Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

[kdog]

You know this thread is like renewable energy... Its the most rapidly expanding topic here :lol: :lol:
I'm going to go out there and say it...
This thread will NEVER make it to 200 pages by the end of the year.. :wink:

 

[kdog]

Oops I just tipped over a page... No matter

 

[Hillhater]

The “ Godfather” of alarmist BS, Al Gore, is in Australia (via private jet, no doubt leaving all the fossil fueled lights on in his mansion back home ).. to “train” cult members in how to make hockey sticks .

This is the man who told us in 2006 that we had “ten years to save the planet” and that the Arctic would be ice-free by summer of 2014. Etc etc..

https://m.washingtontimes.com/

 

[Hillhater]

You know this thread is like renewable energy... Its the most rapidly expanding topic here :lol: :lol:

Nahh !....you obviously have not seen this one.. :wink:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&p=1471822#p1471822
:lol: :lol:

 

[furcifer]

Australia has never had a Nuclear power plant..Federal laws prevent one being built,

I just found this out. Why? It's the dumbest law I've heard of, so what's the reasoning?

A number of reasons.but basicly an early “green” or anti nuclear movement in the 70’s together with the fact that Australia had discovered enormous resources of coal and natural gas which were much cheaper to use for electricity than Nuclear development.
But we got close....work started on constructing a nuclear power plant in the late 60’s, but a change of Government stopped the project,
We dont have any Nuclear weapons either
Remember Australia had been used for the British A bomb tests in the 60’s ,and have a research reactor for producing medical isotopes.

That's not good. That decision is going to prove very costly for citizens over the next 25 years by my guess. Without nuclear and hydro I think Canada would be in a very bad place today.

 

[Cephalotus]

But no, if you track the actual price of electricity by the hour, the amount of solar or wind being generated has little effect on the price. If you have access to similar stats for your area I'd take a look at them and be able to tell you.

For Germany the merit order effect of solar PV alone is 4,60€/MWh:

https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/ise/en/documents/publications/studies/recent-facts-about-photovoltaics-in-germany.pdf (see page 12)

 

[furcifer]

But no, if you track the actual price of electricity by the hour, the amount of solar or wind being generated has little effect on the price. If you have access to similar stats for your area I'd take a look at them and be able to tell you.

For Germany the merit order effect of solar PV alone is 4,60€/MWh:

https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/ise/en/documents/publications/studies/recent-facts-about-photovoltaics-in-germany.pdf (see page 12)

It would take a bit to sort out the German scheme. You've got exempt users, surcharges, incentives, financing etc. And I don't know what the makeup of the grid is by sector.

I do know there has been a lot of talk about how much of a waste of money it was, something like billions of dollars? I'd have to look more into it though. On the plus side I believe the German initiative was a major factor in reducing PV costs world wide.


eta: at just a cursory glance I can see comparisons to nuclear and gas, as well as the associated costs if there were a meltdown.

What if there were a hail storm or earthquake? Is solar completely insulated from disaster? I realize a nuclear disaster will have environmental consequences, but those aren't the only losses to consider when making a comparison. It's just something I don't think is considered.

 

[furcifer]

But no, if you track the actual price of electricity by the hour, the amount of solar or wind being generated has little effect on the price. If you have access to similar stats for your area I'd take a look at them and be able to tell you.

For Germany the merit order effect of solar PV alone is 4,60€/MWh:

https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/ise/en/documents/publications/studies/recent-facts-about-photovoltaics-in-germany.pdf (see page 12)

I'm looking at generation by sector and PV is 5.9% in 2016. I can't see how 5.9% can influence anything. At least mathematically.

This EEG surcharge is amazing. You force people to pay for something because you say it's good even though without forcing people to pay for it it doesn't necessarily seem all that great.

If you're going to be forced to pay for something, especially when the guy next to use is using waaaaay more of that something than you are and isn't, why shouldn't you be allowed to direct it to what you want?

Personally, if I lived in the Fatherland I'd prefer my EEG tax went into building new nuclear plants. Especially with what looks like a generation profile heavily dependent on coal (39%?)

 

[Hillhater]

....t would take a bit to sort out the German scheme...

Unless you have time to waste,..its not necessary .
All you need to understand is the correlation between Germany’s R E installation program, and the rise in electricity price to the consumer.
....To the point where they are one of the most expensive in the world.

 

[furcifer]

....t would take a bit to sort out the German scheme...

Unless you have time to waste,..its not necessary .
All you need to understand is the correlation between Germany’s R E installation program, and the rise in electricity price to the consumer.
....To the point where they are one of the most expensive in the world.

I think that's to be expected.
I've been interested in alternative forms of generation for years. There's been a lot of talk, and a lot of interesting projects when it comes to solar, but nothing has come of it even with all of the money being thrown at it. It's a wonderful and romantic idea but I think the facts speak for themselves. Plants are very good at collecting and storing solar energy. They did for millions of years, then humans came along and depleted those reserves in a couple hundred.
Since powering planes and large machinery with electricity is problematic, I've always figured it would be better to let plants do what they do best then exploit them ie. biofuel. At least in the grand scheme of things this seems to make more sense.
Even that comes with its own set of problems.

 

[Dauntless]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/08/world/arctic-beneath-ice-intl/index.html

 

[furcifer]

Here's one question I have as it relates to global warming, and life in general.

Why so many cars?

The automobile is a tool. It gets you from point A to point B. There are certain designs that are required for certain applications but for the most part your standard 4 door could probably service 90% of the population, with the other 10% being trucks or some vehicle with carrying capacity.

Fuel is precious and allowing the world to make choices on how they use it ie. the many vehicle options that exist, seems dumb

I had a 1990 VW fox that got close to 40 mpg and ran flawlessly in the time that I owned it. It carried me and the wife and the dogs from point A to B reliably and inexpensively. I think I paid $800 for it used in 2001.

Humans are dumb and selfish. I really don't see how we can solve climate change as long as this mentality exists.

 

[Hillhater]

“Why so many cars. “ ?
How many pairs of shoes do you have ?
How many pairs of pants ?
How many children ?
......answer,....because we can. !
We dont “need” all these multiples of items, but we have the ability and desire to own them, so in a free market economy, we choose to own multiple cars, a Pick up, a SUV, and maybe a sports car as well as the 4 door sedan !
That is how the consumer society works, the more you consume, the more manufacturing flourishes and the economy grows.
The alternatives are not attractive...
Think East Germany, before unification, or China before they discovered their own “hybrid Capitalist/Dictatorship.
The “free Market” is self regulating. If fuel becomes scarce and expensive, the consumers will reduce their consumption and the number/type of vehicle they own.

 

[furcifer]

The “free Market” is self regulating. If fuel becomes scarce and expensive, the consumers will reduce their consumption and the number/type of vehicle they own.

It really isn't. If it were we wouldn't be talking about a carbon tax.

Humans have a really poor sense of value. Teachers make $25K while the Kardashians make $250M. We use our freshwater to maintain the color of our lawns. We have homes with rooms we don't need or use. We place more value on how our cars look than how they function.

I think this is at the root of the problem. Climate change requires us to put a value to things like ice caps and polar bears. Not even for today, but for tomorrow and beyond. That's going to be difficult to do.

 

[billvon]

That is how the consumer society works, the more you consume, the more manufacturing flourishes and the economy grows.

And the environment dies.

Think East Germany, before unification, or China before they discovered their own “hybrid Capitalist/Dictatorship.
The “free Market” is self regulating.

Nope. Think Enron, Standard Oil, the Triangle Shirtwaist Company. The market will use any method - underhanded, dishonest, callous, deadly - to win. Regulation can usually (not always) prevent that.

 

[ZeroEm]

Always think of myself as a tree hugger, then do the math on solar panels to see the dollar per watt they are selling at.
then think I am no better than the rest. what ever the cost it is worth it.

Summer is here and the air pollution in my town is getting bad the news channels warn about filling up ice machines and cutting grass because of the ozone is bad but they never talk about not driving the cars.

 

[Hillhater]

That is how the consumer society works, the more you consume, the more manufacturing flourishes and the economy grows.

And the environment dies.

Think East Germany, before unification, or China before they discovered their own “hybrid Capitalist/Dictatorship.
The “free Market” is self regulating.

Nope. Think Enron, Standard Oil, the Triangle Shirtwaist Company. The market will use any method - underhanded, dishonest, callous, deadly - to win. Regulation can usually (not always) prevent that.

.
I was comparing national Economic systems, not individual Company Management practices !
IE Free Market Capitalism, vs Socialism/Communism/Dictatorships,..or other idealistic systems.
Do you really think there is no Greed, Fraud, Organised Crime, or Corruption in Russia, China or any of the “Socialist”/ dictator based , societies. ??

Of course the Free Market system is self regulating. Otherwise prices would just be astronomical !

 

[billvon]

I was comparing national Economic systems, not individual Company Management practices !

I was giving you examples of where the free market is NOT self regulating without external regulation. Fortunately, national economic systems adopt regulations as a result of abuses, and the abuses are thereby diminished.

Do you really think there is no Greed, Fraud, Organised Crime, or Corruption in Russia, China or any of the “Socialist”/ dictator based , societies. ??

?? No. Who claimed that?

Of course the Free Market system is self regulating. Otherwise prices would just be astronomical !

Yep. Slavery made cotton very cheap. But we decided that that sort of "self regulation" was not OK - and passed laws to prevent it.

Nothing wrong with well regulated capitalism. But that regulation is critical.

 

[billvon]

Summer is here and the air pollution in my town is getting bad the news channels warn about filling up ice machines and cutting grass because of the ozone is bad but they never talk about not driving the cars.

Many cities and states are now using HOV lanes and congestion pricing as a way to reduce people driving.

 

[Dauntless]

The automobile is a tool. It gets you from point A to point B.

No, that doesn't cover it. The car is a talisman. You can do invocations on the meaning of car.

In 1927 the Model T assembly line shut down. No long after it's best year ever. People bought 6-7 of the last of them to ensure they'd never had to drive anything else.

Paved roads had made the Tin Lizzie too slow and to unstable at what speed it could reach,, so they were parked on the side of the house until some kid offered $10 to buy his first car. Magazines held contests for your best use of one. NASCAR, drag racing, Sprint cars, all born of the opportunity to use old T's.

Even Volvo's, the cars for people who hate cars, inspire the loyalty of those who love to hate them best of all. And to the opposite extreme, the people who dropped dead 50 years later still driving what was left of their Model T's.

If cars were just tools to very many people, this post would not be so incredibly true. . . .

 

[cricketo]

NASCAR, drag racing, Sprint cars, all born of the opportunity to use old T's.

In the modern age NASCAR is like watching a person being beaten to death and laughing at that. Substitute person for climate

 

[furcifer]

The automobile is a tool. It gets you from point A to point B.

No, that doesn't cover it. The car is a talisman. You can do invocations on the meaning of car.

In 1927 the Model T assembly line shut down. No long after it's best year ever. People bought 6-7 of the last of them to ensure they'd never had to drive anything else.

Paved roads had made the Tin Lizzie too slow and to unstable at what speed it could reach,, so they were parked on the side of the house until some kid offered $10 to buy his first car. Magazines held contests for your best use of one. NASCAR, drag racing, Sprint cars, all born of the opportunity to use old T's.

Even Volvo's, the cars for people who hate cars, inspire the loyalty of those who love to hate them best of all. And to the opposite extreme, the people who dropped dead 50 years later still driving what was left of their Model T's.

If cars were just tools to very many people, this post would not be so incredibly true. . . .

You can say the car is a replacement for a penis, but they're still just tools.

Beyond that it's superfluous and wasteful. It reminds me of the buffalo. When ever there is an abundacy humans can find a way to squander it.

 

[ZeroEm]

Here lot of houses have more cars than parking. A few houses down I counted 11 at one house. These people out of there minds. It is illegal here to have a car not tagged and insured, unless... kept covered up not in the street or in an enclosure.

The city does not enforce the law unless people start complaining. Used car companies run Texas along with the oil companies. Would not let Tesla open a dealership here. People here are so brain washed and the city is fighting hard not to have public transportation. People here think I am crazy but ask me crazy questions about EVs.

A lot of talk about leaving EVs plugin over night as to use the batteries to power homes. One island made the news tonight, (they use diesel generators at night and panels and wind turbines during the day) moving to all EVs to power the island at night.

 

[Hillhater]

One island made the news tonight, (they use diesel generators at night and panels and wind turbines during the day) moving to all EVs to power the island at night.

Which “island” is that ?
Im not aware of any island, being totally reliant on wind/solar even just for daytime.
How does an island have enough EVs to provide power all night ?
How/where are those EVs charged ?
As for the use of ICE,s....
Until a PRACTICAL, AFFORDABLE, alternative becomes AVAILABLE, folks will continue to use any means of transport that is PRACTICAL,AFFORDABLE, and currently AVAILABLE.

 

[ZeroEm]

It was on KLRN, think it was the BBC news, I will go to the website and find the story and the name.