Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

[JackFlorey]

But, The reality is...
.... Ca is planning to shut all its remaining Nuclear plants....
...and you do not have 10% storage !

We actually do. See previous post.

 

[Hillhater]

But, The reality is...
.... Ca is planning to shut all its remaining Nuclear plants....
...and you do not have 10% storage !

We actually do. See previous post.

No you do not !
You re read it and try explain how you think Ca has 10% electrical energy storage !
Start by explaining what you believe that 4.2 GWh of storage is ?...
...then try to spin even that amount into a 10% supply ability !

 

[JackFlorey]

You re read it and try explain how you think Ca has 10% electrical energy storage ! Start by explaining what you believe that 4.2 GWh of storage is ?...

4.2 GW. GW. Not GWh. They are two very different things. 4.2GW is more than 10% of an average summertime peak.

 

[Hillhater]

jack,..jack,...jack...
... we are talking about STORAGE capacity......ENERGY..not power .
But ignoring your attempt to wriggle out of an answer,...what storage source is going to generate that 4.2 GW of power ???

 

[Ianhill]

Problem is everyone is a domestic service design consultant these days but JACK shit of their facts are based in reality, it's all lala land in California so who gives a toss if we get a baseline of facts from an area that's governing powers ain't microdosing lsd and bonging weed like a hippy.

There's a mixed bag of sources that's been shuffled around all over the globe to suit price and needs while developed areas try to look good on the pollution front they are consuming the most of everything a ship can deliever and taking jet holidays global to escape the artificial hell they are creating what a shit tip.

 

[JackFlorey]

... we are talking about STORAGE capacity......ENERGY..not power .

Ah, you are confusing yourself. Read the post you are replying to. GW is a unit of POWER. GWh is a unit of ENERGY. We are talking about POWER not ENERGY. They are very different.

 

[Hillhater]

Im not the confused one here jack. And i do understand the difference between power and energy.!
I think this is one of the early posts in this discussion where YOU raised the STORAGE issue.
...and we all know that in the real world, we store ENERGY.(GWh), .... not power (GW) !

.......... California will get energy from Nevada when it's windy and cloudy. Northern Cal will get power from Southern Cal when it's sunny one place and cloudy the other. Storage for peaks, DR for control of peaks, nuclear for base load. Not really rocket science.

 

[sendler2112]

D.C. Wahl "The theory of complex dynamic systems describes the periodic, rhythmic dance between order and chaos, between stability and transformation as a fundamental pattern of self-organization in complex (living) systems. As any system begins to mature, there is an accompanying increase in fixed and ordered patterns of interactions and resource flows. The system becomes over-connected, or better, the existing qualities and quantities of connections are such that they inhibit the formation of new pathways needed for the system’s overall adaptation to outside changes and its continued evolution. Eventually this leads to rigidity within the system, and it becomes brittle, less resilient, and more susceptible to disturbances from the outside.
At this point, the effects of detrimental run-away feedback loops inside the system can further challenge viability. The often resulting gradual or sudden breakdown of the old order and structures moves the system closer to ‘the edge of chaos’ — the edge of its current stability (dynamic equilibrium) domain.At the edge of chaos, complex dynamic systems are at their most creative (Kauffman, 1995). Ervin László argues in The Chaos Point that the world and humanity is currently at a crossroads between breakdown and breakthrough. If we take appropriate actions, the chaos point could be an opportunity to “leap to a new civilization"
https://medium.com/activate-the-future/the-adaptive-cycle-as-a-dynamic-map-for-resilience-thinking-a1a9f69dc257

 

[sendler2112]

Neil Peart. Word-Smith:
Rush "Vital Signs"
"Everybody got to elevate from the norm"
Unstable condition:
A symptom of life,
In mental,
And environmental change

Atmospheric disturbance –
The feverish flux,
Of human interface
And interchange

The impulse is pure –
Sometimes our circuits get shorted,
By external interference

Signals get crossed –
And the balance distorted
By internal incoherence

A tired mind become a shape-shifter
Everybody need a mood lifter
Everybody need reverse polarity

Everybody got mixed feelings
About the function and the form.
Everybody got to deviate
From the norm

An ounce of perception –
A pound of obscure
Process information
At half speed
Pause:
Rewind – replay –
Warm memory chip
Random-sample –
Hold the one you need

Leave out the fiction
The fact is;
This friction
Will only be worn by persistence

Leave out conditions
Courageous convictions
Will drag the dream into existence

A tired mind become a shape-shifter
Everybody need a soft filter
Everybody need reverse polarity

Everybody got mixed feelings
About the function and the form
Everybody got to elevate
From the norm…
https://youtu.be/Yh5RSv52g6U

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

But ignoring your attempt to wriggle out of an answer,...

yepp, he's very good at that.

 

[sendler2112]

.
Is equivalent to
.

 

[JackFlorey]

But ignoring your attempt to wriggle out of an answer,...

yepp, he's very good at that.

I am good with that. I'd rather work towards solutions than live as a hopeless luddite. But to each their own; some people prefer to be victims. I will leave you to it.

 

[Hillhater]

.... I'd rather work towards solutions than live as a hopeless luddite. But to each their own; some people prefer to be victims. I will leave you to it.

This whole thread started as a discussion about solutions to the current and future energy supply.
There are many options, but the real problem is to identify and progress the PRACTICAL solutions , and stop wasting time and resources on ideas that are not real long term solutions, just short term “money machines” for a few fortunate investors at the expense of all consumers .

 

[JackFlorey]

This whole thread started as a discussion about solutions to the current and future energy supply.

And now we know from your erudite contributions that there are no solutions; that anyone who attempts any solution other than coal is an imbecile who knows JACK shit.

I'll check back with you in a few years to see if renewables continue their exponential growth - or if they will all fail and humanity collectively decides to embrace coal as the future of energy.

 

[Ianhill]

No one is saying coal is the future, what people seem to forget is infrastructure being built, for example there's a tunnel on Richard Hammonds big under the alps and that aint being built with electric ? there's dynamite fossil fuels and liquid nitrogen all these things need energy to harvest in the first place.

Over time there has been a massive game of Minecraft to get us to where we are at and I see we can not keep combining the easy available blocks that leave the most hastle to clean up and even alter the Minecraft map as we know it but the reality of the energy being used converting blocks we face is absolutely massive to maintain without fossils.

Either we change how we live and only obtain surface level minerals etc or the big IF we need fusion to become a reality on a microgrid scale so in 20 years or so a lorry or two can pull onto site and supply all the electrical energy needed even deep deep under ground, and the next break through being battery advancement to manage that energy so even a big plant machines can swap over.

End of the day even if theres minor set backs like hourly breaks of 5 mins to charge back up a massive machine, thats still better than not getting to the ores at all when there shit all oil left to run such thirsty machines and it all has to be synthesized with massive regulations on it just like coal today, its possible to be carbon neutral on a global scale using ice burners with enough effort but its still dirty especially underground but 20 years there be hardly anyone needed most equipment will run itself so there won't be a need unless there's some pressure applied.

We have uncertain times just in UK theres brexit and now covid 19, the economy of the world is going to take a massive smash this year, it looked like the markets had grown to a point they where going to pop but this has made the arse hole truly fall out so the next year or so is all just going to be damage limitation for most let alone expansion and growth.

 

[JackFlorey]

No one is saying coal is the future, what people seem to forget is infrastructure being built, for example there's a tunnel on Richard Hammonds big under the alps and that aint being built with electric ? there's dynamite fossil fuels and liquid nitrogen all these things need energy to harvest in the first place.

Like I said, let's check back in ten years and see which has advanced farther.

 

[Ianhill]

No one is saying coal is the future, what people seem to forget is infrastructure being built, for example there's a tunnel on Richard Hammonds big under the alps and that aint being built with electric ? there's dynamite fossil fuels and liquid nitrogen all these things need energy to harvest in the first place.

Like I said, let's check back in ten years and see which has advanced farther.

Which one what ? Renewables
Of course they will advance and support a larger sector they are being exploited more but it won't stop the fact they will not be the back bone but a supplementary top up in areas that have wind, solar or geothermal to scavange.

To answer energy needs there has to be a break through in fusion to get a clean grid possible everywhere plus the grid will need interconnecting on a global scale as an end goal meaning country's with less wealth will need to be carried and then this grid will be a target of terrorism and dictatorships just like a pipe line.

For me humans are always the problem you can't get away from it and there's no fixing that one with out a complete redesign of humans implanting and creating a future that's unfathomable the leap will be like our smartphones being compared to two rubbing sticks for making fire not much of a change for the galaxy note 7 but you get the idea.

 

[sendler2112]

An Oak tree or a chicken are renewable. Solar farms and wind turbines are rebuildable. Using much more dense and transportable liquid energy and nonrenewable resources. Humans are energy blind. We think that because we can supply a house with it's energy from solar panels (in a sunny place) that we have become "net zero". We don't see all of the energy that is embodied in physical infrastructure. Mining, refining, manufacturing, transporting, and constructing all of this. Good luck making water out of sunlight Arizona. And are blind to it's scale. 18 TeraWatts continual average for the world. We have a debt based world economic system that only functions when there is ever more and more. We now have a lesson (still just at the beginning) of how complexity and free market globalization in search of lowest cost and just in time (including personal money) vicious efficiency has made our system brittle. Crippling production for the want of a nail. We have generally squandered the first two wishes of our nonrenewable primordial gifts. What should we do with the third wish?
.
Solar and wind can power A human civilization. Just not THIS civilization.

 

[JackFlorey]

Of course they will advance and support a larger sector they are being exploited more but it won't stop the fact they will not be the back bone but a supplementary top up in areas that have wind, solar or geothermal to scavange.

Again, we will see in 10 years if there are areas where renewables provide the 'backbone' (more than 50%) of their energy.

To answer energy needs there has to be a break through in fusion . . .

We could also hope for a plentiful source of antimatter appearing. That would solve all our energy problems. But it's also unlikely.

I am all for research into new fission and fusion reactors. In the meantime, we go with what works.

 

[JackFlorey]

An Oak tree or a chicken are renewable.

Sort of. Oak trees take zero care. Chickens take a lot of care and maintenance. We manage.

Good luck making water out of sunlight Arizona.

https://www.inc.com/magazine/201811/kevin-j-ryan/zero-mass-water-solar-power.html

 

[sendler2112]

Not quite agricultural in scale.

 

[Hillhater]

.......
I am all for research into new fission and fusion reactors. In the meantime, we go with what works.

The only technologies that are proven to work currently, are fosssil fuels and Nuclear (fission)
All others are either intermittent, unreliable, or unavailable on a world scale.
Those that do not like Fossil fuels, should be supporting Nuclear developments.

 

[JackFlorey]

The only technologies that are proven to work currently, are fosssil fuels and Nuclear (fission)

650 gigawatts of working solar says you are wrong. They win; you lose.

Again, let's come back in 10 year and see if solar is gone because it is "unreliable, intermittent and unavailable." I will bet you $1000, payable to your favorite charity, that we will see at least twice as much solar by 2030. Do we have a bet?

 

[Ianhill]

Nuclear fissions questionable designs to date has left a nasty metally taste on some people's mouths that lead to their nasty death, so shit like that needs to stop the waste all of it has been a shit storm with barrel dumped in huge numbers out at sea along with pipe lines from land in the 80's and 90's that operated that's just the UK legacy that an outsider gets to hear about.

One things for sure times running out on fusion if we don't get it in 20 years or so there will be to much power needed and fission will fill the gap and they are not being built to operate for 1 or 2 years unless your austria in the 1960s and spend billions to never switch it on in the early 70s from public voting .5% against it.

 

[Ianhill]

The only technologies that are proven to work currently, are fosssil fuels and Nuclear (fission)

650 gigawatts of working solar says you are wrong. They win; you lose.

Again, let's come back in 10 year and see if solar is gone because it is "unreliable, intermittent and unavailable." I will bet you $1000, payable to your favorite charity, that we will see at least twice as much solar by 2030. Do we have a bet?

Jack your not taking the fossil fuel demise and electric vehicle uptake fully into account and it's knock on effects for portable power generation etc not just transport but all things ice even if we expand our reserves with sysnthisized fuels by 2100 we will be left with nothing but synthetic 10% of global needs today at best the rest will fall to grid and that like expanding the grid 4 fold so your array best be 2 terrawatt with grid connection world wide to just chip in a small portion of what will be needed to maintain just today's standards let alone an expanded world in every way.

The floods in Wales UK have been bad and the grid took some damage in landslide what do you think restored supply to the local village ? Wind turbine , solar panel nope a big old diesel 3 phase generator burning 3 days none stop while repairs took place nothing can step in and take the load in such a situation like fossil it's made the world around you possible to date.

That's why I back micro fusion as a key player no need for one massive plant it's more efficient to power at source and if you can make it mobile there's power generation for all situations that can be demanding hospitals underground even in space.