new guy looking for a great battery manufacturer to buy bulk

Hey everyone! I'm the ebikeguy. I'm new on here so I would like to say hey and thanks for the board! I'm a bit new to the ebike business and have a few of my own at this time. 26" Giant with goldenmotor MP3. Great bike so far! 48v15ah C3 battery. (from china of course)

I'm currently in S.W. Florida and am a goldenmotor dealer.

I would like some advice from some of you battery techs on manufactures to avoid in the battery world and which ones are great pre and post sale!

I'm lookin to import several batteries at a time for resale at a FAIR price to all us ebike enthusiasts! I'm new to LifePO4 and LIPO and Li-Ion ebike battery packs but am learning a lot.

I currently buy from my motor supplier but need a better price on the battery packs, cells, chargers, etc. Most are in China so its tough to deal with them sometimes as some of you might know.

I just had to cancel a very larger 40 battery pack order after they were shipped because the battery manufacturer made the wrong batteries. The problem was they were not HIGH OUTPUT as requested so they had to stop the shipping in HongKong and retrieve all the batteries and chargers.

I've found a few other places possibly to do business with but need more battery knowledge before buying so many at a time.

Any help on where and what type of batteries or cells any and all of you are using or need to get please chime in and let me know.

I will post my retail info once I've read all the rules here about posting for dealers so you can get to know me better.

This is NOT a spam post by any means. I'm just a new dealer looking for some help from some knowlegable like minded people. From looking around on ebay and other sites batteries are hard to come by and are usually under powered for most of us not riding a low watt bike.

So any help could be win win for myself and all the members here.

Thanks for your time.

I've been at this since 2004, still looking for the answer to your question.. let me know if you find it.

Something small, light, powerfull, safe, with quality BMS, and a charger that can be carried around ( no fans or openings for dust and crap to get inside ) .. at least 10ah , that lasts years, not months, and bellow 400$...... pre-built .. and available in any quantity..

nope.. it don't exist.

You either pay the piper for a quality pack ( 700$+ ) or you make due with lead acid *( heavy )

I've tried garnering interest in the following before, without much, and will again, because its a really good idea. Its a variation of the cooperative purchasing attempts (or "group buy") here at ES with improvements.

• it takes volume to make a great price, so marshal the ES community to support a large joint purchase
• the WHAT, chemistry, format, manufacturer, etc. gets debated, summarized, voted and posted
• a purchasing, receipt and shipping agent is contracted - yea, actual contract - with a fee granted by the participants
• the agent has the paypal email and account to which the participants pay in
• the actual name, address, driver's license, phone number and photo are disclosed as part of the contract
• contract stipulates confidentiality and non-disclosure by the participants
• agent must be lithium-ion shipping certified, so as to legitimately place orders on common carriers (UPS ground)
• payment is in two pieces: 1> the bulk purchase by wholesaler cost, on a per cell basis, and 2> the final per cell cost adjusted for capacity plus shipping cost plus agent fee
• the first payment acts like a non-refundable deposit - its a buy-in cost
• upon receipt, all cells are numbered, charge/discharge/charge tested and placed into matched lots
• results are posted to the participants; higher capacity lots are at a premium; lower capacity lots are discounted; the average is the mid-point; the premium and discount rates are agreed upon by the participant group
• shipping containers for lithium-ion, external labelling, etc. are procured
• shipping costs are figured - all shipments by the same carrier (UPS ground); labels are generated
• final fee is negotiated, accounting for the actual time commitment by the agent
• final payments are made, again via paypal
• everything ships
• evaluations made, summarized and results of the cooperative purchase posted, with recommendations for improvement for the next go
• the process is repeated by the next group needing new batteries

It would of course require the ES community to get over prior failures with cooperative purchasing and acknowledge that we all share the same needs and problems fulfilling those needs.

See this search for history on group buy.

^ dreamer

But worth trying for...

Ypedal said:

I've been at this since 2004, still looking for the answer to your question.. let me know if you find it.

Something small, light, powerfull, safe, with quality BMS, and a charger that can be carried around ( no fans or openings for dust and crap to get inside ) .. at least 10ah , that lasts years, not months, and bellow 400$...... pre-built .. and available in any quantity..

nope.. it don't exist.

You either pay the piper for a quality pack ( 700$+ ) or you make due with lead acid *( heavy )

Click to expand...

Thanks for answering! I'm finding a lot out here about this. I can get batteries it seems but now I have a lot more to think about! what this 700$+ battery you speak of?

arkmundi said:

I've tried garnering interest in the following before, without much, and will again, because its a really good idea. Its a variation of the cooperative purchasing attempts (or "group buy") here at ES with improvements.

• it takes volume to make a great price, so marshal the ES community to support a large joint purchase
• the WHAT, chemistry, format, manufacturer, etc. gets debated, summarized, voted and posted
• a purchasing, receipt and shipping agent is contracted - yea, actual contract - with a fee granted by the participants
• the agent has the paypal email and account to which the participants pay in
• the actual name, address, driver's license, phone number and photo are disclosed as part of the contract
• contract stipulates confidentiality and non-disclosure by the participants
• agent must be lithium-ion shipping certified, so as to legitimately place orders on common carriers (UPS ground)
• payment is in two pieces: 1> the bulk purchase by wholesaler cost, on a per cell basis, and 2> the final per cell cost adjusted for capacity plus shipping cost plus agent fee
• the first payment acts like a non-refundable deposit - its a buy-in cost
• upon receipt, all cells are numbered, charge/discharge/charge tested and placed into matched lots
• results are posted to the participants; higher capacity lots are at a premium; lower capacity lots are discounted; the average is the mid-point; the premium and discount rates are agreed upon by the participant group
• shipping containers for lithium-ion, external labelling, etc. are procured
• shipping costs are figured - all shipments by the same carrier (UPS ground); labels are generated
• final fee is negotiated, accounting for the actual time commitment by the agent
• final payments are made, again via paypal
• everything ships
• evaluations made, summarized and results of the cooperative purchase posted, with recommendations for improvement for the next go
• the process is repeated by the next group needing new batteries

It would of course require the ES community to get over prior failures with cooperative purchasing and acknowledge that we all share the same needs and problems fulfilling those needs.

See this search for history on group buy.

Click to expand...

WOW! Thanks for this.I will deffinately check this out. Thought it would be way more simple than this!

nicobie said:

^ dreamer

But worth trying for...

Click to expand...

Holy crap is it really that bad? I mean I've ordered batteries before and never seemed this hard. I'm just looking for a better price and company than the ones I've used. You guys seem to have a lot of knowledge here and I welcome all input and thank you all again!

These guy's are talking about buying reclaim A123 20ah pouches or there modules. Or new batteries that are unknown yet. Remember E.S. is where people go for problems with there E V's. But there can be help here and endless opions.

Two of the big guys in hubmotor kits use two different suppliers. Grin is selling Ezee batteries, while Ebikekit is now selling batteries from Allcell. Various Limn types seem to be the current thing, but for many a 48v 15 ah lifepo4 pouch cell pack still works great. But the lack of a metal or plastic housing is a turn off.

How big a discharge rate are you looking for?

No telling about the vendors. But this looks like a good thing to look for. At 20 ah, you'd have a decent ability to run a 30 amps controller on them, at just 1.5c discharge rates.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=52331&p=778788#p778788

If you really want some idea how hard it is to find a good vendor that stays good, take a look over at the Grin Tech / ebikes.ca site for the news archive of their battery testing/experiences article/video. It's also here on ES, somewhere, but should be easier to find on their site.

There's also dozens, probably hundreds, of threads here about various battery sellers and manufacturers, if you do some searching/poking around.

The small frog stlye batteries will just cause you problems with magic pie 3 you have. Great on paper but will just short out in little time. It's about a strong cell to start with. Or lower the amps the controller demands. So start out with a good cells.

That's for sure. Wasn't he wanting higher discharge rate cheap? Don't we all brother.

dogman said:

Two of the big guys in hubmotor kits use two different suppliers. Grin is selling Ezee batteries, while Ebikekit is now selling batteries from Allcell. Various Limn types seem to be the current thing, but for many a 48v 15 ah lifepo4 pouch cell pack still works great. But the lack of a metal or plastic housing is a turn off.

How big a discharge rate are you looking for?

Click to expand...

Dogman thanks for chiming in. mainly 30-60a in 48v10-12ah so fit it case. 36v too. same thing as well as bottle and silverfish type. I want to be able to supply as many ebike enthusiasts as possible. I like the metal prismatic cells they seem to be easily fit in case and safe?

I do understand now theres so many batt types, shapes, sizes, ratings etc.. overload. lol

amberwolf said:

If you really want some idea how hard it is to find a good vendor that stays good, take a look over at the Grin Tech / ebikes.ca site for the news archive of their battery testing/experiences article/video. It's also here on ES, somewhere, but should be easier to find on their site.

There's also dozens, probably hundreds, of threads here about various battery sellers and manufacturers, if you do some searching/poking around.

Click to expand...

thanks I've been trying to learn as fast as I can. I will do that!

999zip999 said:

The small frog stlye batteries will just cause you problems with magic pie 3 you have. Great on paper but will just short out in little time. It's about a strong cell to start with. Or lower the amps the controller demands. So start out with a good cells.

Click to expand...

just need the frog for some of the smart pie motors and similar that take less watts. under 400. this is a very small portion of batts i need. i will only keep a few on hand.

dogman said:

That's for sure. Wasn't he wanting higher discharge rate cheap? Don't we all brother.

Click to expand...

yes i do. lol. isnt that the truth. I'm finding some good prices and some good companies i think and am ordring some sample to test.

ok everyone! i need YOUR input. I've heard everything from suppliers and been round and round with several. so please help me to understand what I need. my max watt motor i will sell currently is the goldenmotor Magic Pie 3 at 1500watts. (sometimes twin motor front and rear) Now maybe it can be programmed to handle more but all new to me right now.

I know some of you use extreme high watt/amp/voltage motors and need more than this. and eventualy I will too.

I need info on both lifepo4 and lithium as this is what people seem to like. 1 supplier says lithium sucks another says they rock then again same thing about lifepo4? My head is hurting from all this new knowledge!!!!

16s3p, 12s2p, 1C 2C 3C. 10ah 20ah 100ah 200ah lithium polymer, lfp li-ion Lifepo4,LiMn2O4 and Li(NiCoMn)O2 argghhhh!!!!too much! overload! lol! I know its easier than this. and I've always got good battery pack rear rack from goldenmotor with never a problem but they charge too much.

can someone tell me what i need to order to run MP3 and below at 48v (1500watt max). I believe i need continous 30a and 50-60peak discharge etc. so they say 48v10ah in 3C is just that?

PLEASE HELP THE EBIKEGUY!?!

BTW you all have been a huge help thus far and thank you so much.

If you need a battery and bms let me know and I can add it to this new order I'm about to place but want to make sure I order the right things first!

Thanks Wes.

The Answer to the million dollar question!

I don't know L>) first person who can make a lipo with BMS and a decent capacity and c rate wins.
Oh also replaceable cells for when one goes bad would be nice also! And a built in Balancing charger. Am I asking for too much LOL one more thing make it cheap!

ebikeguy said:

16s3p, 12s2p, 1C 2C 3C. 10ah 20ah 100ah 200ah lithium polymer, lfp li-ion Lifepo4,LiMn2O4 and Li(NiCoMn)O2 argghhhh!!!!too much! overload! lol! I know its easier than this. and I've always got good battery pack rear rack from goldenmotor with never a problem but they charge too much.

Click to expand...

You can't avoid the research and making a commitment based on that, like everyone buying into a battery to power their ebike, especially if you'll be doing resale. ES is a good place to start your research, but not to end it. And yea, there is a plethora of choice available now, making it that much harder. You're only asking for trouble substituting ES opinion, no matter how knowledgable, for your own research.

if you have not done it yet..

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=26621

get thru it, the whole thing... 8)

Ypedal said:

if you have not done it yet..
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=26621
get thru it, the whole thing... 8)

Click to expand...

I did read through it a year and a half ago, when I was in the same place trying to figure this stuff out, to make some wise choices. Ypedal was an important source of good experience based decisions.

Ypedal said:

Alot of people, myself included, use lithium packs without a BMS, and by never, i repeat.. ' NEVER ' draining the pack to full capacity and by charging below maximum high voltage this can work... but it's not for everyone..

Click to expand...

So, when deciding to build an A123 AMP20 battery pack, without a BMS, in part it was a decision to have double the capacity that I needed. I don't believe I have discharged past 50%, so have safely stayed above the low voltage limit. Until recently, however, having added balance leads and Celllogs, I was not aware I had been exceeding high voltage limits.

The reason is that I'd voltage test individual cells with a multimeter, usually hours after a charge and would always find them in the safe range. I had not monitored cell voltage during the charge itself, so had not noticed that some cells can spike up into the dangerously high voltage range. I've encapsulated this precious bit of wisdom here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=42871&start=100#p780963

So like many you are asking for a great battery at a cheap price so there is room for profit. In a very small package to fit a bike. You will have to buy a few different types and test as these are 1000 cycle batteries plus it's hard to test for your customers for a long run. A 3c battery and not a 3c battery that's 1.5c. realiy for room for safety.