can't be pedaled, only has throttle and has enough torque and power control to climb anything I point it at. Using a throttle through very technical terrain is probably one of the biggest advnategs a DIY bike has. When you can focus on balance and lines while your body is stationary and you don't have to worry about pedal strikes the terrain to skill ratio really goes up. Given the best production bike no way I could climb things I can climb on this bike. The bike may have a 6kW motor on it but I never use anywhere near it's power on rides, it's the control and response that power provides. It has a single speed drive and I have as much torque as I need 100% of the time, no gear changes, no power bands to worry about, no short burst of power that backs off due to a limiter. Does the bike still have improvements that I would like to make, for sure, even a few issues to resolve. Is the battery an insane tetris block, oh yeah. Does the bike have more custom parts than I can count, many of which to solve weird problems that only exist to work around the DIY nature of it, for sure.

I guess my point if I have one is a DIY bike allows you to build a bike more suited to your needs so it can be better, with enough work, but it does somewhat rely on the advantage of being able to be tuned for it's use. That is making comprimises in some areas to benefit others. Which also means if it's use is exactly what the production bike was designed for it will be very hard to beat it.

If you are focused on torque sensing, I've never tried a production ebike so I don't know. From what I've heard and tried, the Tosevens is not amazing torque sensor wise, the CYC after some tuning is OK, my first bike was a TSDZ2 with OSF and that was quite good but the motor power curve is weird so requires a lot of shifting. For my riding I would rather have a throttle even if only using it in particularly difficult sections than a perfect pedal assist, so OK pedal assist + throttle I would prefer of perfect assist no throttle. But that's because I have a lot of areas that are very rocky and technical. If you're doing more fire road climbs and descents then that's different. In fact I think the throttle on my TSDZ2 even with it's picky motor still dramatically improves it's technical climbing capability, it just does it very slowly but a technical climb done very slow is still easier than a technical climb done slightly faster but you have to pedal the whole time.

Now when it comes to descending I don't really know that either has an advantage. I mean assuming you position the weight well the weight balance is pretty similar. Suspension and geometry will be the same. The weight though is a complex subject and there is some personal prefrence. While this may sound crazy as I just said by bike is 58lbs, I try to make it as light as makes sense. So yeah that is heavy but it's also a DH bike with 200/254mm of travel so the bike wasn't light to start and I spent that weight well. I find and I've seen many professional riders comment on the fact that the weight does improve handling over rough terrain. This is due to the ratio of sprung to unsprung mass. Meanwhile if you are very active on the bike and ride in ways and places where that works, so lots of hops and bike reposisions the weight can really be a drag.

I feel like cost wise it's just so variable it could go either way. Maintaince wise I think a DIY bike will require more at least at first but making improvements is part of the fun for me. Again you really have to consider if you just want a bike to ride or a project. A quick an dirty build probably will be worse in at least some ways than a production bike while a well built bike I think can be better but that takes time.
appreciate the thoughts!
 
Regarding the battery and battery placement, I have no interest in a backpack battery or doing a custom battery build at this point.

But here's an example of a custom build where a 52v 17.5ah battery easily fits inside the FS frame:

 
Factory ebikes often have beefier parts, is putting a motor on an accoustic bike a recipe for a less durable ride?
 
Factory ebikes often have beefier parts,

You fool yourself. They're just bike parts.

is putting a motor on an accoustic bike a recipe for a less durable ride?

Yes and no. In my observation, running a mid drive bike tears everything up in a hurry. Running a hub motor bike can accelerate wear of things like brakes, tires, headset, suspension pivots, even frames. But it usually lightens the load and extends the service interval for the pedal drive parts.

If you were an XXL elite athlete, you would wear out your bike faster than a geriatric poser does. Same goes for e-conversions that cram elite athlete (or superhuman) power through the gears. That's just the deal. You can get categorically better durability, but not from fashionably modern bike components.
 
Are you saying that all the off-the-shelf models are like this?
Most major brand e-bikes are locked out from the buyer. Basically, if there was a bike brand you could only buy in bike shops before e-bikes became popular, then if that brand offers e-bikes now, those bikes are a trap. It's sad but almost universally true.

Sh*tty department store tier e-bikes are usually serviceable by the buyer. They suck, but you can fix them. Reputable companies seem to have gone all in on customer abuse and against right to repair, which is regrettable. To choose between the two? Don't. Build your own, and not from some fashion chasing toolbag MTB. Build it from something proven, whose replacement parts were available 15 years ago and will still be available in 50 more years.
 
You fool yourself. They're just bike parts.



Yes and no. In my observation, running a mid drive bike tears everything up in a hurry. Running a hub motor bike can accelerate wear of things like brakes, tires, headset, suspension pivots, even frames. But it usually lightens the load and extends the service interval for the pedal drive parts.

If you were an XXL elite athlete, you would wear out your bike faster than a geriatric poser does. Same goes for e-conversions that cram elite athlete (or superhuman) power through the gears. That's just the deal. You can get categorically better durability, but not from fashionably modern bike components.
im not interested in hub motors for this application
 
Most major brand e-bikes are locked out from the buyer. Basically, if there was a bike brand you could only buy in bike shops before e-bikes became popular, then if that brand offers e-bikes now, those bikes are a trap. It's sad but almost universally true.

Sh*tty department store tier e-bikes are usually serviceable by the buyer. They suck, but you can fix them. Reputable companies seem to have gone all in on customer abuse and against right to repair, which is regrettable. To choose between the two? Don't. Build your own, and not from some fashion chasing toolbag MTB. Build it from something proven, whose replacement parts were available 15 years ago and will still be available in 50 more years.
yeah, starting to lean this way.. especially when figuring price. or how far your dollar gets you.
 
Factory ebikes often have beefier parts, is putting a motor on an accoustic bike a recipe for a less durable ride?
It depends on the bike and what you are doing with it. I wanted a durable and reliable commuter. So I installed a direct drive hub motor and used a mountain bike with beefy components. I think I got close to 20,000 miles on it with the only major repair being the need to rebuild the wheel which was probably poorly "engineered" to begin with. I'd start with a different wheel build were I to do that again.

My most recent build uses a steel Trek 820 frame. I have no reason to think it shouldn't last for a very long time.

Also, while I really dislike being pedantic online, I gotta say that using the term "acoustic" in reference to a regular non-motorized bike drives me a bit nuts.
 
Sometimes it's better to buy a pre-built bike instead of trying to build something - i mean, it's possible to find really good deals. For example, few years ago i bought a carbon road bike (not an ebike) on newest Ultegra and decent other components - for a bit less than 900 EUR. Brand new, from an UK bike dealer (it was in January, they had some sale of previous model - you know, not the highest bike season). The cost of the Ultegra drivetrain alone is more than that - if I were to build it myself and buy all the parts separately, i'd pay 2 times as much. Unfortunately, the bike was stolen this year.
There's a general overproduction of e-bike stuff and there are really cheap brands trying to sell something, so it should be a matter of finding something built with decent components.
 
Sometimes it's better to buy a pre-built bike instead of trying to build something - i mean, it's possible to find really good deals. For example, few years ago i bought a carbon road bike (not an ebike) on newest Ultegra and decent other components - for a bit less than 900 EUR. Brand new, from an UK bike dealer (it was in January, they had some sale of previous model - you know, not the highest bike season). The cost of the Ultegra drivetrain alone is more than that - if I were to build it myself and buy all the parts separately, i'd pay 2 times as much. Unfortunately, the bike was stolen this year.
There's a general overproduction of e-bike stuff and there are really cheap brands trying to sell something, so it should be a matter of finding something built with decent components.
The cheapest I'm seeing for FS emtb's that are actual mtb's is something like this: 2024 Polygon Siskiu T7E - Trail eBike | Bikes Online (USA)

Which is still a lot of money. And people selling decent used emtb's around here are asking like 3k+ .
 
Yeah if you don't want to make a custom battery I think selecting a frame that can fit the battery inside the triangle is pretty important to a good result for an E-MTB. Other bike types it's less important. Either that or a smaller battery under the downtube but it has to be small enough to clear the front wheel which can be difficult. You will also need to design some improved way to mount the battery, basically all of the mounting solutions that come with batteries are not really strong enough for real MTB riding.

Motors that hang down do present some ground clearance issues although honestly it only rarely was an issue on my TSDZ2 bike and that depends a lot on your terrain, probably less of an issue where you live (I assume you have lots of big rocks not lots of small rocks).

Price wise I think it the lead overall is still in the DIY even with the steep discounts that are about these days, if you are set on a starting from a new bike for the DIY build similar discounts exist. I've always started with a used bike since even if it's only 1 year old it can be considerably cheaper, does require more looking around though to find one at a good price, ideally in the area, and with the right frame config for a conversion. I say that having picked some bikes that were not ideal frame layout and just made them work anyway. You may also find that a used DH bike may be found for much cheaper than a trail or enduro simply because they are so often bought and not used very much (people buy them even if they live too far away from a lift park to be practical to use more than a few times a year) and suffer from faster hype depreciation. DH does mean battery mounting is a right pain generally.
 
I'd still be DIYing even if it was more expensive than buying a prebuilt because i can actually customize the bike and repair it down the road.

..but it's cheaper.. your only compromise is that you have to accept not having a battery mounted in frame & some software features.

With a prebuilt, your compromise is repairability, customizability, top speed, torque, battery size, support..

ebikes are kind of where the personal computer was in the 90's-2000's; if you want a high power rig, you need to build it.. if you want something other than a low quality unit, you should also build it..
 
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