Wilderness work bike

[Photon]

Hello all,
This is my first post on this forum, but I have been lurking on and off for quite some time. Thanks you for all the great information, test results, and experience that is compiled here. Long live the fora gnurds!

I'm building a bike for my father to use for his archeology and anthropology field work here in Colorado. The bike will be used to cover those last miles into a site on very rough two-track roads and single track deer trails, as well as bushwhacking when required.

The general requirements are:
Plenty of power for hill climbing
Top speed ~25mph
Reasonable weight for rough terrain and possible portage over fences etc.
Range of ~20 miles (for now)
Good comfort
Good payload capability
durability/reliability/simplicity

We are using a Surly 1x1 as the foundation, 26"x2.7" downhill tires, 7x3 gear set, racks, fenders, hand guards, lights, etc...

The beta power system is a clyte 408, 36v/20a clyte controller w/hall sensor, 36v/8ah NiCad, cycle analyst. Battery and controller are mounted on a rear rack in beta, permanent location for these components will be in the main triangle as low as possible.

It was quickly determined that more power is required. We are thinking of upgrading to the following-
5306 or 5305- clyte rear hub
51v/13.6ah LiFePO4-http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=4986
72v/50a clyte controller-http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11564

I would very much appreciate any feedback on this project and the components that I'm considering.
Thank you,
Josh

 

[dnmun]

how did you determine that more power was needed?

if you are gonna carry big panniers in back, then maybe you can get another 36V nicad pack and carry them in the bottom of each pannier in the rear and then since you have space where the V brake normally would be then mount the controller there. that leaves the rack and the top of the panniers available for carrying stuff. and you can mount front panniers also to carry stuff.

36V x2x8Ah=576Wh, assume 28Wh/mile=>20.6miles

the big C'lyte is even heavier. did you consider a geared motor?

 

[Photon]

The need for more power was determined by my dad's lack of fitness coupled with the high rolling resistance of these fat tires and the very steep terrain that will be encountered.

I believe the 530X motors add about five pounds over the 408? The new battery weighs the same as the old NiCads. So that would put the entire bike at about 65lbs.

The NiCads are getting close to two years old and it would be nice to upgrade to something long lived like the LiFePO4 chemistry.

I've done some researching on the geared motors, and I like them. My thought was that sticking with the c-lyte stuff will be a known quantity, and I can use the cycle analyst with no modification. My dad wants to climb steep hills with very little pedaling so I figured it would be wise to go with very over-rated components in the hopes of making things last.

 

[dogman dan]

I like my 5304 in a 24" rim a lot. But to run it 20 miles a LOT more battery would be needed, and it aint gonna weigh 65 pounds anymore.

Several ways to attack this one and stay lighter, mostly by being able to keep the battery weight down, like 15 ah of 48v lifepo4. Whichever you choose, put a temp sensor in the motor, or on the axle stub to monitor temps when doing loooong uphill climbs.

1 4011 clyte motor.

It won't have the top speed of the 408, but will be able to climb good enough. Even with a WE motor similar to your 408, I find you can get a lot of assist without overheating the motor on a climb by keeping the speed low, and grinding away in a low gear at high cadence. I'm not so fit or young myself, but I find I can do this 100 watt output for a long time pretty easy. The 4011 will be a tad more efficient at lower speeds.

2 Bmc 400 or 600 watt gearmotor. Obvious advantages to the gearmotors for lower speed hill climbing. I really loved my heinzmann gearmotor, but it got hot faster than brushless ones. There is one of those for sale in the selling section now, but 20 miles uphill would require some stops to cool it. The other gearmotors , like bafang , fusin etc would do it too especially if you set it up with two motors, and could use one till it heats then the other. They would have a bit less power than a BMC, but can still provide a lot of uphill assist.

For 20 miles of dirt riding, I'd want a suspension fork, but not if it meant giving up the fat tire.

Actually, the 408 may work fine, and you may only need it depending on how steep. I have found riding steep trails took an attitude adjustment. All those years on dirt bikes gave me the all american more is better attitude. On the ebikes, I found using the lowest possible ammount of motor power worked best, heating the motor less, draining the battery slower. At 5 -7mph you still cover a lot of trail fast compared to walking, and with a lot more ability to handle the steeper bits than a pedal only bike.

My current dirtbike has a 5304, as I said, and I love it. Not so much for the power since I don't have the high power controller or high amp batteries yet. But I love it that I don't worry about toasting the motor on a 5 mile steep climb anymore. But it's a lot heavier that a 408, and if I ever run out of power, it coggs a LOT. But it is the motor for long hard rides, beating all others for its capacity to keep on going.

 

[Ypedal]

Nice bike !!!! i love the surly frames !

That 408 will perform alot better at 48v, i'd try that first ! ( slap on a 12v sla in series for a quick test ! the 36v controller takes 48v no problem )

Avoid that batteryspace pack, it's made from 18650 cells, and alot of them.. they will die at 40 amps, and forget 50 as the BMS will not allow it and you will get cutouts. Those 18650 cells are ok if used gently but bounding around on rough trails will be murder on them.. ( broken spot welds anyone ! )

An X5 would have alot more power potential but if this bike has to be lifted over fences, with a full load of batteries it will take to power it.. your dad had better be a strong man ! the X5 weighs double the 408.. ie: X5 = 25 lbs before rim, tire, tube..

I'd avoid geared hub motors in the rough stuff.. the sharp hits will be hard on the internals.. geared motors have good torque at low speeds but are a precision machine and don't take very kindly to off-road riding imo. the crystalyte motors are rough and tough, they take a beating without too much complaint.

consider a 48v 10ah headway pack from : ( not sure if they are in stock yet or not.. )
http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=H4810

 

[pwbset]

Ypedal... you still have that 4013 for sale? That would work really well for this application if they could throw 72v at it. That would climb most anything.

 

[Ypedal]

That's kind of a mis-conception in a way...

All 4 series crystalyte have the potential for the same ( or close to ) amount of power output, only difference is at what rpm they do it at..

Using a slower rpm motor ( like the 4013 ) allows you to pump the volts to it and still retain a reasonable no-load rpm.. pumping 100v into a 405 would be insanity as the controller would be currrent limiting all the time.. where a 4013 at 100v will peak max amps off the line but quickly settle down, giving a much more usable and efficient throttle range.

edit to add : oh, yeah i still have the 4013's, one may be sold however.. reminder that i forgot to answer a PM .... :|

 

[Photon]

Thanks all,

Thanks for the heads up on the 18650 cells! I like that Headway pack, but there is only 127mm between the cranks, so that square pack won't fit. I guess it's time to build a pack with the headway cells. I think 10ah will be fine, the 20 mile range is not that critical, as most trips will be well under that distance. I just need to decide what voltage to run.

Regarding the motor choice and the weight of the 53XX, my father feels that fence crossings etc. will be rare and if we end up with a 70+ lb bike it will be worth it for the unflinching climbing ability. I prefer to over spec components and run them well below peak, even if that means some extra cost and weight. Does anyone have a link to the 53XX KV numbers for the different turns? These fat tires on the 26" rims are close to 29er circumference, I'm sure the 5306 will give plenty of top speed with 48v or above.

I noticed that the 7250 controller we were wanting from maxwell65 is sold out, can anyone recommend a source for these? I think that this is one component that is a for sure choice, no matter the final motor and battery choice.

So to recap the current thinking-

Custom narrow configured Headway 10ah pack at >=48v
C-lyte 5306
C-lyte 72v50a controller


Once again thank you all for the input

 

[EVnewbie]

You are going to be using a 50 amp controller with the 10Ah Headways?
The 15Ah Headways are coming out, they might be a better option for you. Maybe split the batteries into two 25.6V 15 Ah packs?

 

[pwbset]

Photon... have you found a retail source for the 5306 or is that still special order from Kenny @ Clyte? I thought that winding was like a European only thing or something. And just for your reference I climbed 1,600ft to work all last summer with a 4011 @ 84v without issue (work at a ski resort in Montana). Point being overvolting a 4 series is definitely an option that will save you at least 10lbs of weight and a couple hundred bucks. They can take a beating and be plenty reliable. Having moved up to a heavier 504 this summer I can definitely say I'm noticing the weight difference, but also enjoying the extra power admittedly even though it's way overkill (6.3kw peak so far ). I think my perfect world would be a 4013 @ 84v+ or a metal geared hub at 48v.

 

[Photon]

You are going to be using a 50 amp controller with the 10Ah Headways?
The 15Ah Headways are coming out, they might be a better option for you. Maybe split the batteries into two 25.6V 15 Ah packs?

These cells can deliver 5C continuous from what I understand? Am I wrong on this?

I didn't know that a 15ah cell was coming out soon, that would be better to have the higher capacity always. I'll check into those, thanks.

pwbset-
No source on the 5306 yet, I just saw it on the C-lyte home page, I didn't realize that it was hard to get here in the states. What kind of lead time is required for the special orders from the factory? I've purchased all my electric power train components from ebikes.ca up to this point, but their inventory seems to be hurting, I'll have to do some digging for parts sources for sure.

 

[dogman dan]

A 5305 will work fine, but you aint gonna ride 20 steep uphill miles on a 10 amp battery, no matter what type. Think 1 ah per mile. Two 15 ah 48v pings would work great, or even a 15 ah ping and an 8 ah nicad paralelled if a thou and a half is too steep for batteries. You really are going to need a LOT of battery to get very far up any colorado trail or jeep road I ever hiked. Think 100 pound bike, 25 pounds of motor and 30 of battery.

For shorter rides, like 10 miles, just add the 48v headway pack to what you have. And add motor temp monitoring so you know when to stop and cool it a bit.

 

[dnmun]

i doubt if the headways will do 5C continuous. but that is only 10 minutes for the whole pack so not much use anyway. i assume he does not have charging spot where he ends up even if he makes it in 10 minutes.

if you are gonna use such a small pack then maybe consider a geared motor or maybe a 9Continents motor which has less cogging because he is gonna be pedaling a lot.

 

[pwbset]

Think 1 ah per mile.

Good advice there. Up that to 1.5ah or more if you want to do it at 20mph.

i assume he does not have charging spot where he ends up even if he makes it in 10 minutes.

This is another reason I'd do a 4013 @ 72v+. With a couple packs you switch to 36v parallel all the way down and regen the snot out of it.. get to the bottom, switch back to series @ 72v and zoom, zoom off you go. A 4013 @ 36v will start decent regen at like 8-10mph. :lol:

 

[Ypedal]

The 4013's are SLOOOOOWWWWWWW..... even at 72 ! :lol:

 

[swade]

Will there be a lot of mud or snow? If so, might want to consider front wheel drive with a beefed up fork/torque arms. I'd recommend a decent kickstand if you'll be stopping frequently and need to get gear stowed on the bike.

 

[dogman dan]

Slooww yes. But how fast do you want to be going up or down a trail in Colorado. Those aren't the marshmallow mountians. Called the rockies for a real good reason. Much past 7 mph on lots of those trails will get you a taco rim for dinner. Imaging carrying an 80 pound bike + equipment out of there. Yikes.

1 ah per mile of the uphill, of course, he'll get a free ride or at least a low amp ride down. On my 5304 dirtbike the other day, I climbed 800 feet of vertical by map, plus lots of extra vertical on the ups and downs. Returning downhill to the car I traveled 8.5 miles on 7 ah. Most of the grade on that trail was pretty mild. Rocky mountain hiking trails are designed for foot, horse and mule travel, so there will be plenty of 10-15% grades. Up in those 14 ers, he may need 2 ah per mile. The only reason my battery lasted as long as it did on that ride was because I was pedaling a lot and using the motor only as an assist, to travel about 5-7 mph. I can blow that 8 ah battery in 4 miles easy if I haul ass.

 

[Photon]

Will there be a lot of mud or snow? If so, might want to consider front wheel drive with a beefed up fork/torque arms. I'd recommend a decent kickstand if you'll be stopping frequently and need to get gear stowed on the bike.

Yes on the center stand, don't want to be laying this baby on the ground every time you stop, and for loading and unloading gear (as you mention).
I don't know about the mud and snow use, usually the field work happens when the ground is clear of snow at least, but you never know...
The beauty of an e-bike is the flexibility with swapping components, we could always put on a front motor when the conditions demand.

I feel that I should clarify the requirements that we are looking at for this bike, especially regarding range. I don't think a 20 mile straight climb will ever be needed, as most trips will be an out and back at around 5 to 10 miles total. A 15ah pack will definitely be better than 10, but adding additional packs to the arsenal is always an option in the future. A photo-voltaic charging station (or just a couple of deep cycle optimas) can be set up for multi-day work, with the truck as a base camp.

One other issue that I have been thinking about with regard to these fat grippy tires running at low psi, is spinning the tire on the rim with a big torque motor. Has any body had a problem with this, and are there any bead-lock systems that work well for mountain bike tires?

 

[dogman dan]

Too low a pressure on the tires will result in a pinch on the rim flatting the tire when it hits a rock at too much speed. I learned the hard way to keep my dirtbike tires pretty hard, at least 45 pounds. The 3" tires will have the pinch problem less, with more room before the rim bottoms out on the rocks, but I'd still run them on the hard side for rougher trails.

The battery choice will be dependent on the motor choice, and there will still be a bewildering number of choices. One option, though heavier ,with some appeal would be some 36v 8 ah nicads for the motor you have. With the right controller, you could easily swich from 36v 8ah, 36v 16 ah, and 72v 8 ah if you have the steep sucker to climb. The total battery weight for two packs would be around 32 pounds. You could have one on the bike and one on charge if you only needed one to get there. The nice thing about the nicads is that they are a little bit cheaper, and can be run at 5c, where lots of lifepo4 cells max at 3 c. That setup and a 4011 should work ok. A 48v 15 ah pingbattery would also be a good match for your existing motor.

If you go big, with a 5306, then you would need higher amp output, either by better cells, or just a lot of em. So for that motor, two 48v 15 ah lifepo4 would do it, or 15 ah of higher output cells like the headways.

Since you have the 408 allready, I'd be real tempted to just buy it a 48v 15 ah pingbattery and run it with a thermometer to monitor temps. Anything that's really too steep for that motor is just going to end up being so awkward to ride that walking some of the trip may be the best option anyway. If you have 5 miles of mostly 5% grade the 408 will get up it easily. If you have 2 miles or more of 7% or steeper, wrestling the bike up it will be a lot of work. Fine if it's for the fun of it, but as a labor saver, the steeper trail may be too rough and rocky to want to ride it anyway, not to mention the fallen logs and stuff that's allways across those trails in the boonies. So in the end, you may not need so much range, and end up using the bike to save time on easier trails, and just walk the ones that are tough.

 

[Photon]

Thanks for all the input Dogman I'm going to end up with a hand full of different components before this is all over. At this point the controller is the weak point, the pack and the motor both have more to give. Even when the big motor comes into the mix this 408 might be better for some things. The Surly Pugsley frameset has 135mm front fork spacing, so who knows where all these parts may end up? :wink:

I've been riding mountain bikes for awhile and have had a few pinch flats, I don't think we will be running these tires low enough for that to be a problem at the slow speeds this bike will be running, but a big motor might spin the rim if one of these tires is really hooked up between a couple of rocks or something. I'll dig around and find a solution on standby.

Btw, great pics from your rides Dogman, I lived in NM in the 90's, got to see a lot of that beautiful country. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Photon]

Took the bike out to Chutes and Ladders trail, which is part of the 18Rd trails north of Fruita. A nice 10 Kilometer loop with a steady two track climb up to a series of technical climbs and descents followed by a very tight single track roller coaster finish. This terrain is well beyond the design specs the machine was created for, and everything is holding together nicely. The bike is working flawlessly, but definitely needs more power. The 48v headway pack should be here by the end of the month, combined with the 35amp controller, this bike will be that much better. Almost twice the Whrs and over 2 times the Watts to the motor.

 

[monster]

that aluminium rack is gonna break if you put batteries on it. swap it for a steel one right away. leave the motor and controller but double up on batteries. parallel would be best to protect the batteries. drawing 20a from an 8ah pack is a recipy for disaster.

 

[Photon]

that aluminium rack is gonna break if you put batteries on it. swap it for a steel one right away. leave the motor and controller but double up on batteries. parallel would be best to protect the batteries. drawing 20a from an 8ah pack is a recipy for disaster.

This pack is going to be replaced with a Headway pack soon (10ah @ 48v for now, this will most likely go up to at least 20ah), the batteries will stay in the triangle, having that weight up on the rack is no good, and like you said, the rack can't take it. The bike is so much easier to deal with when the weight is down low in the frame.