Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

[Hillhater]

"American Thinker is a daily online magazine dealing with American politics from a politically conservative viewpoint…….

So,..attack the messenger, rather than accept the message !
AT simply linked to the content of the Seimens presentation..via Twitter…!!
Grow up !

 

[Hillhater]

For grid apps, be careful thinking that suitable pack costs are not tied to one specific chemistry. With the ramp of LFP and now sodium variants, the cost reductions should continue for some time IMO.

And the reality is,…..

Last year, Tesla listed a price of $9,999,290 for 10 Megapacks or $327.87 per kWh, whereas 10 Megapacks will now run you $16,048,230 or $412, 37 per kWh.

https://electrek.co/2022/03/21/tesla-hikes-megapack-prices-backlog-extends/

As i said previously, those numbers (Bloomberg) are media fodder,
I wish they would state the actual source of their information, which must be an estimated raw material costs, because in the real world anyone paying for a commercial utility battery is paying much more.
Please point me to a genuine utility storage pack at anything close to the $140/kWh.

 

[speedmd]

HEheheeheehee! As they say, the "idiot genius" is just printing money!

Some recent analysis has his costs actually slightly below the Fed incentive for domestic production. Ouch! They may figure this out shortly.

 

[Chalo]

"American Thinker is a daily online magazine dealing with American politics from a politically conservative viewpoint…….

So,..attack the messenger, rather than accept the message !

Hey, you're the one subscribed to a political movement predicated on propagating lies. It's reasonable for any critical thinker to dismiss what habitual, philosophically committed liars say.

 

[Hillhater]

1)..i am not subscribed !..( yet another dud assumption from you)
2)…..AT, didnt “say” it, they simply posted the actual Seimens produced presentation of their ‘22-‘23 results !
So are you saying Seimens, GE, Vestas, are all lying about the downturn in their wind business ?
Get your head out of the sand and read the freekin’ links before you comment !

 

[speedmd]

Raising prices 25% and having big failures have been sited issues going by the article. Also supply chain issues! Code for, "wait for tax breaks to take effect in the new gov programs". Poor quality and greed are a deadly combo. GE most likely will pick it up this year or go back to the insurance business they are focused on and give some room to their gas turbine segment. BIG Competition also at play.

 

[speedmd]

Also looks to be moving offshore.

 

[Voltron]

Hillhater-
"So,..attack the messenger, rather than accept the message ! Grow up!"


Also Hillhater-
"Climate scientists in the 60s-…..ZZZZZZZZZZZZ…….crickets…they were all high on dope !
Climate scientists in the 70’s….. the planet is going to FREEZE!
Climate scientists in the 80’s…..we need a new scare. ..to justify our funding…..thank you Mr Hansen !
“ 99% of climate scientists”…. But You know that is a lie !….
…..the official number from the only survey done, was 97%"

I guess the words attack, message and accept mean different things at different times.

 

[Hillhater]

I guess the words attack, message and accept mean different things at different times.

There is a difference…
Attacking the MESSAGE CONTENT, or the Originator of the message, is entirely different to attacking the MESSAGE CARRIER. !

 

[Hillhater]

Raising prices 25% and having big failures have been sited issues going by the article. Also supply chain issues! Code for, "wait for tax breaks to take effect in the new gov programs". Poor quality and greed are a deadly combo. GE most likely will pick it up this year or go back to the insurance business they are focused on and give some room to their gas turbine segment. BIG Competition also at play.

Yes , the message from those reports was ..”our costs are increasing significantly” which means that their competition (China) ..will be gaining a commercial advantage and more of the market.

 

[speedmd]

These cells, if specs are real, should work out to well under $100/kwh even with added packaging, busses and BMS-fuses. They are running free shipping to US while they last.

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804842121847.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.109.10311a45vfvECN&algo_pvid=7b8d715a-4113-4573-a1ff-e1e74dac9e40&aem_p4p_detail=20230209182711314309720514750003478397&algo_exp_id=7b8d715a-4113-4573-a1ff-e1e74dac9e40-54&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000031385552673%22%7D&pdp_npi=3%40dis%21USD%21169.14%21118.4%21%21%21%21%21%40211bf0a916759960309931013d0750%2112000031385552673%21sea%21US%21107679898&curPageLogUid=Y4hVIx6R1mb7&ad_pvid=20230209182711314309720514750003478397_11&ad_pvid=20230209182711314309720514750003478397_11

 

[Hillhater]

Hmm ?
Nice find,…..but this is even better..
(Why am i a little sceptical ? 8)
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/1005005122512046.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000014.1.503311a8j3gSz1&gps-id=pcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller&scm=1007.40050.281175.0&scm_id=1007.40050.281175.0&scm-url=1007.40050.281175.0&pvid=e0390e87-e9d4-4be9-ba07-d6c1708b0d4f&_t=gps-idcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller,scm-url:1007.40050.281175.0,pvid:e0390e87-e9d4-4be9-ba07-d6c1708b0d4f,tpp_buckets:668%232846%238116%232002&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000031746298249%22%2C%22sceneId%22%3A%2230050%22%7D&pdp_npi=3%40dis%21AUD%2194.61%2113.07%21%21%21%21%21%402103239b16760044426538878e2d1d%2112000031746298249%21rec%21AU%21

 

[Voltron]

I guess the words attack, message and accept mean different things at different times.

There is a difference…
Attacking the MESSAGE CONTENT, or the Originator of the message, is entirely different to attacking the MESSAGE CARRIER. !

I thought we were all sharing freely available information from the internet that supports our respective confirmation biases,
Where's the attack?
Isn't hitting those scientists with accusations of being druggies and bribe takers an attack on the content of their message?
Or is criticizing the media that reported it an attack?
You've done both, so just trying to discern constitutes an attack... I mean, I've read where you've dismissed info, the scientists discovering it, and the media publicizing it all in one post?

 

[speedmd]

Looks like we are both bottom fishing. :lol:
Both look to be resellers that ship the latest surplus pallet of goods they can scrounge up.

Without an agent that can scope it out, best to stick to a OEM or verified distributor if your dropping a few S$$.$$ on them. Lots of tubers reviewing cells and packs at the moment. Some claims on cells falling out of favor with the complete pack costs dropping significantly and many competing aggressively on warrantee and racking options.

 

[Hillhater]

There is a difference…
Attacking the MESSAGE CONTENT, or the Originator of the message, is entirely different to attacking the MESSAGE CARRIER. !

I thought we were all sharing freely available information from the internet that supports our respective confirmation biases,
Where's the attack?
Isn't hitting those scientists with accusations of being druggies and bribe takers an attack on the content of their message?
Or is criticizing the media that reported it an attack?
You've done both, so just trying to discern constitutes an attack... I mean, I've read where you've dismissed info, the scientists discovering it, and the media publicizing it all in one post?

Also Hillhater-
"Climate scientists in the 60s-…..ZZZZZZZZZZZZ…….crickets…they were all high on dope !
Climate scientists in the 70’s….. the planet is going to FREEZE!
Climate scientists in the 80’s…..we need a new scare. ..to justify our funding…..thank you Mr Hansen !
“ 99% of climate scientists”…. But You know that is a lie !….
…..the official number from the only survey done, was 97%"

The scientists ARE the originators of the message..
“99% of scientists…”,…IS the message.
..where have i attacked the media carrying the message ?

 

[Voltron]

"As i said previously, those numbers (Bloomberg) are media fodder,"

"Crazy weather ?… is only a figment of the media headline hunting. Actual data shows the weather is ,if anything, getting calmer than previous centuries. !"

"Politicians”, is only to follow whatever the current flavor of topical media BS "

"Whilst you just seem to blindly accept as precise the figures regurgitated by alarmist media."

You bash the media? Only when it doesn't support your world view.

 

[Chalo]

"As i said previously, those numbers (Bloomberg) are media fodder,"

"Crazy weather ?… is only a figment of the media headline hunting. Actual data shows the weather is ,if anything, getting calmer than previous centuries. !"

"Politicians”, is only to follow whatever the current flavor of topical media BS "

"Whilst you just seem to blindly accept as precise the figures regurgitated by alarmist media."

You bash the media? Only when it doesn't support your world view.

Like most 21st century right wingers, he seems to think he's entitled to his own facts and not just his own opinions.

 

[Hillhater]

"As i said previously, those numbers (Bloomberg) are media fodder,"

That is critism of the numbers….the Bloomberg reference was just to be clear which numbers were being refered to.
I know Bloomberg did not create the data, they just published it from a media release.

"Crazy weather ?… is only a figment of the media headline hunting. Actual data shows the weather is ,if anything, getting calmer than previous centuries. !"

"Politicians”, is only to follow whatever the current flavor of topical media BS "

"Whilst you just seem to blindly accept as precise the figures regurgitated by alarmist media."

You bash the media? Only when it doesn't support your world view.

Think of it a media bashing if you like, But the real focus of the points is the dubious weather headlines, ..
..the Politicians for. regurgitating such alarmist info..
..and you blind acceptance of similar dud data as presented vis the media !
But i can accept, and wear with pride, the lable of “media basher” when it comes to such biased f wits as CNN, ABC, BBC etc, etc !

Now , where are you guys with that last challenge that you keep trying to detract from ?
..show me a genuine commercial source of Lithium storage for anything near the mythical $100/kWh.
…or is it just a “media fodder” number ?

 

[Voltron]

Hillhater one day, when his right wing blog source is questioned-
"So,..attack the messenger, rather than accept the message ! Grow up!", and
"..where have i attacked the media carrying the message ?"


Hillhater the next day- "i can accept, and wear with pride, the lable of “media basher” when it comes to such biased f wits as CNN, ABC, BBC etc, etc !"


So grown up!
To quote a wise Frenchman, "I laugh in your general direction"

 

[Hillhater]

To quote a wise Frenchman, "I laugh in your general direction"

You know…if you use quotes, it pays to get them right..!
..But i guess you know your quotes as well as you know your climate science ?

“I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.”

 

[Voltron]

You're quite right, I should have written " to paraphrase a wise Frenchman."

But that comment didn't have anything to do with climate science. It had to do with hypocrisy, and those who excuse in themselves what they blame and insult others for.

I have a congenital dislike of that sort of thing.

 

[Hillhater]

Back to battery costs..
Lithium prices have fallen 30% in 2023 !!!
..but unfortunately they increased 1200% from 2021 prices !!
i wonder how that affects battery costs ?
..or why it happened

Maybe this is an indication..

so, unless we can find a LOT more Lithium reserves, or a suitable substitute, we are heading for a serious shortfall very soon !…
( not only Lithium )
…. AND gear up our mining production,..it will take a long time (9900+ years !) to support the UN’s plan for eliminating fossil fuels.

 

[speedmd]

Nice to get my daily dose of FUD in one place. As you can see in the chart we already were able to deal with the natural graphite shortage issues with innovation. Much like the early catalytic converters using massive amounts of rare metal, the Li batteries are still over rich in concentrations of rare materials that can be mostly subbed out. Lots of other choices also. Certainly will require some streamlining of permitting with new mines, but if government gets on board, should not be a issue long term.

 

[Hillhater]

I admire your optomism , and i agree that mining production could be significantly increased in response to higher demand.
But, when supply is driven by demand , it always leads to further price increase.
Also, whilst production rates can be increased with the input of extra effort and finance, …not so easy to increase the global reserves of some of these key materials !

 

[nicobie]

Any time I run across someone preaching that solar doesn't work or is too pricey or takes up too much land, etc, etc, I instantly label them as uninformed (or worse).

This is coming from a guy who has had rooftop solar for about 10 years that was paid off in 5 years. It now powers my car and heats my water. As natural gas prices have exploded in California, I heat my house with small electric heaters too. Solar just works.

IMHO I think we should go the euro way and do with energy pricing like they did with petrol. keep jacking the prices until even the "uninformed" figure that it's cheaper to go solar. We don't need solar farms when rooftop arrays will do the job. Use the extra tax money to subside battery storage for the poorest. And make sure the people who use a lot of energy pay a lot more in energy taxes.