Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Hillhater said:
Most EV owners dont have much choice in the battery chemistry used.
Most dont carry an effective fire extinguisher on their Ebike or EV ?
So, why even worry about how much water is needed ?..
If your EV / Ebike flames up what is likely to be the most readily available suppressant ?
.... A specialist unknown fire extinguisher, or a hose pipe ?
Let us know when you find a more effective , available, suppressant.

We currently do not have a choice, but will in the future.
I hope that the solid state batteries render my battery bong idea irrelevant. I know of no other effective lithium fire suppressant than stopping the problem at the core by depriving the reaction of oxygen.
 
Consequences of the move to Hydrogen usage..
Water demand...
the NRC predicts an annual production of 60 billion kg of hydrogen. Webber’s analysis estimates that this amount of hydrogen would use about 19-69 trillion gallons of water annually as a feedstock for electrolytic production and as a coolant for thermoelectric power. That’s 52-189 billion gallons per day, a 27-97% increase from the 195 billion gallons per day (72 trillion gallons annually) used today by the thermoelectric power sector to generate about 90% of the electricity in the US. During the past several decades, water withdrawal has remained stable, suggesting that this increase in water intensity could have unprecedented consequences on the natural resource and public policy.

Power..
Depending on the fraction of hydrogen produced by electrolysis (Webber presents estimates for values from 35 to 85%), the amount of electricity required based on electrolysis efficiency of 75% would be between 1134 and 2754 billion kWh—and up to 3351 billion kWh for a lower electrolysis efficiency of 60%.
....For comparison, the current annual electricity generation in the US in 2005 was 4063 billion kWh.
That is a 75% increase in the current generation capacity !

https://phys.org/news/2007-10-analysis-requirements-hydrogen-economy.html
 
ZeroEm said:
At one point in time worried about water use but it turns back into water when used. Guess the problem is we never used it but the earth has quite a bit of water. :shock:
Yes but .....unfortunately 98+% of the water is SALT water....which is no good for human consumption ...OR..electrolysis for making Hydrogen, Or growing food,.( and most other useful purposes !)
Of course you can desalinate water...but that requires even more power to be generated !
 
by Hillhater » Sep 13 2021 6:07pm

ZeroEm wrote: ↑Sep 13 2021 10:55am
At one point in time worried about water use but it turns back into water when used. Guess the problem is we never used it but the earth has quite a bit of water. :shock:
Yes but .....unfortunately 98+% of the water is SALT water....which is no good for human consumption ...OR..electrolysis for making Hydrogen, Or growing food,.( and most other useful purposes !)
Of course you can desalinate water...but that requires even more power to be generated !

We have plenty of fresh water on the East Coast of USA. Going to get a lot more this week. I do see your point, with limited fresh drinking water. Sorta like our food supply being turned into Gasohol.
 
Hillhater said:
Of course you can desalinate water...but that requires even more power to be generated !
You know how you keep going on and on about how solar doesn't have enough storage? Desalination is the perfect application for that. Pump the water to a reservoir when you have power, and let the pressure do the work when you don't. Or just dial the flow way back during times of low power, and go to 100% production when the solar is producing. Win-win.
 
JackFlorey said:
Hillhater said:
Of course you can desalinate water...but that requires even more power to be generated !
You know how you keep going on and on about how solar doesn't have enough storage? Desalination is the perfect application for that. Pump the water to a reservoir when you have power, and let the pressure do the work when you don't. Or just dial the flow way back during times of low power, and go to 100% production when the solar is producing. Win-win.
You have a short memory Jack...remember back in mid June we had the same discussion on here ?
I showed how it would need 2200 ft head to produce the required feed pressure for that “gravity” powered Desal process.!
But i do agree Solar is a suitable power source for desal plants that do not necessarily have to be continuous operation.
.....you just need a LOT of desal capacity, AND a LOT of Solar to supply the water for those Electolysers to produce their hydrogen..
Then try figuring the efficiency losses by the time that hydrogen is converted back to electricity again for a car, truck, or train etc!
 
Hillhater said:
You have a short memory Jack...remember back in mid June we had the same discussion on here ?
I showed how it would need 2200 ft head to produce the required feed pressure for that “gravity” powered Desal process.!
Funny, guy I talked to at the desalination plant thought differently. Will go with the expert over you I think.
 
So , your “man at the desal plant” has convinced you that the plant can continue operating when its feed pressure drops from 1000psi, down to 150 psi (300’ gravity) ?
Why do you think they dont just run those plants at lower pressure all the time ?..it would save a fortune in power costs !
Let me know when he has demonstrated that trick !
 
I just know that desal is expensive as hell for the water you get out of it - versus sucking water out of the ground.
 
neptronix said:
I just know that desal is expensive as hell for the water you get out of it - versus sucking water out of the ground.
Yes, primarily because of the pump power (electricity). required to achieve the 1000 psi process pressure at a worthwhile flow rate.
Process equipment and membrane replacement are other significant capital cost items.
Locally, the Desal plants built in panic after the 2000 drought are known as the “Electricity bottling” plants due to their horrendous power consumption !
 
Ground water everywhere is dropping. The biggest aquifer in the USA is getting lower and lower every year, its drying up. Parts of India the same, happening all around the world. But, every 10 yrs there is great advancement in technology and medical. Not sure how Neil deGrass Tyson words it exactly but Space Exploration has a trickle down affect, the tech learned from Space Exploration gets used in day to day life. But government run space is not really a thing anymore, these days its all about private enterprises like Elon Musks SpaceX and Amazon guy space company, doubt they share their findings with others.
 
Whats mind boggling is hydrogen on the atomic level is near 100% nothingness yet its the energy of the future ?

Whats going on here, where is the energy stored ?
 
Thats interesting ill have to look at the electron relationship of other gases try and build a picture for myself.

Ive been trying to get my head around the burning aspect of it how can we burn nothing and get useful energy out and from what i can understand its the relationship with its surrounding air that causes the water to be a by product and in atmoshpere the nitrogen also reacts and makes the nox contribution meaning its low co2 comes with the same particulate issues as petrol engines.

Leads me to think fuel cell is a better option in the long run but im sceptical on goverments to make any clear decisions to pull a rabbit out of a hat anytime soon.
 
Combustion of Hydrogen is a difficult issue with respect to by-products.
Even at its ultimate, the main by product is water vapour......a very active “greenhouse gas” !
But the energy solution is simple and well understood and already implimented.....Nuclear !
 
Hillhater said:
Combustion of Hydrogen is a difficult issue with respect to by-products.
Even at its ultimate, the main by product is water vapour......a very active “greenhouse gas” !
But the energy solution is simple and well understood and already implimented.....Nuclear !

Totally agree on nuclear for grid use its a no brainer.

Instead of countrys running the nuclear well past its decommission date they should be trying to shut them old plants down and replace with new but thats not the case.

After doing basic research without a fuel cell the energy needed to make hydrogen and pump it into high pressure vessels makes it no better than a biofuel for the environment in practise.

So the jcb video i linked was good and i liked the lords approach but thats a business man and he wants to cut his cost's on manufacturing and long as he can sell the product pass the costs its a win for him and burning hydrogen is his cheapest option outside of fossils.

If we all opened our minds eye and took the £€$ signs out of the equation just worked for the greater good then i think we really could make a change in 30 years for a reliable energy supply for millenia but word on the street is moneys to tight as a species the glory days are over, living austerity while capitalism in full bloom

I see your from aus hillhater just like my uncle and fam the tyranny must be getting to you by now the level of police control and action makes me sick its pathetically primary school playground like and if it sticks it will spread
 
I noticed the Twitter account of "fuelcellworks" is suspended. They are the biggest Hydrogen and Fuel-cell energy news site IMO https://fuelcellsworks.com/

Account suspended
Twitter suspends accounts which violate the Twitter Rules
https://twitter.com/fuelcellworks
2021-09-23aa.jpg

Considering the amount of down-votes I see on fuel-cell YouTube videos from Hydrogen Nikola Motor Company I think Elon Musk/battery fans will thumbs down or engage in "flagging attacks" on competitor technologies/sites like Nikola Motors or evil Fuelcellworks on Twitter. The Elon cult is that crazed/powerful.

I won't be surprised if fuelcellworks NEVER gets their Twitter account reinstated, it happens to a lot of people/groups for no real reason other than they aren't LIKED by others.
There is no science/maths/etc to who gets perm suspended on Twitter, it can all just fall down to some fat pink haired moderator lady who works at Twitter and how much she likes Elon Musk vs others etc.
white-men-ar-white-men-are-terrorists-29782469.jpg


Reuters put out this article saying German auto giants are in fact investing in Hydrogen fuel cell as well as battery based autos, could this have been the suspension trigger?
German auto giants place their bets on hydrogen cars
https://www.reuters.com/technology/german-auto-giants-place-their-bets-hydrogen-cars-2021-09-22/
don't rule out the underdog hydrogen.

That's the view of some major automakers, including BMW (BMWG.DE) and Audi (VOWG_p.DE), which are developing hydrogen fuel-cell passenger vehicle prototypes alongside their fleets of battery cars as part of preparations to abandon fossil fuels.
^Good article. :wink:

In other news Airbus moves to help make hydrogen refueling at airports become a more common thing.
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/airbus-air-liquide-and-vinci-airports-announce-partnership-to-promote-the-use-of-hydrogen-in-aviation/

These guys show off their fuel-cell drone, basically only need to watch the start and then skip to the end...
Using the "Intelligent Energy IE-Soar 2.4kW hydrogen fuel cell system to power the drone for a total of 1:42min of flight."
Not bad, I have lost count of how many times I have seen government funded emergency services fly a regular battery drone to help try and find a lost kid in 200km2 of Australian alpine bushland just to land 20mins later, kind of pointless if you ask me.
But getting about 2 hours and carrying 10lb payload for a FLIR camera or something seems much more useful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR_G1okLdWY
[youtube]BR_G1okLdWY[/youtube]
 
The Australian Energy Regulator (AER) is suing the operator of a massive Tesla battery over alleged failures to provide contingency services in 2019.

It has started legal action against Neoen-owned Hornsdale Power Reserve (HPR), which operates a 150MW/193.5MWh battery that is co-located with the 315MW Hornsdale wind farm in South Australia.

The regulator alleges that HPR failed to provide contingency frequency ancillary services (CFAS), which are needed to keep electricity flowing during a power disturbance, as promised.

It is suing for alleged breaches of the National Electricity Rules and seeking financial penalties, declarations and costs.
https://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/1728469/tesla-battery-operator-sued-australia-alleged-service-failures
 
Hillhater said:
The Australian Energy Regulator (AER) is suing the operator of a massive Tesla battery over alleged failures to provide contingency services in 2019.

It has started legal action against Neoen-owned Hornsdale Power Reserve (HPR), which operates a 150MW/193.5MWh battery that is co-located with the 315MW Hornsdale wind farm in South Australia.

The regulator alleges that HPR failed to provide contingency frequency ancillary services (CFAS), which are needed to keep electricity flowing during a power disturbance, as promised.

It is suing for alleged breaches of the National Electricity Rules and seeking financial penalties, declarations and costs.
https://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/1728469/tesla-battery-operator-sued-australia-alleged-service-failures

Yeah that is an interesting situation.
Other articles on the subject, basically all saying the same thing.
https://www.afr.com/companies/energy/tesla-big-battery-in-sa-welched-on-vital-services-aer-20210922-p58txr
https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/regulator-sues-tesla-big-battery-in-federal-court-over-power-grid-promises-20210923-p58u1b.html

Obviously to provide frequency control ancillary services (FCAS) you need a lot of raw MW power output over a sustained period, or else anyone would put their hand up and do it.

I have lost count how many articles/video reports from the ABC I've seen over the years reporting how this big battery is basically powering SA and saving it money and basically a miracle.

When I ever point out that the big battery doesn't create any power etc I usually get told I am retarded and that the battery was actually built to provide FCAS etc, so what it does and how it works changes every time I attempt to criticize it.
But look at where we are with it now, its come to the point where a project funded by the taxpayer has to be sued by the government to force them to run it properly.

Obviously because South Australia's electricity grid is of 'mad max' equivalent quality, the battery operator Neoen was basically given this big battery and then decided to run it for just energy arbitration and just squeeze money out of it because it saw Australia as a bunch of morons.
giphy.gif

https://media3.giphy.com/media/g3EGlx4Nirz7q/giphy.gif?cid=790b761154017902c0b3db8b7e34ba0308746c69d8f96051&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

What NEON has done is instead of providing FCAS as intended, it runs for power arbitrage profits, where they suck in power when its cheaper and then dump it when the price of electricity goes up, this clearly can't be performed at the same time as providing FCAS.
It obviously requires a lot of MWh always ready in the tank to provide FCAS, if the battery has been discharged to its limits dumping charged power when electricity prices are high then can only go into charge mode then it obviously can't provide FCAS.

The Neoen-owned Hornsdale Power Reserve was hailed as a miracle in that it was actually making a lot of money providing arbitrage, even though it doesn't create power it self, it just trades power.
This battery above anything just shows that South Australia's energy grid is incredibly sick, technically any regular base load power power station would destroy the HPR, because it could provide power when the market is high and provide FCAS, it all just points to the fact that SA doesn't have enough of it's own reliable power.

Just looking at this weeks SA power, we can see that South Australia still drew as much as 46% of its power (in purple) via the state of Victoria coal via a big extension cord.
2021-09-27.jpg
 
Lmao so the storage bank installed to maintain frequency has been hijacked and used to make money not grid stability.

Thing is this was happening in uk on a household level by clever people for years its even profitable to do it with lead acid over a 24hr period.

Old forklift battery banks filling a room and run on an economy 7 tariff charging by night discharge by day.

I believe i can make a profitable energy business with enough ground space and cheap enough land rates with a good grid connection id simply buy old forklift batterys and apply them to grid and recycle the lead as it wears out, would i be a millionare no could i employ a few people and make a go of it definalty.

Call me elon musky smell from all the hydrogen and sulfur dioxide, if the hydeogen could be captured too even more profit not so sure on sulfar dioxide demand
 
Im fairly sure the battery owner/operator , NEOEN (French company !), had this in mind from the planning stage.
They knew the huge range in wholesale power prices in Australia ( -ve $$s up to $15,000 peak !) , and cleaverly saw a way to convince the State and Grid Management, to go with the idea justified by the promise of FCAS support and a contract to provide emergency back up for state Government properties.
Now, every state is flooded with Battery projects ostensibly with the primary function of FCAS to support the intermittent RE generators.
But, time will reveal their ultimate purpose.....dolla’ harvesting from Aussie consumers !
 
Another take on utility scale storage using Phase change latent heat of Aluminium to store heat, which is then recovered to drive steam turbines and generator units ...as salvaged from existing Coal fueled generators.
But i doubt it will see the light of day due to the poor round trip efficiency
[youtube]edVjYofLYc4[/youtube]
 
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