Why I don’t buy a Bosch midrive E-Bike.

[vodka]

I really thought about buying a Bosch driven Cube Stereo Hybrid 140 HPA fully as a spare Bike. Seems like a reasonable package to a relatively good Price around $3200 in my country. The Bosch drive units are definitely a well tuned piece of German engineering. The motor can claim steep hills utilizing the bikes gears. You can also get some Hacks to overcome the 25 km/h assist limit. I could even get an official licence for going faster than 25 km/h. But, there are problems, such as Bosch doesn’t sell replacement parts. Let’s say one cell is damaged, then there is a e-fuse that makes the whole pack unusable. So if you out of warranty you’re frocked. I read somewhere that the components are electronically chained together so that you can’t use a custom battery pack. If you have a damaged Motor for example you can only get a new one if a authorized seller sends it back within warranty time. If you have a old Bosh bike with a broken motor you can’t get a replacement at all. I also think that the sprockets and chain gonna wear our very quickly as well as the Li-ion Battery. I wouldn’t expect the Bosh drives to last longer 6000 km or 2 Years. So my conclusion is that Bosh drives are a proprietary mainstream system for ordinary people using their bikes occasionally on a sunny weekend, they probably own Apple products as well :lol: .

 

[vodka]

It seems that you are well educated of why to avoid this German trap, but you forgot to mention the price of a battery as new = 600 EUR

Yes it's like buying Ink for your Printer which is more expensive than a new one. The whole Bosch system, you can't buy regularly, costs more than 1800 EUR.
here I found a old price list. http://rower.com.pl/download/bosh%20ebike.pdf. Funny thing according to this Price list the Speed drive unit which is technically the same as the Cruise Unit costs 130 EUR more.

 

[2old]

Haibike, AFAIK the only Bosch unit available in the US in 2014, charged $4,000 for what would have been a $1,000 or so bike without the mid drive unit. The premium for their full suspension bike, winner of ebike of the year at Interbike, was $4,000 (IMO). Either or both reasons or the extra wear on drivetrains when using mid drives make hub drives seem like very good values TO ME.

 

[Cephalotus]

There is lots of long term experience with Bosch middrives in the German pedelecforum.de.

There are reports on third party manufacturers for Bosch batteries (at least for the "classic" series)

And yes, this stuff is proprietary. I assume that at least 95% of the target group (more than 1 million pedelecs have been sold over here) just want to buy a complete bike andhas no intention to add so DIY batteries.

If you prefer DIY there are other options available

 

[Cephalotus]

Well,

I'm a believer in quality products, made from people that are able to live a decent life on their wages and I'm willing to pay for that earning a decent wage, too. This is just my philosophy and there is nothing wrong, if people do disagree here. Most of the time this approach works very well for me, but I'm also not dogmatic on it and there have also been some exceptions either way.

I do agree that there is now a market for 4000 Euro+ pedelecs in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc..., which I find quite "interesting". Obviously there are enough people out there that are willing to invest so much in a bike and many of them buy the newest model each year and have fun. Buying and driving such a bike in my region would be plain stupid though, because the thieves will get it very quickly.

Bosch drives can also be found in bikes costing sub 2000 Euro and there are lots of people willing to pay that much and those people want something (relatively) lightweight, they want a middrive because marketing told them that this is the best option (I disagree here, except for very steep roads or weak riders) and they want something that they can buy, charge and ride. If something gets broken they bring it to the dealer and want to get it fixed as fats as possible. It's said that the Bosch service is quite good and this is one reason why dealers in Europe like to sell this stuff. (It was the opposite with BionX for example, a system that I do like very much, but which has lost almost its entire market share in Germany because of bad quality AND horrible service some years ago. Clearance prices on BionX bikes have been excellent, because not anybody wanted to buy them even at huge discounts. I bought several.)

Keep in mind, that the Bosch middrive is also constructed for the EU Pedelec law, with 250W nominal power (AFAIR peak power drawn from the battery is somewhere around 600W). This is good enough for the 250W law and will get you (slowly) up almost any road imaginable, as long as you have the right gear and keep upright under that conditions. The Bosch system shows its limited power in the faster s-Pedelec class which is allowed to drive up to 45km/h in Germany.

So if you want to have lots of power it is the wrong system, but I would question most middrive systems, because bicycle components are not designed to transfer 1000W+ through the drive train... If you want power a hub motor is better under most conditions.

What the Chinese fail to do well so far is the controls. If you are happy with a velocity- throtte it's ok (I drive one on a Cute 85 that I limited to 11A at 36V and it's ok there), but even a "simple" power- or current-throttle would be much better (I use a 14A 36V XinFeng with such a system, I paid 250 Euro some years ago just for the Austrian made precontroller with some other "smart" functions).
I do like throttle systems, but the pedelec systems are also very nice from time to time. I like them very much in the Bionx (after configuring them to my needs with a hacked software protocol) and I assume that many people also like the power assist modes in the Bosch drive.

Pedelecs are seen as bicycle over here by people (and the law), not as electric motorcycles with some pedals attached. People use electric bikes here for everyday things like commuting. There are more than a million around. Maybe 2-3% are self made (I guessed that number) and I have never ever seen someone riding an e-bike with a controller and a lipoly battery duct taped to the frame except for testing it.

And our police is not stupid. This is one reason why I drive a BionX system. Not just because of the 250W sticker (for a motor that consumes up to 1300W from the battery) and the CE sticker, but also because it is a system, that is known as legal. A 250W sticker on a Chinese motor will not fool anyone over here.

Getting caught with a non legal and not insured motorcycle is expensive (the fee will buy you a very nice electric Hai bike) and being involved in a large accident with such a thing is a very successful method to lose _everything_ that you own.

This is another reason why many prefer to buy such OEM bikes that are legal and covered by insurance companies. Especially people being able to buy a bike for 4000 Euro usually have enough to lose, too.

It's the wrong country for 2000W hub motors in Walmart class bikes with duct taped Lipoly batteries. With more than 1 million electric bikes on our densely populated roads I do see the argument behind that. We have the option for 45kph bikes (DIY options are very limited here) or you can build and ride anything you want, IF you are able to get some licence plates for it. This is doable as others have shown, but it does not come cheap.

(It's similar with our cars. Your are allowed to drive 250kph on the Autobahn, but everyone has to get his vehicle checked at TÜV)

If you live in a country where you can ride "under the radar" with your electric bike/motorcycle everything is fine, but I assume that Bosch is more interested in the market for 1 million+ consumers willing to pay high prices for quality and service (and street legality).

Is it the right system for those that want to go 60kph on the cheap? Hell NO!

---

PS: It's quite schizophrenic: In the German Pedelec forum I often feel the need to argue against the growing market domination of Bosch (because an estimated 95% of all noobs believe it is "the best system" for everyone, because the dealer said so)

 

[vodka]

All German Pededlec forums are full of "uh it's against the law" waffle. That's why prefer ES. My Ping LiFePO4 batteries are still fully working after a several Years as well as my Crystalyte in every day use. My Point is that these proprietary E-Bikes are designed to last no longer than 2 Years and then you have to get a new one, like a Mobile phone. Bosch is trying to build a monopole in this manner. That's not sustainable at all.

 

[vodka]

Funny thing, yesterday a friend of mine who bought a nice Bosch driven Bike four months ago told me that his Battery pack gave up all ready. And it's exactly how I thought I would be. He had to bring it back to the shop for sending it back to Bosch Service. He now got to wait two weeks until he can use his bike for going to work again. The mechanic at the shop couldn't just give him a replacement Battery pack because those Components are electronically tied together. How frocked up is that? .

 

[Cephalotus]

...
A bright example is Tianjin Bewo Technology Co. Ltd, which behind it are engineers of Tianjin University Internal Combustion Engine Research Institute.

Competition is a very good thing for the customer. Electric bkes have evolved big way during the last 10 years, when I became interested in them.

All German Pededlec forums are full of "uh it's against the law" waffle.

Try open-ebike.com. But this one is more about tuning than about DIY. It's not very wise to drive a DIY 2000W system in a German city. Sooner or later police will get you and they are not stupid. You can put a 250W sticker on it or a CA with a "hidden" switch, but this will not do you any good.
This is why I like to ride BionX systems, because it is known as a legal system (incl. 250W sticker from the OEM, CE confirmation, etc...) and you do not need a hidden switch, but you can just swap consoles and be perfectly legal when riding in the city with a legal console. Expensive batteries are the downside, but the risk/fee when caught riding an illegal motorcycle or being involved in an accident without insurance is so much larger in comparison.
So I assume that DIY vs. OEM very much depends on the target market. I like DIY bikes, too, there are many excellent ones and this is why I'm here. But it is a super small niche market over here for good reasons.

Funny thing, yesterday a friend of mine who bought a nice Bosch driven Bike four months ago told me that his Battery pack gave up all ready.

Well, that's possible with any battery. It's not _common_ with Bosch batteries and I asusme it wil be covered under warranty.

The mechanic at the shop couldn't just give him a replacement Battery pack because those Components are electronically tied together. How frocked up is that? .

This is nonsense. The componentes are not "tied together". You need a Bosch battery for a Bosch drive, but you can use _any_ Bosch Pedelec battery that fits mechanically.

Don't spread FUD.

 

[vodka]

It's not very wise to drive a DIY 2000W system in a German city. Sooner or later police will get you and they are not stupid. You can put a 250W sticker on it or a CA with a "hidden" switch, but this will not do you any good. ....

there you go

You need a Bosch battery for a Bosch drive, but you can use _any_ Bosch Pedelec battery that fits mechanically

Yes I have to admit I must have misunderstood something he said. He still got wait 2 weeks or so.


I can not understand what you wanna say. "Bionix is better than Bosch"? I wouldn't get a Bionix for the same reason. You can build perfectly legal reliable Pedelecs using parts which are discussed in this forum.

 

[Cephalotus]

I can not understand what you wanna say. "Bionix is better than Bosch"? I wouldn't get a Bionix for the same reason. You can build perfectly legal reliable Pedelecs using parts which are discussed in this forum.

Maybe it got lost in translation, English is not my native language...

you said in your original post:

... I wouldn’t expect the Bosh drives to last longer 6000 km or 2 Years. So my conclusion is that Bosh drives are a proprietary mainstream system for ordinary people using their bikes occasionally on a sunny weekend, they probably own Apple products as well :lol: .

In my opinion most Bosch systems last quite well (you have to replace the chain more often, but this is typical for mid drives).

And yes, Bosch is a proprietary mainstream system in central Europe (wheer the majority of expensive e-bikes outside of China is being sold) and there are several reasons why people prefer proprietary systems and this is not because they are sunny weekend riders (quite the opposite is true, in Europa, bicycle are used as transport vehicles, I do not even own a car, but five pedelec and I ride them in any weather except heavy storms), but because it gets very, very, very expensive if you get caught on an illegal DIY e-bike.
People also prefer pedelecs with low maintenance and they are not so interested in building their own. Besides making very lightweight Pedeelcs or some special bikes there is very little reason to build your own legal Pedelec over here. I have two of those, too.

And no, I didn't wnat to argue about BionX vs Bosch, I used just myself as an example, why I ride a 1300W (official 250W) Bionx motor instead of a cheaper non proprietary 1300W Chinese motor. One is legal, the other is not. Simple as that. In a bad accident this can be a one million Euro difference and I'm not willing to take that risk.

If you want to ride a street legal speed Pedelec (up to 45km/h) DIY is a very expensive and time consuming option.

A member here from Germany built a street legal 45km/h ebike (very nice) and this was an enormous effort and needed super high mechanical skills and professional tools.

99,9% of the people will just take that 3000 Euro and buy an OEM speed pedelec with a Bosch drive or with some other motor.

This might all be very different in the US or in Australia, Russia, etc..., but in Central Europe the market is like this and here Bosch becomes the dominant player (which I do not like either, btw, because I like competition)

 

[d8veh]

Regarding electric consumption and Mid-drive, when the motor is at near full rpm much less energy is wasted by the motor controller, with the proper gear selection you may use the mid-drive motor in much efficient way compared to hub motors.
My plan is to adjust my driving style according to what is best for the motor and also regarding what is best for sensible use of battery consumption.

There's been loads of discussion on this point on every electric bike forum. Until now, nobody has put forward any definitive data that shows that battery consumption is less on a mid-drive than a hub-motor for the same type of control system, rider and journey. The tests that I've done myself suggest that there's very little difference. On a climb up a mountain test done by a German magazine, the Panasonic hub-motor had significantly less consumption than the Bosch motor. IMHO, this idea that mid-drives are more efficient is a complete fallacy. Having said that, I don't disagree with your comment. It is possible to use a mid-drive in a more efficient way, so your plan is good; however, it's difficult to achieve in practice.The main advantage of mid-drives is that they can climb steep hills with low power, but even that advantage has been eroded with the advent of two-speed hub-motors like the Xiongda.

 

[Kastor]

Is it possible to drive bosch mid drive using 3rd party battery and computer(intuvia) as their proprietary ones are expensive and so 'closed'.. ?

 

[Kastor]

Is it possible in any way to use custom battery and 'computer' with bosch mid drive?

 

[ScooterMan101]

Proprietary systems will in the long run , Fail .
One example.
Just look at Sony , they were the Biggest and the CEO thought that everyone else would use their way .
Look at them now . A Pathetic small shell of a company they once were.

Apple is loosing sales as well, they have been so stupid as to think that people do not want a SD Card/Micro SD card to use with Phones/Tablets.
We, DO , want a Phone and Tablet that can use a Micro SD Card.

Google is Growing , and more people are happier , every day with Samsung / Google/Android !

 

[Kastor]

I know, and don't like that as well but I have an offer of buying e bike with bosch drive without battery and computer adn would buy only if something like that is possible, even with gettign around its controller..

 

[miro13car]

Cephalotus
Where are you?
Police, ebikes, wher?

 

[markz]

All German Pededlec forums are full of "uh it's against the law" waffle.

Sooooo true, I see some people like that (even here on ES forum) and they are probably what you describe in your post from so many years ago. I really dont understand why they are like that. I am sure they go over the posted speed limit all the time and break other traffic codes. Heck I would even wager a bet they blow through red lights and stop signs without stopping on their bicycles. The " 'uh it's against the law' waffle" is amusing sometimes, but its concerning too. What a sad state of affairs to be in when concerned about that, but let other crimes slide.

I gotta wonder where our Greek "Kiriakos GR" is. I always loved his broken english tangents.

 

[Cephalotus]

Cephalotus
Where are you?
Police, ebikes, wher?

Germany.

The rules here are simple. Driving an uninsured "Kraftfahrzeug" in public (anything with more power or motorspeed than a Pedelec) is a "Straftat" and this is quite expensive if they get you. Because it is not insured (typical Privathaftpflicht does not cover Kraftfahrzeuge) in case of an accident you have to pay for everything. Cost can easily exceed 1 million Euro if you injure someone badly. Not even "Privatinsolvenz" will help you because it is not possible to cover a "Straftat".

"Tuning" a Kraftfahrzeug is something completely different because you still have insurance. Worst thing to happen is regress from insurance company and this is limited to 5000 Euro. I could financilly "survive" 5000 Euro quite easy but not 1 million Euro. Driving such a thing is just an "Ordnungswidrigkeit" and the fees are quite cheap. In worst case they may keep your vehicle though.

Obviously many people see things differently, I myself would not like to risk my entire (financial) life. In other parts of the world people are more relaxed about risks, how many US Americans are not even insured against getting ill? Starving slowly to death when a cure exists or financially ruining your familiy because of medical bills is simply unimagineable over here. The problem is, if someone causes an accident with such an uninsured Kraftfahrzeug and is not able to pay, not only the driver might be ruined but also the victim of the accident. Imho this an asocial behaviour.

Insurance (Haftpflicht) for my street legal 45km/h speed-pedelec is around 35 Euro/year. I made my decission.

 

[Cephalotus]

... I really dont understand why they are like that. I am sure they go over the posted speed limit all the time and break other traffic codes. Heck I would even wager a bet they blow through red lights and stop signs without stopping on their bicycles. The " 'uh it's against the law' waffle" is amusing sometimes, but its concerning too...

Obviously you do not understand.

Driving an uninsured Kraftfahrzeug is a "Straftat" in Germany, ignoring the speed limit or crossing red lights or "tuning" your (insured) car is a "Ordnungswidrigkeit". This is a HUGE difference.

"Straftat" is something like stealing, raping, personal injury, etc...

The real problem (in Germany) is not lack of "Betriebserlaubnis" for the DIY vehicle (this is a "Ordnungswidrigkeit"), the real problem is the lack of insurance driving that vehicle on public streets.