Why 18650 makes things worse for EV.....

t3sla said:
So what is the failure rate on a can line.
I assume most faults are at the labeling end. .
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What is that saying ?.... "I could tell you,..but then i would have to kill you ! " :D
No, that kind of information is difficult to get accurately for many reasons, and rarely divulged for commercial reasons ..BUT..
By "Failure rate" .. i assume you mean QC failures.. which can be assessed many ways.
Total QC rejects for the whole manufacturing process would normally be in the order of 0.5 -1.0 %.
Wow ! crazy, high you may think...what happened to "6 Sigma" ?
well, the reality is can making is a "Continuous operation " ..materials in one door, finished, packed, products out the other at 3000 per min, and over 100,000 cans "in process" at any one moment !. Within that "continuous operation" is a series of 50+ individual processes, each of which has their own variation and rejects.
Production speed also has a big impact.. imagine a printing machine running perfectly at high speed then a single drop of condensation falls on a printing roller...even with continuous 100% inspection systems, that defect cannot be detected until the printed cans emerge from the process ( >2 mins) ..so that is 6000 defects before you can even react to stop and correct the fault ! ...and that is just one possible fault .. in one process ! ..get the picture ?
 
It really is astounding what rapid production can be achieved. I remember reading about how they changed the 12oz can to be microns thinner, or reduced the pull tab by .04g or something trivial, and it amounted to a 10 train cars worth of aluminum for the year. One "good" thing about can defects is they can be 100% recycled.

A123s had a 12% warranty rate (I assume for competed modules( including cylindricals), but may not even include factory culls), and that was before the pouch fiasco. It really seems like prismatics should be easier to perfect..do the 18650s really have such a big head start pouches can't catch up? Elon+panasonic could do it for 2015 if they wanted, right?
 
With respect to a 3000can/min beverage can line, slow it down by a couple orders of magnitude and feed it only premium materials and tell me what the fallout begins to look like. ;)
 
Believe me Luke, they are absolutely the premium materials. custom alloys specifically developed and refined, specialised inks, lacquers, chemicals, and lubricants that have gone through 40 years of development and improvements.
. Its a "Continuous improvement " industry.
Speed, well that is inversely related to costs, so you know how that works out !.. and every process is fine tuned to the line speed ( chemical and thermal processes also)
 
cwah said:
What will be the highest gravimetric (wh/kg) dense cell commercially available in 2014?
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They are currently working in there labs to replace the graphit with something better but only *** knows if it comes in slomo or rocketfast commercial afailable.
So next step is maybe 30% better wh/kg :lol:
 
Punx0r said:
I feel Luke is spot-on with his comments.

Secondary Li-ion battery tech has been primarily driven by the portable electronics industry. 18650's are used in huge numbers in laptops and (I suspect a knock-on from laptops) power tools. They are a mature technololgy because they are placed in their millions into the hands of retail consumers.

Evs must be such small fry by comparison.

Yes, pouches are used in phones and other portable devices, but not in a standard size. I suspect one of the reason manufacturers use pouches is because they can fit a battery into an awkward space, as a result they tend to be application-specific = relatively low volumes and non-standardised production equipment.
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EV´s have grown to a big market and i bet if they would produce 20Ah pouches they would be selled in billions in a blink of an eye.
 
Hillhater said:
Jolly Jumper said:
... i bet if they would produce 20Ah pouches they would be selled in billions in a blink of an eye.
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:?: why then has LG's new EV pouch plant in the USA been sat idle for months ?
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Don´t know ask them.
Maybe they asking to much price for there pouches (they should and could be 10% cheaper than 18650 cells Wh for Wh)
Zero, Suzuki, Honda only 3 big names who desperately looking after best Wh/kg with best price. Not to mention all the medium and small manufacturers like me and you :lol:
 
Jolly Jumper said:
Hillhater said:
Jolly Jumper said:
... i bet if they would produce 20Ah pouches they would be selled in billions in a blink of an eye.
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:?: why then has LG's new EV pouch plant in the USA been sat idle for months ?
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Don´t know ask them.
Maybe they asking to much price for there pouches :lol:
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You can be sure they "Cost" ( cost to produce) a lot more than they can sell them for ! :lol:
The reason they are officially giving, is because the forecast sales of the EV's they were scheduled for, ( GM Volt) have not materialised.
 
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