Why are more of you DIYers not in the e-bike business?

[Triketech]

Product positioning.
Low cost value offering - takes lots of volume, which means lots of cash to start.

On the other hand starting as a DIY with limited capital its pretty much limited to niche markets or boutique sales. Sales should always outpace production.

Trikes seem to be a niche market where a few DIY's have limited business success, but the market is teeny-tiny.

It doesn't help that we have an layer of litigation in businesses that involve human movement.

 

[Henry111]

The beauty of a dealer building his own e-bikes (instead of buying from an importer/wholesaler) is that he does not have to bet the farm. He can start one bike at a time.

 

[Henry111]

But that battery looks ridiculuosly small. Either its fake, or they use some cheap custom made frame from china, in witch case its not worth $900

I worked on one of those bikes for a regular customer recently. The battery tucks down into the frame tube, which is more of a channel at that location. The bike seemed more than acceptable, like a $1000 bike if it had been pedal only. I was surprised to find out only costs $1500. Most e-bikes seem to cost triple or more what they would if they were pedal bikes.

Chalo, I'm curious: If the shop who sells that bike is right across the river from your shop, why did they bring it to your shop for service?

 

[Chalo]

Chalo, I'm curious: If the shop who sells that bike is right across the river from your shop, why did they bring it to your shop for service?

I can't say. Could be longtime customer loyalty, or it could be that the other shop charges more for service, or perhaps because we're simply more experienced and capable.

Cost of living has gotten fairly high here, without most people's incomes keeping in step. So prices for both bikes and service are important to a lot of folks in the neighborhood, some of whom can only afford to live nearby because they choose to go without a car.

Re: your observations about Pedego-- in this neighborhood, I see far more Pedego cruisers than any other ready-made e-bikes. It might only be because the e-bike dealer's rental fleet is composed of them, but it does perplex me a bit, because they don't seem to be all that good for how much they cost. I think maybe the motorcycle-like riding position appeals to a lot of people who would not ride a pedal bike. I frequently see groups of 40- and 50-somethings riding together on them.

 

[Henry111]

Chalo, I'm curious: If the shop who sells that bike is right across the river from your shop, why did they bring it to your shop for service?

I can't say. Could be longtime customer loyalty, or it could be that the other shop charges more for service, or perhaps because we're simply more experienced and capable.

Cost of living has gotten fairly high here, without most people's incomes keeping in step. So prices for both bikes and service are important to a lot of folks in the neighborhood, some of whom can only afford to live nearby because they choose to go without a car.

Re: your observations about Pedego-- in this neighborhood, I see far more Pedego cruisers than any other ready-made e-bikes. It might only be because the e-bike dealer's rental fleet is composed of them, but it does perplex me a bit, because they don't seem to be all that good for how much they cost. I think maybe the motorcycle-like riding position appeals to a lot of people who would not ride a pedal bike. I frequently see groups of 40- and 50-somethings riding together on them.

Chalo, I find that interesting because Pedego has only ONE dedicated Pedego store in all of Texas--"Fort Worth Pedego, and I happen to know that they sell very few bikes online." While nearby Colorado has six. However, there are two or three more stores in Texas who, though not dedicated Pedego stores, do handle Pedegos as part of their line, the store across the river from you being one of them. Pedego does not put forth much effort in getting stores to handle their bikes. They concentrate on developing their own "single line" dedicated stores. Unfortunately, you gotta lay out about $75 grand to set up one. So build your own for resell!
Chalo, as you watch those Pedego riders, note their ages. Pedego knows the market better than most of the industry.
Yes, they are under powered. Yes, they are over-priced, but they have to include market-up for their dealers. Even so, they are no more over-priced than most electric bikes.
Dam! I don't know why I keep doubting Pedego, when they are my nearest competitor--only 3 miles from my "Long Beach Electric Bikes" location. I guess I just can't help admiring their operation.

 

[The fingers]

Pedego got the local cable company to feature their business in TV ads, so they must be pretty sharp. :wink:

 

[Henry111]

Pedego got the local cable company to feature their business in TV ads, so they must be pretty sharp. :wink:

Yes, Don DiCostanzo is the sharpest guy in the industry and knows the market better than all. He knows the USA market is not for most of those imported bikes designed specifically for the European and Asian markets with their hunched over mountain bike riding positions and pedelecs, accompanied by a lot of "high tech" gatgets, gizmos, bells and whistles--pedelecs, cruise controllers, middrives, cell phones, (How does that KISS principle go again?) And then their are their lines of bullshit advertising like this:
Re pedelec advertising: "60 mile range" On a 10ah battery? Why sure, if you don't mind pedaling for 60 miles.
Gemmey a break!
However, I note that recently, some of those pedelec guys have smartened up and added throttles, which, of course, makes their expensive, failure-prone pedelec systems a redundant feature.

 

[NoFanBoiz]

The market and providers aren't mature enough.

I contacted two seller/builders in the past, Hyena and another Aussie. One didn't get back to me and the other tried to steer me towards using second hand parts.

Even established brands aren't that fantastic. One recently had a crowd funded campaign that seemed lacklustre in signups and those that did now find themselves having their delivery date pushed out due to a technical issue and supplier issue. This from an established brand doesn't help consumers have confidence.

Oh, and there probably isn't that much demand from consumers for hobbiests to build their bikes, at least not enough to make it a living, given the lack of proof of many customer builds being shown on this very forum.

All proof that the e-bike market isn't mature enough.

 

[Henry111]

A crowd funded bike is not an established brand.
It's a wanna be brand.
Furthermore, any one who is so naive as to buy an e-bike online, crowd funded, or otherwise, gets no sympathy from me. Well, maybe a little pity.

 

[markz]

-

Sondors anyone?
:lol:

I have seen one or two with my own eyes.
Seen one today, mid drive LBS store bought, hybrid type bike.
Saw another one a week or two ago, rear hub, hub was huge, on a hybrid, guy said something about speed limited, I laughed at him said no, but he still kicked my ass on my conhismotor 1500W which is more like 1000W.
Year or two ago, saw a Golden Motor.
Handful of gasser bicycles. Unpleasant to my ears.

 

[teslanv]

I do the Ebike hustle, much like Henry. All out of my own garage. Mostly Kits and Custom conversions.
I do best when the customer buys all the parts (From me or elsewhere), and I charge a decent price for my labor to build the bike. That labor fee usually ranges from $300 for really simple installs to well over $1K for high performance stuff. If I can't build it and make $50/hour, it's not worth my time. (I have a good paying job in construction, so I can only justify the ebike biz by making at least what I would working overtime at my day job.)
I have no problem referring customers to Sondors and RadRover, when they start giving me the "I can only afford something really cheap" spiel. :wink:

 

[spinningmagnets]

"I can only afford something really cheap"

That's really the heart of it. I have heard people complain about how crowded airplane seats are, and how bad the food is. I tell them to try first class, where there is lots of elbow room and the food is good...and they reply "yeah, but that costs more".

They shop for the lowest price, and then when there is the inevitable problem (something small, a hall sensor, or a minor tr9ouble-shooting issue), they demand full-service. Why is BMS Battery still in business?...low prices.

I'm about to write about a friction-drive made from a cordless saw. It's ugly, low performance, short range, cheap, and...did I mention ugly? It is the "commercial airline seat" of ebikes.

 

[rumme]

"I can only afford something really cheap"

That's really the heart of it. I have heard people complain about how crowded airplane seats are, and how bad the food is. I tell them to try first class, where there is lots of elbow room and the food is good...and they reply "yeah, but that costs more".

They shop for the lowest price, and then when there is the inevitable problem (something small, a hall sensor, or a minor tr9ouble-shooting issue), they demand full-service. Why is BMS Battery still in business?...low prices.

I'm about to write about a friction-drive made from a cordless saw. It's ugly, low performance, short range, cheap, and...did I mention ugly? It is the "commercial airline seat" of ebikes.

There is some truth to the above . I have built 4 ebikes and cost is always a important factor. Luckily I was happy with a ebike that did around 30 mph top speed which means cost is kept lower because such performance can be achieved by lower cost parts { controller, battery, motor, etc} and the bike itself does not need to be made of high quality materials.

I recently decided that my next ebike, was gonna be something I purchased fully built , more refined and better performance. After a couple months of researching, I found a vendor on this site that was able to do a FULL build at a price that beat all competitors and he was located in the U.S. and provided top notch customer support. This ebike is close to completion and I expect delivery within the next 1-2 weeks. I will be doing a full review very soon .

Anyone that is looking for solid quality at the best prices, and top notch customer service before and after the sale, may want to keep a eye out for my post/review . This applies not only to a full custom ebike build but also for any individual components. The vendor who is building my ebike { is also a endless sphere member} , custom built my ebike to fit my body/ height of 6ft 4" tall / 240 lb weight with a 5KW nominal motor , 60 volt -29 AH high performance battery , quality adjustable controller capable of over 100 amps output, all mounted on a solid motocross styled frame with front/ rear suspension and pro hydraulic disc brakes, for MUCH LESS, then similar ebikes that sell on ebay for $3600 . I believe the days of having to spend $3500 or more, for a solid quality, high performance ebike are coming to a end.

I am looking forward to owning a refined powerful ebike that is capable of 40-60 mph , looks sleek with solid full suspension and all the wiring tucked neatly away along with a hidden battery. I got tired of my home built ebikes looking like a suicide bombers homemade bomb.

 

[Henry111]

rumme, if you want to build an e-bike that will carry a 240lb guy at 30mph, that's OK for you, and I don't knock it accept that you are breaking the law. And hell, I don't care about that either.
But:
In selling to the general public, when someone asks me if I offer a 30mph bike, or want to know if I will convert their currently owned bike to a 30mph electric. My answer is a simple "No" and "Wont".
Re: 240 lbs:
For a customer of that weight, I wont warranty unless they let me install a heavy-duty wheel--heavier spokes, rim, etc--$75.00. I am, of course, speaking of the un-motored wheel, be it front or rear.

 

[rumme]

rumme, if you want to build an e-bike that will carry a 240lb guy at 30mph, that's OK for you, and I don't knock it accept that you are breaking the law. And hell, I don't care about that either.
But:
In selling to the general public, when someone asks me if I offer a 30mph bike, or want to know if I will convert their currently owned bike to a 30mph electric. My answer is a simple "No" and "Wont".
Re: 240 lbs:
For a customer of that weight, I wont warranty unless they let me install a heavy-duty wheel--heavier spokes, rim, etc--$75.00. I am, of course, speaking of the un-motored wheel, be it front or rear.

Having a ebike that can do 30 mph and actually doing 30 mph + are 2 different things. My favorite cruising speeds when using the roadways is around 17 mph. Where I live, we have backroads and dirt trails, which is where the need for more speed is often wanted by myself. Yes, my custom built ebike will have heavy duty motorbike rims/ spokes /tires. This is another reason this vendor that is building my ebike { eyebyesickle} impressed me so much. Once I told him the performance I wanted, he laid out
all the needed aspects to get there, at the lowest price point with the safest components delivered to my door. In other words, this vendor would not be willing to make this type of ebike build with this amount of power, on a Walmart bike, just to save money for the buyer. This vendor also offers the dual switch, which allows the rider to quickly and easily push a button to limit the ebike speed to under 30 mph, if they are riding on the roadways and worried about police.

As far as ebikes that do faster then 30mph that break the law , this hasn't stopped companies building ebikes like the stealth bomber or numerous other models. Common sense goes a long way in life and even though my new ebike has the ability to do speeds above 30mph , I do not plan on doing it on widely travelled roadways or where law enforcement is camping out.

 

[Henry111]

I do the Ebike hustle, much like Henry. All out of my own garage. Mostly Kits and Custom conversions.
I do best when the customer buys all the parts (From me or elsewhere), and I charge a decent price for my labor to build the bike. That labor fee usually ranges from $300 for really simple installs to well over $1K for high performance stuff. If I can't build it and make $50/hour, it's not worth my time. (I have a good paying job in construction, so I can only justify the ebike biz by making at least what I would working overtime at my day job.)
I have no problem referring customers to Sondors and RadRover, when they start giving me the "I can only afford something really cheap" spiel. :wink:

I pay my two college kid assemblers $70.00 per bike. Either one can take a new standard bike (Micargi frames) fresh out of the box, and put it together as an electric (750W/36V/14Ah battery, thumb throttle) in about an hour and a half. Price for the bike: $1499.00. That's about half the price of most 250W bikes on the market. So I am under cutting the market with a more powerful bike. So I just can't understand why more e-bike dealers don't build their own. It ain't rocket science.

 

[zackclark70]

rumme, if you want to build an e-bike that will carry a 240lb guy at 30mph, that's OK for you, and I don't knock it accept that you are breaking the law. And hell, I don't care about that either.
But:
In selling to the general public, when someone asks me if I offer a 30mph bike, or want to know if I will convert their currently owned bike to a 30mph electric. My answer is a simple "No" and "Wont".
Re: 240 lbs:
For a customer of that weight, I wont warranty unless they let me install a heavy-duty wheel--heavier spokes, rim, etc--$75.00. I am, of course, speaking of the un-motored wheel, be it front or rear.

i tend to deal with all the fast e-bikes that a local bike shop wont deal with even then i still turn people away if there bike is clearly a road bike any bikes i do work on the owner has to sign a waver that its off road only ( and if they ride the bike to me they get turned away as they are using it on the road )

but most of the road guys get converted to the idea of an electric moped/scooter anyway once they have a go on one

i dont agree on the 15.5mph 250w law here but i will still do what i can to stay within the law and as it turns out its not that hard to get a motorbike / scooter / moped and convert it why ride a 1-5kw e-bike when you can have 60kw on a motorbike ? each one has its place hence why i will keep my 250w 15.5mph road bike my 6kw offroad bike and now my high powered motorbike eventually i will complete my car conversion and i will have a full set lol

and before you say i bet you ride the offroad bike on the road the only time its been used is on private land ( i might get a 250w controller i can swap out the high power one with so i can ride it to and from private land )

 

[rumme]

I do the Ebike hustle, much like Henry. All out of my own garage. Mostly Kits and Custom conversions.
I do best when the customer buys all the parts (From me or elsewhere), and I charge a decent price for my labor to build the bike. That labor fee usually ranges from $300 for really simple installs to well over $1K for high performance stuff. If I can't build it and make $50/hour, it's not worth my time. (I have a good paying job in construction, so I can only justify the ebike biz by making at least what I would working overtime at my day job.)
I have no problem referring customers to Sondors and RadRover, when they start giving me the "I can only afford something really cheap" spiel. :wink:

I pay my two college kid assemblers $70.00 per bike. Either one can take a new bike fresh out of the box, and put it together as an electric (750W/14Ah battery, thumb throttle) in about an hour and a half. Price for the bike: $1499.00. That's about half the price of most 250W bikes on the market. So I am under cutting the market with a more powerful bike.

Good for ya ! Sounds like you found a nice niche market and can make some $$ at it.

FWIW...the 750 watt ebike you are selling for $1500 + tax , I was able to get a ebike custom built that will be capable of 5000 watt nominal power , a 29 AH battery pack at 60 volts , programmable controller, heavy duty frame/wheels /spokes/hydraulic disc brakes, etc....all for less then 2x the price you sell your ebike for. I am basically getting a ebike that has 5x more power rating in wattage then your ebike, for less then 2x the cost.

The performance I will get out of this custom built ebike, should be enough to make it the last ebike I need or want . I'm not sure that all the buyers of a 750 watt ebike for $1500 will feel the same way as time goes on. Generally speaking, I think it human nature for people to want more speed/power after they have purchased their 1st ebike that only has a 750 watt motor and limited to a top speed of around 20 mph in the most ideal and perfect conditions . This would be especially true of younger ebike owners or people who weigh more, or have hilly roads, etc. .

I am a large guy, bodybuilder and weigh around 240lbs ...so a 750 watt LEGAL motor, would not be of great benefit to me, especially since I live in hill country, where the roadways have some long steep inclines.

 

[Henry111]

zackclark7, re: electric scooters:
Although, I build and sell electric bikes, my personal ride is an electric scooter, even though I don't sell scooters.
I had my guys remove the 48V/20Ah SLA battery and replace with two 60V lithiums. I run one dry. Raise the seat, unplug and plug in the fresh. The more efficient batteries also saved me about 35lbs. Why do I ride it instead of one of my standard e-bikes? When you reach the big 90, you like a little more comfort. In case anyone wants to know, the pedals are in the topbox to show a cop if one ever stops me. Never have.

 

[Henry111]

I also have an Aprilia 125 gas scooter. More speed, longer range, but I spend more time on the electric. It is smaller and just more fun to ride. Since this photo was taken, I have added a wind screen and top box. Also, this Aprilia does not come with a side stand, so I added one--after market.

 

[marvak]

FWIW...the 250 watt ebike you are selling for $1500 + tax , I was able to get a ebike custom built that will be capable of 5000 watt nominal power , a 29 AH battery pack at 60 volts , programmable controller, heavy duty frame/wheels /spokes/hydraulic disc brakes, etc....all for less then 2x the price you sell your ebike for. I am basically getting a ebike that has 20x more power rating in wattage then your ebike, for less then 2x the cost.

The performance I will get out of this custom built ebike, should be enough to make it the last ebike I need or want . I'm not sure that all the buyers of a 250 watt ebike for $1500 will feel the same way as time goes on. Generally speaking, I think it human nature for people to want more speed/power after they have purchased their 1st ebike that only has a 250 watt motor and limited to a top speed of around 20 mph in the most ideal and perfect conditions . This would be especially true of younger ebike owners or people who weigh more, or have hilly roads, etc. .

I am a large guy, bodybuilder and weigh around 240lbs ...so a 250 watt LEGAL motor, would not be of great benefit to me, especially since I live in hill country, where the roadways have some long steep inclines.

Hi, you seem to know about this, so let me ask you a question. I am chosing my first ebike kit and deciding between nominal 250w and nominal 500w motor. My idea of electric bike is to pedal hard and have it go that extra from motor. I already decided I wanted pedelec bike and use 50% extra of my own power, and sometimes 100% if am lazy. I can sustain 200w pedaling with bursts of 400w. For me there is no need for much stronger motor, but I wonder is it better to get 250w motor and push it at 200w or get 500w motor and cruise on it at 200w.

Thank you for answer.

 

[rumme]

FWIW...the 250 watt ebike you are selling for $1500 + tax , I was able to get a ebike custom built that will be capable of 5000 watt nominal power , a 29 AH battery pack at 60 volts , programmable controller, heavy duty frame/wheels /spokes/hydraulic disc brakes, etc....all for less then 2x the price you sell your ebike for. I am basically getting a ebike that has 20x more power rating in wattage then your ebike, for less then 2x the cost.

The performance I will get out of this custom built ebike, should be enough to make it the last ebike I need or want . I'm not sure that all the buyers of a 250 watt ebike for $1500 will feel the same way as time goes on. Generally speaking, I think it human nature for people to want more speed/power after they have purchased their 1st ebike that only has a 250 watt motor and limited to a top speed of around 20 mph in the most ideal and perfect conditions . This would be especially true of younger ebike owners or people who weigh more, or have hilly roads, etc. .

I am a large guy, bodybuilder and weigh around 240lbs ...so a 250 watt LEGAL motor, would not be of great benefit to me, especially since I live in hill country, where the roadways have some long steep inclines.

Hi, you seem to know about this, so let me ask you a question. I am chosing my first ebike kit and deciding between nominal 250w and nominal 500w motor. My idea of electric bike is to pedal hard and have it go that extra from motor. I already decided I wanted pedelec bike and use 50% extra of my own power, and sometimes 100% if am lazy. I can sustain 200w pedaling with bursts of 400w. For me there is no need for much stronger motor, but I wonder is it better to get 250w motor and push it at 200w or get 500w motor and cruise on it at 200w.

Thank you for answer.

I would assume it would be more efficient, to use a 250 watt motor and push at 200 watts , instead of using a 500 watt motor { possibly heavier weight to } and only running it at 200 watts,. The thing is this, are you 100% certain, you will never catch the desire to use more then 200-250 watts of power ? Many of us start out on a ebike of low power, and then decide to upgrade to more wattage/power/speed.

 

[Sunder]

Motors don't really have a power rating. They have a thermal limit vaguely correlated to a power rating.

All else being equal, the motor operated closest to the no load speed, would be most efficient. But even that is a bit silly, because the stator thickness, copper mass and density etc, will have a big impact on efficiency.

 

[Henry111]

And why in the world would you go pedelec unless you are located in Europe or Asia where the law says for it to be classified as a bicycle, you MUST pedal. In the USA the law only says that you must be ABLE to pedal. Although some of those clowns like Bosch and the companies who use their drive would like to see it changed. So, if you are in the USA, just go with a throttle--pedal only, power only, or mix them for power assist.

 

[marvak]

I am from Europe yeah, and I like pedaling. I love riding my bike for my 10mile commute,by pushing it i can sustain speeds above 20 mph. So any limit is out of question, funny to see ebikes here in Slovenia, all limited to 16mph and overtaking them easy.

So yeah I want to pedal, but have my bike go that extra speed. Maybe sustain 30mph, 35 if reallly pushing it.