Advice wanted: Building an E-Trike

[FlyWheelz]

Hi everyone. Great forum with lot of knowledgeable people.

As a wheelchair user I am unable to go more than 7.5mph, but do get on bike trails and go up to 5 miles each way atleast once a week. It takes a long time to get anywhere. Frankly, its just boring. But I love being outdoors. So I decided to convert a trike to an e-trike.

I am working on an old 1960's Columbia adult trike. It has 24" wheels, 3 speed Shimano hub with coaster brake. The rear axle is 3/4" with Peerless 100's differential.

My goal is to make this trike go 12-20mph on flat ground and be able to go up 5% grade 1000ft hills from a dead stop. I don't know the weight of the trike(maybe 100pounds) and I weigh 115 pounds. I want to go 12 miles round trip which includes 6 of those hills and the rest is flat American river bike trails. Since its a trike, I don't mind going 48v or 60v if I must. I am unable to pedal at all. I need it to be reliable.

I have already tried to use a geared motor from an electric wheelchair driving the chain to shimano hub on this trike. Althought it worked, its super heavy due to two 12v car batteries. It also goes only 10mph tops due to slow speed of gearbox output shaft. Installing larger sprocket did not increase speed but lost lorque and over heats the motor and the speed controller. So I have scrapped this idea and googled my way to this site for help.

I found a video of "Jeff in His Souped up Wheelchair" and he has been my inspiration to continue on with this project. He uses a WE BL36 20" kit running on 5 SLA 12v 12amp batteries. He has recommended this kit and says its so powerful that the tire spins. He has no issues with going up the hills.
[youtube]8r8lk03AMh0[/youtube]

Now, Jeff used a manual wheelchair + front of handcycle as a base so its very light compared to my trike. This is why I am here loking for advice.

I would like all possible recommendations on what kit to get under $500; go geared, direct drive or maybe chain mid drive? Searching this forum got me to look at Ampedbikes gearedmotor kits. But I am worried about heat issues and gears going bad. Other choice I am looking at is the WE BL36 at 48v or 60v. I am leaning towards 20" front hub kits for extra torque and more leg room unless thats bad and must stay with 24". I have access to a Mig welder so can hack up the fork/frame as needed.

Thank you in advance.

P.S. Anyone from Sacramento, Ca that has a good kit and can demo it please let me know.

 

[AussieJester]

I have access to a Mig welder so can hack up the fork/frame as needed.

I'm also in a wheelchair, i built a couple of trikes to jhaul my ass about in :lol: heres a few pics of my last effort
perhaps something along these lines? tray on back to carry gear, i used a carabena to hook the foot rest of my
wheelchair to, to tow it behind me

went pretty well would fore fill your requirements, heres a small Video to show performance
thats using 48v SLA (lead acid) and 1000watt unite motor from TNC Scooters-->

[youtube]_kJb_Y3YWPM[/youtube]

Trike conversion kits are available from choppersus lil over hundred dollars ready to bolt onto a bicycle frame.

There used to be a worklog on the build, floating about here on Endless Sphere somewhere...?

Best of luck anywayz mate.

KiM

 

[FlyWheelz]

Wow AussieJester, I am amazed at what you create.

I been reading, messaging and calling various people and this is what I got so far.

Choice 1: Front Geared hub BMC 400w or 600w motor V2T from Ilia - Kit cost $605 or 705$, with rim, no batteries. These motors will pull me up 10% grade no pedalling according to Ilia which is more than any hills around him. This is the most expensive choice but looks very reliable and efficient at slow speeds under 20mph. Great torque for starts even on a 10% hill. Supposedly the gears are made from composite material. Weak point of the motor is the one clutch.

Choice 2: Front Ampedbikes geared 350w-450w motor - Kit cost $501, with rim, no batteries. Looks kinda weak with nylon gears. For some reason Chris at ampedbikes recommended their Direct Drive 500w kit over geared kit for my application.

Choice 3: Front Wilderness Energy 600w Direct drive motor - Kit cost $289, with rim, no batteries. It needs to be run at 48v or 60v to get good torque. Motor starts up shaky due to sersorless set. Would not be able to start on a 5% hill from dead stop but probably make it up the 5% with no pedalling.

So what do you guys think about these choices?

 

[AussieJester]

Yup if you have no hills or very small ones the frock motor on the front will
likely be a good choice, easy to instal maintenance free and reliable which
for people in our situations (paras) is a priority, we don't have the luxury
of pushing the bike or pedalling the bike home when it breaks. I can't advise
you on what frock motor will be best for the application i know little about them
i am sure one of the frock bois will point you in the right direction, if not
i would recommend a quick pm to Dogman, he owns alot of frock motors
and would be the one i would be asking for advice from...

Best of luck.

KiM

 

[FlyWheelz]

Has anyone tried this and it works?

To Reverse direction of the hall sersorless brushless motor you simply swap any two phase wires that go the motor.

If above is true than that would be a very useful option for me. I would give WE or Aoteama motors a try. Probably overvolt it to get more torque out of it.

 

[dogman dan]

My first Ebike was a schwinn trike with the aotema brushed motor. It was too fast actually, for that frame at 25 mph. I bet AJ's trike corners much better at speed. I found 15 mph about the optimum top speed for that frame, and still be able to dodge the inevitable broken bottle. The bike was stable at speed, it was just any kind of course correction took a long time above 15 mph, and I kept hitting stuff, or just bending wheels in potholes.

I would recomend the front hub gearmotor, and worry less about backing up. Like driving a really big trailer, you soon get the hang of staying out of places you have to back out of. At 1 mph, you should be able to crank the front wheel to 90 degrees and turn completely around in a very very small space. In a pinch, a cane could push you back a few feet from a parking spot that's level.

But if you really want that reversible motor, a brushed motor can do that right? reverse the leads with a switch and have the motor run both ways, and start on a hill. I think if you could locate a heinzmann motor front hub, you could have easy reverse. I think the aotema would be good for the reverse switch idea too, and would self start after a few jerks on a mild hill, but on 5%, you'd have to turn the wheel, get moving across the hill, and then swerve back to uphill travel.

For batteries, go lithium as soon as you can afford it. But a set of 3 12 ah slas will give you about 6 miles of range on an adult trike with an aotema. Tolerable if you only need that much distance.

 

[dogman dan]

The currie motors, though crude by todays standard, still work good, with gearing advantage for torque. Have you even seen these? A bit pricy for an sla bike, but ready to roll for you and a lithium battery upgrade later would be easy as pie.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/iZip-Tricruiser-24-Unisex-Electric-Bike/14237427

 

[docnjoj]

Many controllers have a reverse funtion built in (like my old Crystalite) Backing up on a trike is useful sometimes and can be difficult without leg use. Usually the reverse function is speed limited (but not always)
otherDoc.

 

[Papa]

My goal is to make this trike go 12-20mph on flat ground and be able to go up 5% grade

The "granny" trikes, like your example shown above, make great EV conversions, but are NOT safe much above 12-14 MPH - and even that's pushing it. The high seat places the rider mass much too high, so tipping or rolling the trike becomes a serious concern.

Delta Trikes (single front wheel - two rear wheels);

1. Seat height should be no higher than 20" (even lower would be better)
2. Rear track width should be, at least 28" (preferable closer to 32" or wider)
3. You'll need 65-70% of the vehicle's gross weight (which includes the rider) on the rear axle
4. If using heavy SLA batteries, place them as low as possible and slightly forward of the rear axle.

This is what I do to 'granny' trikes:

 

[FlyWheelz]

I would recomend the front hub gearmotor

I've talked to Terry from HTB and he also recommended theirs 350w geared motor over any other including BMC. He did say Aotema would work too just for flat roads. I will also look at Currie kits. I think getting the most torqueky motor or motor with gearbox would benefit me the most.

Many controllers have a reverse funtion built in (like my old Crystalite)

Thats something I will look into if I will go with Direct Drive motor or a freewheelless geared motor.

Delta Trikes (single front wheel - two rear wheels);

1. Seat height should be no higher than 20" (even lower would be better)
2. Rear track width should be, at least 28" (preferable closer to 32" or wider)
3. You'll need 65-70% of the vehicle's gross weight (which includes the rider) on the rear axle
4. If using heavy SLA batteries, place them as low as possible and slightly forward of the rear axle.

Those are great points you listed. The seat(from a wheelchair) I got on there now sits at about 20" and close to the rear axle.

Thank you all. Seems like I am narrowing down on the motor.

 

[Papa]

Here's a mobility scooter conversion I did about 2-3 years ago. The idea was slightly higher speeds (10-18 mph), and minimize weight. Everything forward of the rear axle assembly was scrapped and a new main frame was fabricated. The rear wheels were replaced with 3 x 10's and the front is now a 16" (305) bicycle wheel. Weight dropped from 190 pounds to 82 pounds. It is powered by 2P Milwaukee V28 batteries. My 87 YO father now rides it:

 

[zap]

I like that Papa!

 

[REdiculous]

I like it too + very nice! It looks like the seat is hinged like a tractor seat?..smart.

 

[wineboyrider]

You could run a cyclone setup with a freewheel and it would not be a frock motor setup either. You could use that gear system too.
8)

 

[FlyWheelz]

Here's a mobility scooter conversion I did about 2-3 years ago.

Thats one of a kind bad arze scooter. Does it go that fast and whats under the hood? New motor, controller, gears...?

 

[amberwolf]

I have already tried to use a geared motor from an electric wheelchair driving the chain to shimano hub on this trike. Althought it worked, its super heavy due to two 12v car batteries. It also goes only 10mph tops due to slow speed of gearbox output shaft. Installing larger sprocket did not increase speed but lost lorque and over heats the motor and the speed controller. So I have scrapped this idea and googled my way to this site for help.

You might not need to scrap that idea--it can work. My CrazyBike2 uses a powerchair motor thru the chaindrive.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12500&start=0

Do you know if the powerchair motor was a 2-pole or a 4-pole motor, and what original wattage it might've been rated for? Overheating the motor with more power input probably means it's saturated at the level of current it was drawing. Raising the voltage of the system can help you get more power before you saturate it, and raise it's speed, too. At any given voltage, you can only run the motor so fast and get so much power out of it.


I've used two different ones, 2-pole ~300/350W, 4-pole ~650W, each rated orignally for 24V, on CrazyBike2. I used the first one at 24V first, then later 36V, and successfully used it for significant speed (15-20mph) on that 150lb bike, using large SLA batteries about half the size fo car batteries, then later SLA half that size, for as much as 22 miles (barely).

Now it has the second motor, and has gone as fast as (I think) 23MPH but I could've geared it at least a little faster; didn't solely because of the AZ law limiting assisted bikes to 20MPH. Don't know exactly how fast it could go; I'd added a fourth SLA for 48V shortly before the last drivetrain failure (misalignment and too much power bending chainrings and breaking chains), but did not have a chance to test it's speed yet, before regearing it down.

If you'd like help with getting the powerchair motor running on there, I can probably help you figure out a good cheap way to do it. Batteries are your biggest most expensive obstacle if you don't want to use lead, but if you don't mind lead then gathering old powerchair batteries is a good start, and/or batteries from the really big server UPSs when the whole UPS gets tossed out due to electronics failures. I've used both (there's a mix on CB2 right now).

 

[Papa]

I like it too + very nice! It looks like the seat is hinged like a tractor seat?..smart.

Yes, I used a standard door hinge - makes access to the controller and batteries a breeze. It's an older (early 90's) English built Sterling scooter, no mods other than adding a Minarik XP32 controller and the Milwaukee Lithium batteries. Since it's under dad's control, the speed is restricted to about 12 MPH (although I've had it quite a bit higher). I paid $100 for the dead scooter (bad controller), $30 for the Minarik controller (ebay), and $210 for 2 batteris and the charger. I had most everything else.

Here's a few build pics:

Dad says, "thank you all for the compliments"... and to be sure to tell everyone, "that it's NOT for sale!"

 

[zap]

Great pictures... makes it easy to see how you got it to it's current status... thanks!

Dad says, "thank you all for the compliments"... and to be sure to tell everyone, "that it's NOT for sale!"

Everyone has their price :wink:

 

[FlyWheelz]

You might not need to scrap that idea--it can work. My CrazyBike2 uses a powerchair motor thru the chaindrive.

Hi, thanks for posting. Please jump to http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=20258 I made another post in none hub section. Maybe you can help.

 

[dogman dan]

Check your private messages FlyWheels.

 

[FlyWheelz]

Just an update:

I have decided to go with the rare 9C 6x10 motor in a 20" wheel from e-bikekit (thx dogman) for my trike. Top speed with 48v should be 15mph.

Before

Currently

Photoshop future

 

[dogman dan]

With the 6x10 motor in that small a rim, it's gonna pull great, and yet be able to haul a lot of weight without getting all hot. You'll have a lot of controll at 5 mph too, unlike most faster hub motors. Looking nice.