Yamaha 150cc conversion

[inirico]

Hello guys,

I have a 2010 Yamaha Vixion with 150cc 11,10KW 13,10Nm Torque, which I am planning to convert an ICE motorcycle to an electric motorcycle. my goal is to have (much) better performance than an ICE: low ET for 0-100 m with little bit more than 30 km range per charge.

I have a Kelly Motor Controller KLS72701 - 8080I 24-72V 700A
so I plan to use it with these components (plan to order from evdrives):
- MR0913
- Domino twist throttle
- 72V Albright Contactor
- Sevcon DC/DC Isolated Converter / Voltage Reducer 72 to 12V

For battery I am planning to have
alt #1:
300 cell NCR18650PF 2900 mAh 5C 20S 15P 43.5AH
with 24S 80A BMS from Dark Horse

alt #2:
300 cell NCR18650BD 3Ah 10C 20S 15P 45AH
with 24S 80A BMS from Dark Horse

Hope there is some inputs from you guys on how to maximize the convertion.
Thank you.

Here what I started with:


Now:

 

[leffex]

Nice project and best of luck!

I recommend you to get a larger battery or you have to lower your power level. Now your battery can be used at about 84v x 100a for a power of 8400 watts. For continuous use I would have to test first and to test a battery after its been build already is kind of a expensive endeavor if the test fails.

Here's a video of a brick 4s15p of PF cells, the test would be the same if they use a 20s15p at the same amperage. Here they drag 150a from it and the temperature becomes,.. not so pleasant. Video from vectorebike.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=65BSqecwptk

 

[inirico]

Nice project and best of luck!

I recommend you to get a larger battery or you have to lower your power level. Now your battery can be used at about 84v x 100a for a power of 8400 watts. For continuous use I would have to test first and to test a battery after its been build already is kind of a expensive endeavor if the test fails.

Here's a video of a brick 4s15p of PF cells, the test would be the same if they use a 20s15p at the same amperage. Here they drag 150a from it and the temperature becomes,.. not so pleasant. Video from vectorebike.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=65BSqecwptk

Thank you Leffex for your kind response.

What size of batt would you recommend? in my calculation (orginally), it should go huge (in dimension) 20S 55P ? with 72V 166AH NCR18650BD 3AH

BTW, would you recommend to use the PF or BD version?

I could not increase the voltage, since the Kelly controller max voltage is 72V.

 

[fechter]

If you really want to use the full power of the controller, you may need to use Lipo batteries.
The motor/controller should be in the ballpark for what you want. Gearing the motor properly might be a challenge. It will need much more reduction than the stock chain setup. Either a huge rear sprocket or double reduction will likely be needed.

 

[inirico]

If you really want to use the full power of the controller, you may need to use Lipo batteries.
The motor/controller should be in the ballpark for what you want. Gearing the motor properly might be a challenge. It will need much more reduction than the stock chain setup. Either a huge rear sprocket or double reduction will likely be needed.

Thank you Fechter.

Any recommendation on how to calculate the gearing?
One article I read, I should use 88:1 reduction?

 

[fechter]

Based on the tire size you can calculate the wheel RPM for the target speed. From the datasheet or specs from the motor, you can find the RPM at the design voltage. You want the wheel speed to be somewhat higher than your target since the motor will slow down with increasing load. Then divide the two and you will be in the ballpark.

88:1 doesn't sound remotely close.

 

[inirico]

Based on the tire size you can calculate the wheel RPM for the target speed. From the datasheet or specs from the motor, you can find the RPM at the design voltage. You want the wheel speed to be somewhat higher than your target since the motor will slow down with increasing load. Then divide the two and you will be in the ballpark.

88:1 doesn't sound remotely close.

Will learn more.
Thx

 

[leffex]

For battery I am planning to have
alt #1:
300 cell NCR18650PF 2900 mAh 5C 20S 15P 43.5AH
with 24S 80A BMS from Dark Horse

alt #2:
300 cell NCR18650BD 3Ah 10C 20S 15P 45AH
with 24S 80A BMS from Dark Horse

Hope there is some inputs from you guys on how to maximize the convertion.

I just realized. If you use a bms, your limit of power is the bms set to 80a from Dark Horse. So your power is 84v times 80 a = 6720w. And your pack can handle about 100a so either cell bd or pf cells are capable to do the job.

If you want a smaller and more lightweight battery try the newer Samsung INR21700-50E 5000mah cell rated at 10a also. So you need 10p of this at least giving you about 45ah pack at a weight of 13,8kg vs 14,8kg bd and 14,1kg pf without wires and connections.

Learn more about building your own battery or outsource this to a professional person that you trust and save you time and money.

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

Controller and motor seem ok for your targets.
Your battery isn't. Not enough capacity (which will lead to a high C rating your cells won't appreciate). So either find cells capable of much higher discharge rates, or at least add capacity until you're under 5C discharges.
Your controller will need around 300Amps from the battery, that's quite a lot. And it can be more than that because the Kellys don't manage really well battery currents, they mostly don't care. So you can end up having spikes much higher than 300A battery side.

So you should at least size your battery for 300 amps discharge. Right now you are around 6-7C, which is quite a lot. Your cells are rated for 3.15C continuous discharge, so you're well over that. Try to stay well under 5C if you plan on using 18650 cell styles. Most of them don't last long if you run them higher than that.

Also, 80A BMS is clearly not enough. Check for the 300A ANT BMS blueetooth. You need at least that, otherwise the BMS will cut power all the time.

 

[inirico]

I just realized. If you use a bms, your limit of power is the bms set to 80a from Dark Horse. So your power is 84v times 80 a = 6720w. And your pack can handle about 100a so either cell bd or pf cells are capable to do the job.

If you want a smaller and more lightweight battery try the newer Samsung INR21700-50E 5000mah cell rated at 10a also. So you need 10p of this at least giving you about 45ah pack at a weight of 13,8kg vs 14,8kg bd and 14,1kg pf without wires and connections.

Learn more about building your own battery or outsource this to a professional person that you trust and save you time and money.
[/quote]

Thank you Lefflex.
Yes, I will ask a friend to build the battery pack.
Before I ask him, I should know what is the best configuration for the bike.
I will check if he is selling the INR21700-50E.

BTW.. should I loose the BMS on discharge side? and put the BMS just for charging?
If it is save to do that, what batt pack should I use to maximize the ME0913 and Kelly8080i?

 

[inirico]

Controller and motor seem ok for your targets.
Your battery isn't. Not enough capacity (which will lead to a high C rating your cells won't appreciate). So either find cells capable of much higher discharge rates, or at least add capacity until you're under 5C discharges.
Your controller will need around 300Amps from the battery, that's quite a lot. And it can be more than that because the Kellys don't manage really well battery currents, they mostly don't care. So you can end up having spikes much higher than 300A battery side.

So you should at least size your battery for 300 amps discharge. Right now you are around 6-7C, which is quite a lot. Your cells are rated for 3.15C continuous discharge, so you're well over that. Try to stay well under 5C if you plan on using 18650 cell styles. Most of them don't last long if you run them higher than that.

Also, 80A BMS is clearly not enough. Check for the 300A ANT BMS blueetooth. You need at least that, otherwise the BMS will cut power all the time.

Thank you Dui, ni shuo de dui,
What batt's configuration will you recommend to maximize the ME 0913 and kelly 8080i?

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

Thank you Dui, ni shuo de dui,
What batt's configuration will you recommend to maximize the ME 0913 and kelly 8080i?

Well I can't really answer that question for you, it depends of what space you have, what weight target, what country you live in (sometimes it can be hard to find good cells in some countries)...

I'd say that the battery I'm using should be able to provide that kind of currents, but no idea if it fits your bike or if it's available where you live.

What I know is that you need to find a battery capable of supplying around 300 amps if you don't want your battery to be the bottleneck, so you have to dig into cells specifications and research whatever cell might be the best one for you. You want to search for cells with a high discharge current, both peak and continuous.
If you're not clear about how all this works, you can have a look at that post I wrote yesterday, it explains the basics of battery sizing:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=99443#p1462540

 

[inirico]

Thank you Dui, ni shuo de dui,
What batt's configuration will you recommend to maximize the ME 0913 and kelly 8080i?

Well I can't really answer that question for you, it depends of what space you have, what weight target, what country you live in (sometimes it can be hard to find good cells in some countries)...

I'd say that the battery I'm using should be able to provide that kind of currents, but no idea if it fits your bike or if it's available where you live.

What I know is that you need to find a battery capable of supplying around 300 amps if you don't want your battery to be the bottleneck, so you have to dig into cells specifications and research whatever cell might be the best one for you. You want to search for cells with a high discharge current, both peak and continuous.
If you're not clear about how all this works, you can have a look at that post I wrote yesterday, it explains the basics of battery sizing:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=99443#p1462540

Thanks Dui, ni shuo de dui.
Will do.

 

[neptronix]

Looks like a pretty cool project so far; best wishes!

 

[inirico]

Looks like a pretty cool project so far; best wishes!

Thank you Neptronix,
so many things to be considered and learned.
wish me luck..

 

[inirico]

After reading Dui's posts and many other posts in ES (not all.. )
I got mixed feeling on how to calculate the best batt configuration.. the pack got soo heavy and bulky

Please help!

To max use of the Kelly's KLS72701-8080i controller
on 72V 280A continues (700A peak)
with ME0913 motor of 12KW continues (30KW peak)

to supply 280A in 72V (20KWh)
if I am using Samsung INR21700-50E at 4,900mAh 10C (thx to Lefflex)
https://batteryservice.bg/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/INR21700-50E.pdf
the pack would be 20S 62P
72V 279Ah
1.240 cells x 69gr = 86Kg (85.560gr)

to supply 280A in 72V (20KWh)
if I am using 3,6V Prismatic 40aH 3C
https://lvdoobattery.com/collections/battery-cell/products/powerful-ternary-3-6v-40ah-prismatic-battery-cell
the battery pack would be 20S 7P
72V 280Ah
140 cells x 800gr = 112Kg

I am planning to use 300A ANT BMS blueetooth (thx to Dui)

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

to supply 280A in 72V (20KWh)
if I am using Samsung INR21700-50E at 4,900mAh 10C (thx to Lefflex)
https://batteryservice.bg/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/INR21700-50E.pdf
the pack would be 20S 62P
72V 279Ah
1.240 cells x 69gr = 86Kg (85.560gr)

I don't really understand how you calculated those values, but if I read the spec sheet, Max peak discharge of your cells is 14.7 amps.
Your controller might draw around 300 amps peak from the battery (that's an assumption from my side, Kelly controllers don't manage battery currents very well), so that's 300/14.7=20.4 cells in parallel. Add a safety margin just to be sure and you should be good with 25 cells in parallel, so 20S 25P, around 35 kilo. Of course if you can put more than 25 cells in parallel it can only get better

Maybe you got confused by the controller power ratings, Kelly always mention the phase output current of their controllers, but rarely the battery input current. Or maybe you confused A with Ah.

 

[inirico]

to supply 280A in 72V (20KWh)
if I am using Samsung INR21700-50E at 4,900mAh 10C (thx to Lefflex)
https://batteryservice.bg/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/INR21700-50E.pdf
the pack would be 20S 62P
72V 279Ah
1.240 cells x 69gr = 86Kg (85.560gr)

I don't really understand how you calculated those values, but if I read the spec sheet, Max peak discharge of your cells is 14.7 amps.
Your controller might draw around 300 amps peak from the battery (that's an assumption from my side, Kelly controllers don't manage battery currents very well), so that's 300/14.7=20.4 cells in parallel. Add a safety margin just to be sure and you should be good with 25 cells in parallel, so 20S 25P, around 35 kilo. Of course if you can put more than 25 cells in parallel it can only get better

Maybe you got confused by the controller power ratings, Kelly always mention the phase output current of their controllers, but rarely the battery input current. Or maybe you confused A with Ah.

Thank you Dui,

May I know how can you assumed it is 300A peak?
In the Kelly's datasheet page 6, it mentioned two figures: 280A continues and 700A peak. is these phase output current?
https://e-vehicle.eu/KLS8080I%20IPS%20Opto-isolated%20Sinusoidal%20BLDC%20V1.10.pdf

would it be safer to make the batt pack: 700/14.7=47.6 cells in pararel? 20S 47P?
or would it be redundant?

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

Thank you Dui,

May I know how can you assumed it is 300A peak?

Well that's kind of an "educated guess", I cannot know for sure because Kelly controllers almost never mentions those figures.
But that's about what I've seen on most controllers I tried, usually the phase currents max ratings are about the double of what the battery draws are.

In the Kelly's datasheet page 6, it mentioned two figures: 280A continues and 700A peak. is these phase output current?

Yes, that's phase output current.

would it be safer to make the batt pack: 700/14.7=47.6 cells in pararel? 20S 47P?
or would it be redundant?

Well more cells in parallel is always better, but then your battery will be huge, expensive and hard to build. So you have to find whatever compromize suits you best.

 

[inirico]

Thx Dui