50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

[maydaverave]

Are you sure it's derestricted? If it still has the washer between the variator pulleys its not going to do faster than 25 mph no matter how much power you put through it or how heavy of weights you put in it unless of course you increase the rpms.

 

[gwhy!]

Are you sure it's derestricted? If it still has the washer between the variator pulleys its not going to do faster than 25 mph no matter how much power you put through it or how heavy of weights you put in it unless of course you increase the rpms.

Yes it is defo derestricted ( there is no washer ) the belt travels right to the top of the variator when on the stand and the wheel speed is 40-45mph ( wheel speed max's out at around 30-35mph no load if there was any sort of gear limiting ) If there was more rpm from the motor this will push the rollers right to the top of the ramp im sure, but as it is more weight is needed on the rollers because of the less centrifugal force that's applied from the motors rpm. Its quite nice not to have to think about the power band as this is what makes it a bit more tricky to tune a transmission on a ice.

Edit:
Ideally the variator ramps need to be linear I think for a lecy setup, standard variator ramps tend to have a steeper bit just before the top of the climb ( top ).. uhm maybe a aftermarket performace variator would be a better choice, these also tend to have 9 rollers instead of 6 which means you can up the roller weight more. I think the max roller weight that can be achived is only gonna be about the 20g ( because of its size ) is a extra 3 rollers should give you that little bit extra weight if needed. The max power is only ever gonna be about 3 or 4hp on a 50cc scoot using the standard torque spring, So this is also gonna have to be changed when I start upping the power output of the motor.

 

[vanilla ice]

I know this thread's subject is a two stroker.. But lately the popular thing for the little 50cc four stroke scooters is this.. instead of wasting time with 80cc big bore kits, they get upgraded to 150cc chinese built motors. Its smarter.. its cheaper and the results are better. Anyway, for you and me this means you can pickup these cast out 50 motors, mechanically complete, for cheap. See your local classifieds for details.. you may find a good start for a similar CVT project to gwhy's!

 

[ryan_lirui]

Very cool thread. I don't know if it's all that much help but there's a ready-made CVT for e-scooters: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14844

 

[gwhy!]

Very cool thread. I don't know if it's all that much help but there's a ready-made CVT for e-scooters: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14844

That drop in replacement cvt for a standard scooter looks interesting..

 

[gwhy!]

Update:
I have now hit my target speed with the rollers ( just over 30 mph ), out with the 17.5g rollers.
View attachment 17.5g modded.jpg
View attachment 17.5g modded rollers.jpg

And in with the 20g rollers.
View attachment 20g roller(steel insert).jpg


All electrical measurements where the same as when the 17.5g rollers were used now the acceleration is brisk upto about 27ish then creeps up to 30 and beyond. I did try and look at what the voltage was sagging to whilst accelerating/riding and I think is was around 32-34v. So if it wasnt for this sag the speed would be around as I predicted 40-45, which with the current gearing ( primary/secondary) is the max speed that is going to be achievable with this motor running at 44v worth of lipos. I will hopefully get some video soon, I will double up on my 44v lipo pack and should reduce the sagging and also improve top speed and acceleration.

 

[Thud]

Hello gwhy,

I was writing a reply marveling at that performance when I realized you are talking KPH (MPH guy here LOL)

Still that is very respectable performance. I thought the losses through belt friction would really be more of a hinderance.
Or am I just underestimating the power of that motor? (I hope that is the case...) good show.

 

[Jay64]

He states mph in his posts.

 

[gwhy!]

Yes the speeds are all in MPH

 

[Thud]

I see it now.
duh,
WOW again. I am still impressed.
looks like another vehicle option has been verified.
When my 86' spree gives up its gost I have more options.
Thanks again, T

 

[bzhwindtalker]

It seems to worck near perfect!
But something like a dna would have better aero and handling no? personally I cant drive a scooter, nothing between legs gives me an unsafe feeling but scooters chassis are just so cheap...
http://www.bikez.com/pictures/gilera/2006/22829_0_1_2_dna%2050_Image%20credits%20-%20Gilera.jpg
http://www.bikez.com/pictures/gilera/2005/21800_0_1_2_dna%2050_Image%20credits%20-%20Gilera.jpg

 

[gwhy!]

It seems to worck near perfect!
But something like a dna would have better aero and handling no? personally I cant drive a scooter, nothing between legs gives me an unsafe feeling but scooters chassis are just so cheap...
http://www.bikez.com/pictures/gilera/2006/22829_0_1_2_dna%2050_Image%20credits%20-%20Gilera.jpg
http://www.bikez.com/pictures/gilera/2005/21800_0_1_2_dna%2050_Image%20credits%20-%20Gilera.jpg

The dna would be the perfect cross over point (scooter/motorcycle) for people who would rather have a motorcycle for what ever reason. like you say you can pick up scooter chassis so cheap, but it would not take to much fabbing to turn a scoot into something that looks like a motorcycle.

 

[gwhy!]

Update:
My son inlaw just came around with his 50cc scoot (which i havent seen since he bought it) and ask to have a go on it ( I havent ridden a 50cc scoot for ages ) anyway his scoot is a un-restricted piag nrg which just happens to be the same engine as my gilera skp, anyway his ice scoot out performs ( top speed and better acceleration right upto that top speed) than my lecy conversion scoot. I measured the max rpm of his scoot and it was only around 8krpm ( this supprised me, thought it would be a little higher his scoot does 50-55mph so the gearing in the back wheel is slightly taller than on my scoot) anyway I am going to take a step back and match his transmission setup with 6.5g rollers and 6krpm clutch springs now in theroy :? my scoot with this setup should out accelerate his but with only a top speed of 45mph. ( I think I got myself all rapped up in first thinking lighter rollers to then thinking NEED heavier rollers thing also I should'nt have take the clutch springs off untill I rode it properly ). I will let you all know the outcome soon

edit:
I think the clutch has also a not so obvious roll (well to me anyway) in making the whole thing work better i.e I have always worked on the engine rpm for engagement, but soon as the back wheel starts moving under load the gearing starts to ramp up which also ramps up the speed of the clutch which will make a stronger engagement for the SAME motor rpm ,( natural clutch slip ) this is why I think I was a bit quick to use weaker springs then try the no springs in the clutch just to improve the launch speed ( which is really good 8) ) but in doing so it has become more of a fixed gear when pulling away hence the higher peak wattage but then at a speed of around 10mph the acceleration seems to tapper off and I think this is because the clutch is not slipping enough to keep increasing the gearing to make the clutch spin faster. I needed to write this down to see if it looks like it makes sense and I think it do. What do you guys think

 

[maydaverave]

More volts and more amps

 

[gwhy!]

More volts and more amps

More amps and volts will come . But at the moment I just want it to work as a box standard unrestricted 50cc scoot which it should do on 44v @around 80A once I have achived this then I will start upping everything until something brakes .

 

[Malcolm]

Good to see all the progress you're making. I realise you're currently running the scooter within the confines of your large private estate, but do you plan to re-register and insure it for the road eventually? The company that happily insured my motorbike up until this year – Carole Nash – has suddenly pulled the plug. They say they don't insure anything but petrol and diesel vehicles, so I'll have to start phoning around again when I've finished the rebuild. This has got me thinking about the boring legal side of things.

It seems as if there could be problems registering and insuring moped conversions since the definition of a moped is a motorcycle with an engine of less than 50cc capacity and a top speed of 50 kph (31 mph). You can't imagine how difficult it is to get through to some insurance call centre staff the fact that your motorcycle doesn't have any ccs :| It may be easier to register and insure machines in the light motorcycle (50–125cc class) as they are just classified as having a maximum power output of 11kW. But then there's the difficulty of getting documentary proof that the motor you've fitted has a given power limit, when we all know that's just a matter of how fast you push the electrons in. For licensing and insurance terms we should really be looking at the controller, not the motor, but try explaining that to most insurers... Sorry for the ramble – just wondered if you've given it any thought?

 

[gwhy!]

Good to see all the progress you're making. I realise you're currently running the scooter within the confines of your large private estate, but do you plan to re-register and insure it for the road eventually? The company that happily insured my motorbike up until this year – Carole Nash – has suddenly pulled the plug. They say they don't insure anything but petrol and diesel vehicles, so I'll have to start phoning around again when I've finished the rebuild. This has got me thinking about the boring legal side of things.

It seems as if there could be problems registering and insuring moped conversions since the definition of a moped is a motorcycle with an engine of less than 50cc capacity and a top speed of 50 kph (31 mph). You can't imagine how difficult it is to get through to some insurance call centre staff the fact that your motorcycle doesn't have any ccs :| It may be easier to register and insure machines in the light motorcycle (50–125cc class) as they are just classified as having a maximum power output of 11kW. But then there's the difficulty of getting documentary proof that the motor you've fitted has a given power limit, when we all know that's just a matter of how fast you push the electrons in. For licensing and insurance terms we should really be looking at the controller, not the motor, but try explaining that to most insurers... Sorry for the ramble – just wondered if you've given it any thought?

Yes I will like to make it all legal eventually and have thought about what will be involved :? at the moment I have no idea what sort of red tape I will hit, but time will tell and I will keep very one informed best I can, I may even be picking your brains for pointers when the time comes

 

[Jay64]

Seems to me that if a motors spec sheet lists the safe limit then that's documented proof of the output.

 

[Jay64]

If they are going to be dumb about the details use it against them to ur benefit.

 

[Malcolm]

Seems to me that if a motors spec sheet lists the safe limit then that's documented proof of the output.

That's how I played it with the Etek motor. I sent my insurer a pdf copy of the motor manual, which gives the maximum output as 15 hp. It was a bit of a gamble though, as the fine print also states that it's not approved for use on motorcycles...

 

[Martin A]

Electric powered (or other for future proofing) mopeds are defined as having a maximum power of not more than 5hp / 4kw as well as having a speed restriction. I believe this is currently 45kmh or 28mph.

EDIT: These are UK regulations. See Robomaniac's post immediately below

 

[Robomaniac]

Electric powered (or other for future proofing) mopeds are defined as having a maximum power of not more than 5hp / 4kw as well as having a speed restriction. I believe this is currently 45kmh or 28mph.

That depends where you live. It seems logic and true.

But

You tell mister the officer that the palm size motor in the scooter is 5HP! He will not believe you! Except if you drive 80km/h with a small mopeds in a 50km/h speed limit :wink: .

If gwhy! can go 80km/h on that little beast, I am totally building one!

 

[Jay64]

Sorry about the dumb question, but why did the crank have to be cut?

 

[katou]

Your methodical approach to making small incremental changes, is going to produce awesomeness!

Great work so far, very curious to see what you do to make it perfect.

Katou

 

[vanilla ice]

IIRC the crank was modded to fit the motor because it was easier than splining/tapering/threading something from scratch to fit the variator setup.

Right laws differ mucho. Where I live scooters are not mopeds. Moped means 30mph max, 2hp max, pedals (if ice). There is no in between here. Legally any 3hp or 35mph scooters are motorcycles and require reg/ins/m1. I'm sure you could skirt this just like many ice guys do, but that is how cali defines things.