Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

[leisesturm]

Ahh Jack !....such a wit !...you do come out with some interesting analogies. 1 :lol:
..but staying with your chosen theme... ..
..Climate change panic/alarmists are those folk who call an ambulance, admitt themselves for surgury to amputate both legs, to cure the pain caused by an INGROWN TOENAIL !
( what they really needed is a Frontal Lobotomy ! )

Do you really imagine an orthopedic surgeon would just amputate both of a persons legs on their say so alone? Climate Deniers are like Covid Deniers, nothing is going to convince them. Not even their death. My wife's best friend is a nurse in the UK. Covid is off the chain there. Worse than in the US. Seriously worse. Covid deniers are breaking down hospital doors and carrying off patients. Like in Liberia during an Ebola outbreak. They are destroying vaccine. But get this, they are also in those very hospital beds dying of Covid. Except that they refuse to admit it. Even while gasping their last breaths they are insisting they don't have Covid. Covid is a hoax.

The argument for me isn't whether or not Climate Change is man caused or not. Why does that matter? When objective data like temperature graphing show warming of the planet year over year does an intelligent person insist objective data has been faked? For what reason? Where is the MONEY in limiting the continued sale of Fossil Fuels? Somebody just got a wild hair to screw over Exxon-Mobil?

Covid deniers are running around spreading Covid everywhere and killing innocent people. But they are also dying. There is a justice in that. Climate deniers are killing the planet and taking lots of other sentient life down with it. But they are also dying. Humanity has forgotten, or it never really knew how hard it is to remain an apex predator. When a species is no longer evolving successful strategies to survive. It doesn't. We're done and it won't be Climate Change that delivers the coup de grace. That doesn't mean there isn't Climate Change. It just means that Climate Change isn't our biggest challenge. Carry on.

 

[Dauntless]

The argument for me isn't whether or not Climate Change is man caused or not. Why does that matter?

Because that is really the only thing that matters. If it's NOT man caused, if it's 100% natural, the only thing for us to do is insulate ourselves from it. Destroying the world wide economy to fight it would be stupid if it was not man caused. If it is mostly natural working out our contribution to it would be good but again, there would be no value to destroying the world economy over it if it's mostly going to happen with or without us.

So you can't even have a plan of action until you have a clear understanding what influence over this mankind even has.

 

[Hillhater]

Ahhh ! Finally tracked down this thread..despite the best attempts to hide it.!
...Spot on Dauntless...it seems that some people really do not grasp the basics of the debate and the implications of the decisions being made.

And which “Woke” genious has decided that discussing alternative energy sources, or even AGW, is a “TOXIC” discussion ??

Obviously more people are gulible than even i realise.

 

[Hillhater]

Do you really imagine an orthopedic surgeon would just amputate both of a persons legs on their say so alone? ....

Of course not !.. that is the point of the comment.... ( but wasted on you apparently ! )
Likewise , i find it hard to imagine a civilised world would commit to destroying its economy and future security on the advice of some unproven theorys and the wailing of a 16 yr old , or the deception of a slimy lier like Al Gore...
.....but apparently they are, despite convincing evidence to the contrary.

The argument for me isn't whether or not Climate Change is man caused or not. Why does that matter? ...
......Where is the MONEY in limiting the continued sale of Fossil Fuels?

The exact cause of any climate chance should be the argument...
..it matters because if get that answer wrong you make a BIG mistake.

Where is the money ???
..ask some one like Musk,..he seems to be doing fine on Carbon Credits etc..
.. or ask the UN why they want $100 billion every year in contributions from the signatories of the Paris agreement, and watch who benefits from it.?

 

[TheBeastie]

And the arguments continue to go in circles!
Here is a good wrap of this thread now.

https://youtu.be/J1Bz6L--ZCU
[youtube]J1Bz6L--ZCU[/youtube]


The creator is on Twitter https://twitter.com/isaboemeke/status/1353483276908785664?s=20
https://i-sodope.com/

 

[ZeroEm]

There is no Toxic Discussions, that is just made up to quite you!

 

[Dauntless]

And which “Woke” genious has decided that discussing alternative energy sources, or even AGW, is a “TOXIC” discussion ??

No no, it's the fighting.

Remember, the most important thing is to shirk any responsibility for your problem and blame someone else.

But if the most important thing was discussing this at least as well as Beastie's video, it wouldn't be in Toxic now.

. . . . on the advice of some unproven theorys and the wailing of a 16 yr old , or the deception of a slimy lier like Al Gore...

I don't think of Al Gore as lying, I think he lost sight of the matter and screwed it up. Which gets back to the matter of gaining the understanding so that you know for sure what the 'Inconvenient Truth' really is.

 

[JackFlorey]

Likewise , i find it hard to imagine a civilised world would commit to destroying its economy and future security on the advice of some unproven theorys and the wailing of a 16 yr old , or the deception of a slimy lier like Al Gore...

If we listened to people like you we'd still be riding horses. "Those cars will kill you! They will utterly destroy the horse based economy. Children will starve. Women's uteruses will fall out. So why would you listen to that Nazi-coddling anti-Semite Henry Ford over the good commonsense advice of your local hostler?"

Time will pass you by, as it has all the rest of the luddites over the years.

 

[Hillhater]

....
Time will pass you by, as it has all the rest of the luddites over the years.

Odd ?..... i thought i was the one advocating a Nuclear powered future,...
..... and you were one of those wanting to keep wasting money on Windmills, and intermittent sunshine. ?

 

[JackFlorey]

Odd ?..... i thought i was
The one advocating a Nuclear powered future,..... and you were one of those wanting to keep wasting money on Windmills, and intermittent sunshine. ?

I get all my power from that "intermittent sunshine." Enough to run my house and both my cars.

I know you can't (or won't) understand how that's possible. That's fine, because other people do - and they are doing it. History will pass you by.

Here's something else that you won't be able to process, and will confuse and depress you:

"Installing solar panels in your home doesn’t just reduce your own electricity costs but also the ones of your entire neighborhood, a new study showed. Researchers have found that solar photovoltaic (PV) owners are actually subsidizing their non-PV neighbors’ thanks to the lower costs of solar compared to fossil fuel power generation. . . . .

A group of researchers at Michigan Technological University wanted to look at whether solar panels were driving up electricity costs for people without panels. It’s a common argument been used over the years by utility companies, governments, and regulators to slow down the progress of PV, especially among homeowners and small businesses.

But the researchers found that the opposite was actually true, with PV owners subsidizing their non-PV neighbors. This is due to the avoided costs for new grid, reserve, and generation capacity, as well as for avoided operation and maintenance and environmental and health liabilities due to fossil fuel power generation. So in other words, solar panel owners were reducing the costs of their neighbors instead of increasing them."

https://www.zmescience.com/science/own-a-solar-panel-youre-probably-lowering-energy-costs-for-all-your-neighbors/#:~:text=Researchers%20have%20found%20that%20solar,to%20fossil%20fuel%20power%20generation.&text=PV%20technologies%20have%20had%20a,cost%20reductions%20and%20improved%20economics.

 

[leisesturm]

Few people in the world know about a place called Sellafield in the UK which was home to the 5th worst nuclear accident in the late 1950's. My wife was born blind around that time and she was sent south to Liverpool to be taught Braille and other blindness skills with about 85 other children, the vast majority of whom were born to parents that had somehow received fallout from the Sellafield accident years earlier.

Every American lifing on the West Coast is some fraction of a micro-Seivert 'hotter' than otherwise would be the case from fallout from the Fukishima reactor meltdown. Thousands of people in the state of Oregon have died from WWII era nuclear waste stored at the Hanford repository. The entire planet is 'hotter' than would otherwise be the case from American above ground testing of nuclear weapons in the 1950's. There is no known allowable level for background radiation.

The INEVITABLE cost cutting and design compromises that WILL be part of any nuclear infrastructure make it absolutely untenable in my opinion. No. Just no. We don't have the discipline to do it right and will just kill more people and make the planet more deadly to future generations if allowed to transition the energy grid to nuclear.

'Intermittent'. Could it not be said that gasoline is 'intermittent'? You can drive the average anything for five or six hours and then you need to pull off and fill up or you are going to need AAA. Fracking involves the saturation of groundwater with SOLVENTS. Oil drilling ... actually oil mining in the 21st Century is so expensive that more money is spent extracting the oil than it is worth!

Most of us buy new toothpaste tubes when it isn't easy to get it out. We have names for the people who cut the tubes open with scissors and ... ...

 

[Hillhater]

Few people in the world know about a place called Sellafield in the UK which was home to the 5th worst nuclear accident in the late 1950's.......

Im certain it will not change you opinion of Nuclear power , but
.....even fewer people know that the Sellafield (Windscale ) fire ..which obviously was a Nuclear disaster......was infact a plant dedicated to the production of weapons grade Plutonium and Tritium, and operated by the Ministry of Supply ( Military) with no facility to generate electricity.
In reality it was a “munitions” production facility
There were other Nuclear reactors for power generation nearby, but they were not involved in the Windscale fire. The Ministry of Defence were pushing for more production beyond the design capacity of the Pile and were aware of the risk !
There is little similarity between the Windscale facility and any current or future nuclear generator plants.

 

[Hillhater]

I get all my power from that "intermittent sunshine." Enough to run my house and both my cars.

So you are completely “off grid” on home solar, then Jack ?
..because if you are not, then you are not getting all you power from solar.

"Installing solar panels in your home doesn’t just reduce your own electricity costs but also the ones of your entire neighborhood,

Dont you just love “Another study from a group of Reserchers “ ....obviously completely removed from reality.
Show me a country where the uptaake of Solar has reduced the cost of electricity to other consumers ?
And someone tell the AEI or Lazards that Rooftop solar is cheaper than ANY other form of generation ?

 

[Hillhater]

Is the German Electricity model America’s future?

Before the days of climate alarmism and hysteria, .....: Germany had one of the most stable and reliable power grids worldwide.
.in the 1990s, environmental activists, politicians, climate alarmists and pseudo-experts decided they could do a better job at generating power in Germany and eventually passed the outlandish EEG green energy feed-in act and rules. They insisted that wildly fluctuating, intermittent power supplies (from wind and Solar) could be managed easily, and done so at a low cost.

Fast forward to today: The result of all the government meddling is becoming glaringly clear: the country now finds itself on the verge of blackouts due to grid instability, has the highest electricity prices in the world, relies more on imports and is not even close to meeting its emissions targets.
..“The German government has recognized that in the future electricity system, it will no longer be possible to satisfy every demand at all times. Therefore, the control of the consumer side should be put on legal feet.” […] “Controllable consumers such as heat pumps, electric heaters and wall-boxes, i.e. charging stations for e-mobiles, would then be switched off variably at times.”
To deal with the power grid instability problems, Germany’s Economics Minister Peter Altmaier presented a draft law that would allow electric utilities “to temporarily cut off the charging power for e-cars when there is once again too little electricity available”, an idea known as “peak smoothing”.

“Shutdowns due to power shortages have been practiced for some time. Aluminum smelters, for example, have to put up with having their power cut off for limited periods of time,”
This is the sorry state of Germany’s once highly regarded power grid.

 

[leisesturm]

I am certainly not claiming that wind, solar ... geothermal ... I'm not claiming that these energy schemes are fully deployed. Is anyone? So ... what? There MUST have been a time when that crude stuff y'all's worship ... there must have been a time when coal (and peat) were more entrenched. Y'all's would literally have us all go offline WHEN the oil runs out because the alternatives would not be ready.

What is wrong with an orderly migration away from Fossil Fuels? And, no, nuclear is simply not part of that paradigm. When, and, or if, y'all's can store the spent rods on the MOON, then maybe. Sellafield wasn't a powerplant, ok, I did not know that. I don't think it makes much difference. Chernobyl was a pwerplant, Fukishima was a powerplant, Three Mile Island was a powerplant. WHAT informs an opinion that a new plant built today would be ANY less prone to a disaster?

The opposite actually. The greed factor is so highly developed in 21st Century humans that a disaster would be inevitable. I simply can't imagine a solar array mishap causing radiation levels to rise all across Europe. Energy doesn't get much freer than Solar. Y'll's should be ALL over dat. Instead you want to either pollute with the combustion byproducts of Fossil Fuels and/or deal with the environmental consequences of drilling rig blowouts, pipeline ruptures or other calamities. And some want to continue playing with nuclear fire that has already killed so many and given so many others disfiguring cancers and disabilities ... ...

Frontal lobotomies ... that's what y'all's think people that want a renewable energy posture need? Well, y'all's first. If we need them then everybody does.

 

[Hillhater]

You seem to be an “Idealist”...i prefer to be “realistic”.
Sular energy is certainly not free, nor is winf generated electricity..se the chart above.
But more than that , neither of them can “realisticly” provide power 24/7/365 on a consistent reliable, basis,
Read the german situation ..they are leading the world in Solar/wind transfer.

 

[Dauntless]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/15/weather/winter-storms-weather-monday/index.html

Exactly why wind, solar, etc.are dicey. How much are their problems in weather contributing to this? My mother's formerly off-grid home still has the solar and the generator for when the solar didn't work, (Often) but she gets her power like everyone else now.

I wonder how many people can't go to work because they can't charge? There is no perfect solution. It's the pretending there is that scares people away.

 

[Hillhater]

Texas... a state that leads in Wind power, is not having a good time currently..
75% of the state is experiencing blackouts due to power shortages..

“We are experiencing record-breaking electric demand due to the extreme cold temperatures that have gripped Texas,” said ERCOT President and CEO Bill Magness. “At the same time, we are dealing with higher-than-normal generation outages due to frozen wind turbines and limited natural gas supplies available to generating units. We are asking Texans to take some simple, safe steps to lower their energy use during this time.”

Source: http://www.ercot.com/news/releases/show/225151

I wonder how their Solar is performing ?

And,..From another ES thread .....but illuminating !

Thanks “Stealth chopper.”

 

[nicobie]

It's foolish to not have backup power.

 

[Hillhater]

The World Health Organisation have issued a report on their projections for causes of death in 2060.
It is. Interesting to see what effect the WHO believe the much hyped CLIMATE EMERGENCY is going to have on deaths .
From thei data, it seems that five to ten times more deaths will be caused by ELECTRIC CARS than by any effects attributed to climate change !
Infact, most every other cause of death seems to way out number those predicted from Climate issues ?
Has nobody allerted the WHO about the Climate Emergency ?

 

[leisesturm]

Texas... a state that leads in Wind power, is not having a good time currently..
75% of the state is experiencing blackouts due to power shortages..

As I understand it, one third of Texas power generating ability is offline. Are you saying a third of Texas' power comes from wind? You must be, otherwise you are deliberately misinterpreting the CEO's statement to create a false equivalency. You are better than that.

 

[leisesturm]

The World Health Organisation have issued a report on their projections for causes of death in 2060.
It is. Interesting to see what effect the WHO believe the much hyped CLIMATE EMERGENCY is going to have on deaths .
From thei data, it seems that five to ten times more deaths will be caused by ELECTRIC CARS than by any effects attributed to climate change !
Infact, most every other cause of death seems to way out number those predicted from Climate issues ?
Has nobody allerted the WHO about the Climate Emergency ?

From 7 years of age until 45 years of age I lived in NYC. During all those years the air quality consistently ranked worst in the country. So bad it was unrated. Well past the FFF rating that could be measured. You could see the brown haze over the city from any tall structure. The number one effect of breathing NYC air for a lifetime is premature death from CARDIOVASCULAR AND/OR RESPIRATORY DISEASE. The number one reason NYC's (and LA's) air is so bad is the outlier number of motor vehicles that operate within the city limits. Tailpipe emissions are more responsible for NYC's air quality than all other sources combined.

The WHO know what they are talking about. You do not. You twist existing data to support LIES about the state of things. To what end I do not know. ES is hardly as influential a site as Reuters, Forbes or Business Week. WTF? Maybe ES is a practice dummy for deniers to perfect their stagecraft before heading out to the wider world of NPR, CNN or MSNBC?

If electric cars are on the roads in numbers in 2060 they will be AUTOMATED. They will not be killing significant numbers of people. They will still be an insignificant fraction of vehicles still on the road. These non-automatous vehicles which WILL be killing people at present rates. Both directly in collision accidents; and indirectly through deleterious environmental and health impacts from their emissions.

Being overweight can kill you. Driving a motorcycle can kill you. Does this mean that because you drive a motorcycle you shouldn't care about how much you weigh? Does it mean that because you do NOT drive a motorcycle that you shouldn't care about how much you weigh? Or does it mean that because you are one obese SOB that you should visit a Harley dealership?

 

[leisesturm]

You seem to be an “Idealist”...i prefer to be “realistic”.
Sular energy is certainly not free, nor is winf generated electricity..se the chart above.
But more than that , neither of them can “realisticly” provide power 24/7/365 on a consistent reliable, basis,
Read the german situation ..they are leading the world in Solar/wind transfer.

Who is claiming that solar energy is 'free'? Oil isn't free either. It (used to) bubbles up from the ground but it has to be refined which has a cost. It has to be marketed and distributed and etc. That didn't stop Exxon-Mobil. Why should the fact that Solar Energy extraction requires photovalic or photothermal arrays stop a Solar Energy contractor? Gasoline cannot provide dick if you run out of it. You must periodically fill a FUEL TANK to continue getting energy from gasoline. The fuel tank STORES energy. A BATTERY stores energy. Storage batteries are an integral component of any rational alternative energy scheme.

We have had a two day power outage in my area. My neighbor has a generator that fires up the nanosecond a power outage occurs. It has run continuously for the last two days. My other neighbors have been plotting murder because the noise is unbearable. It surely cannot be practical for all of us to have generators running continuously whether we are using power or not just because the Grid is temporarily down. If the generator manufacturer had specified a healthy amount of battery storage as an integral part of their product the actual generator could run for a fraction of the time that it must.

What effect is my neighbors generator having on the air I'm breathing? Who knows but it must have one, I'm only about 30' away from the thing. What if I got one too? The people on either side of me? What if we all went out and got 5Kw generators? After this fiasco with PGE I'm sure more of us will. I wonder how many new generator sales will take place in Texas over the next few months. What if, instead of ICE motors hooked up to electric motors to generate electricity mechanically (electromagnetically) we had efficient solar arrays? What if the power companies based the grid on photovalic arrays that did not have moving parts to seize in ultra-cold or icy conditions.

 

[Dauntless]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/16/business/texas-power-energy-nightmare/index.html

So the Texas Hill Country used to have free electricity overnight as an offset to making their money during the day. Good ole' wind power was best there at night. Don't know if they still do that. Probably not right now.

 

[Hillhater]

Who is claiming that solar energy is 'free'?

..no one,..but you sait...
“ Energy doesn't get much freer than Solar..... ‘
...And i directed you to the data which shoes the relative costs which shows solar is far from the cheapest means of generation.

...Gasoline cannot provide dick if you run out of it. You must periodically fill a FUEL TANK to continue getting energy from gasoline. The fuel tank STORES energy. A BATTERY stores energy. Storage batteries are an integral component of any rational alternative energy scheme.

I thought we were talking about Grid power ??
What have gas tanks or gas generators got to do with that ?
...ahh ! I forgot, , gas generators are the only reliable option for millions of Texans at the moment !
Batteries to provide continuity for a RE based grid are a Falacy..impractical in any realistic energy scheme !
....( but gas tanks are much cheaper, and quicker, easier, to fill than a battery ! :wink: )

We have had a two day power outage in my area. My neighbor has a generator that fires up the nanosecond a power outage occurs. It has run continuously for the last two days. ......
....... If the generator manufacturer had specified a healthy amount of battery storage as an integral part of their product the actual generator could run for a fraction of the time that it must.

Which would have made it impossibly expensive for any normal consumer to buy, and hence why it was not offered.

.... what if the power companies based the grid on photovalic arrays that did not have moving parts to seize in ultra-cold or icy conditions.......

......if you do not know the answer to that, just look to the sky during the next storm.....or even just any night !