2013 Li Battery Fires - Summary Thread

[bigmoose]

NOTE: I locked this thread (where we discussed the idea of having a thread) and started a fresh NEW Thread here for you to post in: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=47012

As we start 2013, and with the discussions on another thread raging, I thought it would be beneficial to have a dedicated, "sticky" thread where there was only a post or two by the person that had a problem or personally witnessed a Li battery problem that resulted in a "catastrophic" event, AKA "fire."

I think the post should have pictures, if possible, and then a summary of findings after the evaluation. I also think this summary post should reference an open discussion thread on the incident where we can all jump in with opinions, analysis, and Monday morning quarterbacking the event.

This will provide a focus for new Li battery users, and an archive of catastrophic issues. If we continue it over the years, we will have documented evidence if we are getting safer in our designs and implements or not.

So take the poll below. Add comments if you think this is a good idea or not. Then in a few weeks, if you think it is stupid, I'll lock the thread and let it die. If you think it is a good idea, I'll clean up the thread (delete the comments) and let it hang out there for the year as a sticky.

 

[SamTexas]

I think it's a good idea. But only if the real cause is known and that cause is directly related to the battery chemistry.

I think we have seen enough fires that are caused by shorts. Reporting those fires only exacerbates the already confusion about the relative safety of different chemistry and different format.

Also please do not include fires or explosion that are done deliberately, like charging a single LiCo cell at twice its voltage or twice its max charge current. Those fires should be reported in the Entertaining section, if one exists.

 

[neptronix]

I like your idea, but i think we should also cover reports from accidental abuse or mistreatment, just to keep what NOT to do fresh in the minds of folks who are new to the forum or new to dealing with these kinds of batteries. The thread would get bumped up to the top of it's section often enough for it to remain relevant.

 

[MattyCiii]

I would imagine such a sticky thread work as follows:
One post per "event". The poster makes a thread to discuss the incident, throws in a link to that thread, and briefly summarizes what happened. So most of the talk about that one event goes on in its own thread.

 

[bigmoose]

I would imagine such a sticky thread work as follows:
One post per "event". The poster makes a thread to discuss the incident, throws in a link to that thread, and briefly summarizes what happened. So most of the talk about that one event goes on in its own thread.

Exactly what I had in mind!

Let's think through the Root Cause = Short issue. Clearly not a problem with the internals to the cell; but it is a problem with the battery. I would suggest we discuss these for if we can understand what we are doing wrong, our batteries will get better. Perhaps using nomex tubing over all primary cables, perhaps also on cell sense wires. Perhaps using real "fish paper" in our builds. There may also be a connector issue, perhaps over amps and softening. Discussing these in the Catastrophic Event's Incident Specific Thread, then posting the summary with the incident might be useful.

When we do failure boards at work, nothing is "off limits" or "out of bounds" as we look for the root cause, followed by the corrective action. It might be useful here?

I envisioned the format to be something like:

Thread Title: 2013 Li Battery Catastrophic Events - Summary Tread
Poster:
1) Puts a title in his post that describes the battery: 36V 20 AHr A123 Pack
2) Incident: bla bla bla with pictures
3) Link to discussion thread and duplicate the same info in #2 in the incident specific thread
4) Suspected Root Cause: Original Poster comes back after figuring things out as best as he can and edits post to add the best probable root cause right in the original summary post.

Then the mods will keep extraneous posts out of this summary thread and put them in the individual discussion threads if need be.

Then this thread would be sort of a composite battery build best practices based on field experience.

Keep the comments coming! We are refining it.

 

[mauimart]

I like the idea. I am especially interested in knowing what conditions (manufacturing, abuse, or otherwise) lead to shorts that take place inside an individual cell. Of course the root cause of any catastrophic failure will always be difficult to determine given the charred remains of such an event. Here is a similar thread I found on the RC Groups forum. There seems to be no shortage of fires there...

Lipo Fire Incidents by Cause (4th post)
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209187


Reported lipo fires (4th post)
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1287041

 

[nicobie]

Can't go wrong with a thread structured like that.

Most likely heavy pruning will be necessary.

 

[Takemehome]

Good idea

...I envisioned the format to be something like:

Thread Title: 2013 Li Battery Catastrophic Events - Summary Tread
Poster:
1) Puts a title in his post that describes the battery: 36V 20 AHr A123 Pack
2) Incident: bla bla bla with pictures
3) Link to discussion thread and duplicate the same info in #2 in the incident specific thread
4) Suspected Root Cause: Original Poster comes back after figuring things out as best as he can and edits post to add the best probable root cause right in the original summary post...

Suggestion: Add to 1) bought from xxxx as a pack or as loose cells
It would help us spot the bad vendors if they appear frequently

 

[amberwolf]

better to use the wiki as the summary?
http://www.endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/Fires

but sinec thats not in your pol i had to pick sticky evne though i think thats not the bets place for it.

 

[Arlo1]

I like stiky's better then the wiki. Wiki is great but this one thing is a BIG problem we really need a sticky so people get it shoved in their face to see what they need to learn from others.

There is two parts to this
1 the people wanting to use lipo (or all batteries for that matter) need to know how to be as safe as they can with it.
2 We can design safer systems. IE something simple to monitor all cells while in use. Methods boards etc. and nomex inside our battery box's and things of the like for the chance if there is a fire help stop it from spreading.
Dave you say you will never have a battery powered car in your garage...
What if the cells should never catch fire because of the awesome protection we design for them.... But just for added protection we have them wrapped in nomex and all that gets out is smoke? So then is smoke going to ruin your garage? I try to keep my garage as a work environment so some smoke I can deal with not a fire that might spread....
I am 100% for this and I would like to help the progression of this. We might be able to get help from engineers who work with this as well maybe safer cells in our future..... I can tell you this I worry about my lipo but it stays at my rented 3000sq shop for now but one day SOON very soon I will be using it to power a colossus power bike or two and more things and the plan is to charge at night......

 

[bigmoose]

Arlo I like how you are thinking. I agree with evolving the design(s). Today I was pondering once we get going, perhaps setting up a formal FMEA (Failure Modes and Effects Analysis), sort of teaching folks how to do it, and letting the community do a Battery FMEA on say a 36/48 Volt A123 20 AHr prismatic battery design. We would need a candidate design, either CAD or with pictures to do it from. The industry uses these tools for a reason. If we serious, we can learn from them!

Smoke we can deal with in a garage. Fire will likely propagate... I will admit I am over the top safety wise with things I either don't understand, or can't predict it's behavior statistically. As I have mentioned to some, my A123 20 AHr cells are stored in a trailer, that is downwind of the house.

 

[Ricky_nz]

Arlo I like how you are thinking. I agree with evolving the design(s). Today I was pondering once we get going, perhaps setting up a formal FMEA (Failure Modes and Effects Analysis), sort of teaching folks how to do it, and letting the community do a Battery FMEA on say a 36/48 Volt A123 20 AHr prismatic battery design. We would need a candidate design, either CAD or with pictures to do it from. The industry uses these tools for a reason. If we serious, we can learn from them!

Could even educational/entertaining to perform the analysis on known bad packs such as vpower.

 

[aroundqube]

Is this only for events that occur from Jan 1,2013 forward ? Either way, I vote in favor.

 

[bigmoose]

Is this only for events that occur from Jan 1,2013 forward ?

That is what I was thinking. One year only, to give some order to future events. Then to have a new thread for 2014...and so on. If there are no entries, that would be a good thing!

The past stuff has been reported and described in various threads, and to varying depths. It's usually hard to recover more data when going backwards. If you have any ideas how to sort/the old threads, feel free to post it up.

NOTE: TMaster provided this link to the RC Communities LiPo Fires: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15776103&postcount=4

My intent here is not to document/analyize all LiPo Catastrophic events, but just "ours" with batteries built to what "we" had thought were adequate requirements. Where "our" and "we" means the ES community.

NOTE: I locked this thread (where we discussed the idea of having a thread) and started a fresh NEW Thread here for you to post in: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=47012