Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

[jimw1960]

And we need to figure out floating offshore for the population dense coastal states.

Yep. And note that, offshore, the strongest winds are roughly from 3pm to 10pm - exactly the time needed to fill the "peak" on the duck curve.

That's a really important point. Here in Texas, they just completed a new transmission line between wind farms in west Texas and wind farms on the coast so cities in between (Houston, San Antonio, Austin, and many others) can benefit from the fact that coastal wind generation peaks at times when generation from west Texas is at a lull. It has allowed a significant jump in fraction of generation from wind in the past year which is expected to continue increasing.

 

[sendler2112]

Good lecture with the general road map of what to do's by Rob Dietz of Post Carbon Institute.
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https://www.postcarbon.org/creating-a-sustainable-future/
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[Hillhater]

^^^^Classic Socialist agenda !
Is that really what you want ?

 

[sendler2112]

Cornucopian access to non renewable resources and energy is coming to an end. We can either find a new way to cooperate and share what we are left with and be happy with enough, or look forward to world resource war III.

 

[Hillhater]

Energy sourcing may be a cause of concern and significant change, ..
... but worldwide economic restructuring, change of business practices, wealth redistribution, financial reform, population manipulation, centralised world governance, etc etc......that is Socialism on a scale never before contemplated in the civilised world, and would inevitably CAUSE WW3.

 

[billvon]

that is Socialism on a scale never before contemplated in the civilised world . . .

Except for national militaries, roads, the Apollo program, the Manhattan project, oil and coal subsidies, national parks, the Price-Anderson act . . .

"But . . . but . . . all those are different! Those are socialism I like."

 

[Hillhater]

Even if you believe those are “socialist” systems ( they are “capitalist” programs ?) ) ..they are not on the same scale that is envisaged for the GND type senario.

 

[Punx0r]

Do you understand the difference between a state- and private capital-funded venture?

 

[Hillhater]

Mining and processing the lithium, cobalt and manganese used for batteries consume a great deal of energy.

Which is why battery manufacturers are moving from 3:3:3 and 6:2:2 formulations to 8:1:1. Much less cobalt and manganese needed.

The data quoted was for Tesla M3 pack, which is reported to have the lowest Cobalt content...but also a higher Nickel content !

 

[Hillhater]

Do you understand the difference between a state- and private capital-funded venture?

Yes,..do you understand the difference between a “social” program ( within a “Capitalist” society), and a totally Socialist society ?

 

[sendler2112]

Energy sourcing may be a cause of concern and significant change, ..
... but worldwide economic restructuring, change of business practices, wealth redistribution, financial reform, population manipulation, centralised world governance, etc etc......that is Socialism on a scale never before contemplated in the civilised world, and would inevitably CAUSE WW3.

A reduction in total energy access will not be the only bottleneck we must move through. Although it is the proximate driver of everything we rely on. There are many other essential minerals and elements that are approaching peak such as Phosphorous which will push food production volumes and yields back closer to the pre Green Revolution totals and methods of the 50's where we once again rely on organic soil maintenance and more of the work will come from human and animal effort worldwide.
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We are facing down the biggest change that humans have ever had to navigate. The end of growth. And there is no planet B. Which requires a complete paradigm shift in the way we organize society. It will be immensely hard to wake everyone to agree to the changes that are required and refocus in order to get it done. But the alternative is to just let the market carry on mindlessly sloughing forward toward the quickest payback of our hijacked brain reward chemistry. Like yeast in a bottle of grape juice. Until the cork just pops and spews out whatever random bits are left.

 

[billvon]

Even if you believe those are “socialist” systems ( they are “capitalist” programs ?) )

No, they are not. The definition of socialism is government (or societal) control of the means of production and distribution. All those things qualify.

..they are not on the same scale that is envisaged for the GND type senario.

If you think public roads / airspace / parks are horrible and "just like living in the USSR" or something, then you may not like a near future that has more renewable energy. (Of course, if you also _use_ those public roads and airspace while complaining about the evils of socialism, you are something of a hypocrite.)

The world is going to change. Right now we have a say in _how_ it will change. The GND is one of the first attempts to envision what the new world will look like. It is tremendously flawed. But I am glad people are starting to think about it.

 

[Hillhater]

Even if you believe those are “socialist” systems ( they are “capitalist” programs ?) )

No, they are not. The definition of socialism is government (or societal) control of the means of production and distribution. All those things qualify.

If you believe those “things”. ( public roads, National parks, space programs, etc) define a socialist society,,..then boy, are you in for a shock !

If you think public roads / airspace / parks are horrible and "just like living in the USSR" or something, then you may not like a near future that has more renewable energy. (Of course, if you also _use_ those public roads and airspace while complaining about the evils of socialism, you are something of a hypocrite.)

How do you come to the conclusion that i think tose things are horrible ?...you thought train defies me !

The world is going to change. Right now we have a say in _how_ it will change. The GND is one of the first attempts to envision what the new world will look like. It is tremendously flawed. But I am glad people are starting to think about it.

The world is constantly changing, no man can stop that, and only a fool thinks he can significantly influence the direction of that change.
Anyone who thinks there is any sensible or rational ideas in the GND, is an idiot !

 

[billvon]

If you believe those “things”. ( public roads, National parks, space programs, etc) define a socialist society,,..then boy, are you in for a shock !

I don't. They are merely socialist programs; important parts of a society.

Here in the US one of our strengths is that we are not slaves to any one "-ism." We use socialism for our military, our roads, our utilities, our airspace, our parks etc. We use capitalism for the consumer economy. We use democracy rarely; more often we use a representative form of government, a republic. The mix of all those things avoids the worst of each.

How do you come to the conclusion that i think tose things are horrible ?...you thought train defies me !

If you now approve of and support the socialism demonstrated by those programs, great! You've learned something.

The world is constantly changing, no man can stop that, and only a fool thinks he can significantly influence the direction of that change.

So you think we neither damaged nor repaired the ozone layer? Interesting!

Anyone who thinks there is any sensible or rational ideas in the GND, is an idiot !

I am happy to be called an idiot by someone like yourself; it means I am doing something right.

 

[Hillhater]

You dont seem able to differentiate between a “social” program or project , and a socialist society .

 

[billvon]

You dont seem able to differentiate between a “social” program or project , and a socialist society .

I have no problem doing that. We don't need a "socialist society" to transition to renewable energy. (And more sustainable farming, and better designed towns and cities, and new forms of transportation etc etc.)

 

[Hillhater]

You dont seem able to differentiate between a “social” program or project , and a socialist society .

I have no problem doing that. We don't need a "socialist society" to transition to renewable energy. (And more sustainable farming, and better designed towns and cities, and new forms of transportation etc etc.)

Err?.. i think that is basicly what i said about 10 posts back.....

Energy sourcing may be a cause of concern and significant change, ..
... but worldwide economic restructuring, change of business practices, wealth redistribution, financial reform, population manipulation, centralised world governance, etc etc......that is Socialism on a scale never before contemplated in the civilised world, and would inevitably CAUSE WW3.

 

[billvon]

Err?.. i think that is basicly what i said about 10 posts back.....

Energy sourcing may be a cause of concern and significant change, ..
... but worldwide economic restructuring, change of business practices, wealth redistribution, financial reform, population manipulation, centralised world governance, etc etc......that is Socialism on a scale never before contemplated in the civilised world, and would inevitably CAUSE WW3.

OK. Then, to be clear, worldwide energy restructuring, new economic structures, changing business practices, financial reform, population control etc is NOT socialism on a scale never before contemplated. It will not result in a socialist society. It will not result in World War 3. It is a process that has been going on for centuries, and will continue.

 

[Hillhater]

So Why then are they termed ..“New policies and institutions”.. ?
And the UNs declared objective of “deconstructing” the existing Capitalist economic system, ..is not a transition to a socialist economy ?

 

[Cephalotus]

I updated my previous post because I was surprised to learn people don't know the basic science of co2 emissions behind metal mining and refinement, and how 1 tonne of lithium battery in an EV easily adds up to 15 tonnes of co2 or 10 years roughly of combustion vehicle driving.

Imho the best study on CO2 emissions for electric cars invluding CO2 emission for the metals involved in actual and future battries for EV:

https://www.agora-verkehrswende.de/fileadmin/Projekte/2018/Klimabilanz_von_Elektroautos/Agora-Verkehrswende_22_Klimabilanz-von-Elektroautos_WEB.pdf (in German, you may look at the pictures at page 39 and following, see page 47 for comaprison of NMC111 today to NMC622 in 2030)

 

[Hillhater]

why did they compare 1:1:1: NMC today , with 6:2:2 NMC in 2030 ?
They are not cell chemistry’s common for EV cells now, nor likely in 2030

 

[billvon]

So Why then are they termed ..“New policies and institutions”.. ?

Because they will be new.

The NRC was new as of 1974; it was a new institution with a new charter. It was roughly based on the old Atomic Energy Commission created in 1946. It had socialist aspects, since it sought to control and regulate nuclear reactors. The NRC (or the AEC that preceded it) did not cause "a transition to a socialist economy."

The FAA was new as of 1958; it was created after a catastrophic air crash in the Grand Canyon. It, too, was based on an older agency created in 1938. It was extremely socialist, since it established absolute government control of all airspace in the US. It also works pretty well. It did not cause "a transition to a socialist economy."

CAL-ISO controls all power flows in California. It was created in 1992 under the Federal Energy Policy Act, and established governmental control over the independent system operators in California to improve grid reliability, increase the use of renewable energy and regulate the electrical supply market. And since its formation, the grid has gotten more and more reliable, and has added a lot of renewable energy. It did not cause "a transition to a socialist economy."

And the UNs declared objective of “deconstructing” the existing Capitalist economic system, ..is not a transition to a socialist economy ?

See above. All those agencies "deconstructed" capitalist control of airspace, the grid and nuclear reactors - and it did not lead to "a transition to a socialist economy."

You've got to get over the whole "socialism" boogeyman thing. I know you're trying to scare people but it's not working.

 

[billvon]

why did they compare 1:1:1: NMC today , with 6:2:2 NMC in 2030 ?
They are not cell chemistry’s common for EV cells now, nor likely in 2030

Because most NMC batteries in use today are NMC 111 - and manufacturers are moving rapidly to 622 and 811.

 

[Hillhater]

Because most NMC batteries in use today are NMC 111 - and manufacturers are moving rapidly to 622 and 811.

That may/maynot be true,..but “most” EVs do not use NMC at all !

 

[Hillhater]

...... All those agencies "deconstructed" capitalist control of airspace, the grid and nuclear reactors - and it did not lead to "a transition to a socialist economy."

No, capitalism still drives those areas, those agencies simply provide regulatory control over those areas, within a capitalist organisations.
You are still confusing anything providing a social benefit , with a a socialist agenda.
You need to “get over” your rose tinted vision of a “decarbonised” future and look at the implications of the agenda’s of groups like GND, UN, Get Up, etc etc.