AM dual motor = bafang middrive + rear hub motor

[John Bozi]

Pendragon, I have been learning parallel to fixing and riding my tank. It's been a great journey into understanding what is possible and not. I came from mountain biking direction wanting to only to go up hills but have discovered that this is impossible.

1. the weight on a bump is a major problem I have discovered so forget logs.
2. the hubs can't go up hills in low gear.

After finding all this out I have ridden my tank and have found a new love for carving the bitumen and bike paths. I don't care about climbing hills or dropping off logs anymore with an ebike.

I still know I want a full suspension single speed bike that doesn't look like a motorbike which uses safe batteries and can get me cruising between 50-60km.

The tank is actually now pretty close to perfect for the $580 + old bike I had I was gonna let rust. It just can't handle the bumps in the bike paths, bitumen layers or potholes.

I think my final perfect bike will not have dirt on the mind anymore. (I will keep my carbon mtb for that)
If I build my dream bike it should be efficient, not carrying more battery than the trips it will do.
If I build the super sexy bike I wouldn't use it to park at work as it would get flogged. I would only build it to do a round trip of 10kms.

This is commuting to my oldies house or to the shopping centre which is pretty safe with the cameras and short shopping times. A 10km round trip needs only about 8ah battery I imagine, easier to fit in my sized frame and bring down the weight.

As for Hyena yea, I think I have emailed him since you suggested, but have contacted everyone you have suggested in this thread.

I imagine more than 48v will mean more overheating wire issues so am starting to shy off that again.

What I want to do right now is make my own battery if possible using lifepo4, so the shape will suit perfectly. I need to research how to connect those hobby king batteries to the controller.

 

[pendragon8000]

With higher voltage, the amps required for a set voltage is less so it can be benificial to have higher voltage. Eg extension cords handle 2,400 watts no worries and its 240v . I car stereo that pulls that power needs big thick wires at 12v.

 

[John Bozi]

I asked John K for a 72V crystalyte kit and he replied

The HS3565 I have plenty of. They will run at 65km/h on 48V which is much easier than messing with 72V packs.

I don't know how it is easier...

This is the final quote I got from John K

Crystalyte HS3565 Rear Hub motor laced to a 26"x32mm black, double walled rim. (disc brake compatible) - $450
Crystalyte 12 FET, 48V40A digital controller - $270
Crystalyte Split Twist Grip throttle - $20
48V10Ah LiFePo4 battery with 2hr charger - $620
Shipping - $40
Total - $1400

It all looks good except I will probably get a battery elsewhere as he doesn't custom them.

What do you reckon Pendragon? If this things goes 65kmh than that is enough for me.

If it is a 40A controller does that mean I should use a 40C battery?

This one is rated at 20 constant but 40 burst.

Spec.
Capacity: 3000mAh
Voltage: 2S1P / 2 Cell / 6.6V
Discharge: 20C Constant / 40C Burst
Weight: 167g (including wire, plug & case)
Dimensions: 132 x 44 x 15mm
Balance Plug: JST-XH
Discharge Plug: JST & Futaba

Will it be suitable to never cut out?

LifePo4 doesn't really have better discharge rates.

Would the controller mean I need to give up on lipo4 and use lipo to use a constant such as this?

Spec.
Minimum Capacity: 2200mAh
Configuration: 3S1P / 11.1v / 3Cell
Constant Discharge: 40C
Peak Discharge (10sec): 50C
Pack Weight: 204g
Pack Size: 104 x 27 x 35mm
Charge Plug: JST-XH
Discharge plug: XT60

this all from hobbyking

 

[pendragon8000]

I say get the full kit from John, because:

- it IS easyer to have a motor that goes required speed from a battery you can just plug and play.

- if you go hobby king lipo you will have to disconnect the modules into 25volt portions and charge as such. Many do this but seeing as you're not to experienced with electronics and lipo I would say forget it for now.
If you want to build a hobby king lipo pack you COULD use 10s turnigy nanotecs. For 42-38 volt battery. So you save s few $ but less top speed.(55kph)

I can tell you I'm quite sure you wouldn't be disappointed with the quoted kit from John.
The kit quality should shit all over your previous one from china.
10s nano tec is ~$120 per 5ah + $250 for powerfull charger and power supply.
I would go 20ah if I was doing it so that would be $720 ish .

 

[John Bozi]

I can tell you I'm quite sure you wouldn't be disappointed with the quoted kit from John.
The kit quality should shit all over your previous one from china.

thanks for the feedback man, all I can say is the battery dimension he gives me will have to be worked with somehow. possibly a rear rack or infront with not much leg room. Thanks for the confidence though, I will buy from him now.

 

[John Bozi]

Potentially facing another headache now.

The KHS bike specs are:

Rims: WTB SX19 Disc, 26" 32 Hole, Double Wall
Hub - Front: Alloy 6 bolt disc w/CNC rotor flange, quick release
Hub - Rear: Alloy 6 bolt disc w/CNC rotor flange, quick release, Cassette
Tyres: Kenda Slant 6, 26 x 2.1" Folding

John K's quote:

32mm rim

Will the wheel fit?

 

[pendragon8000]

Yeah man. It should be fine. I got a 40mm rim in an old mongoose frame that had a 20mm rim standard. The tyre is the wide part anyway.

 

[pendragon8000]

I was just thinking before. If you hsvrnt got the kit yet, see if you can get John to sell you controller with a cycle analyst v3 direct plug so you can have efficiency mode and street legal mode. Also displays s bunch of use full info and has motor temperature protection.

 

[John Bozi]

I plan to ask that too thanks, been busy, but last night i made a mock up cardboard box of his battery dimensions.
150x160x195mm
Nothing I can do with it unfortunately.

Should I go a rear seatpost rack or just buy all else from him and source out the battery later?

 

[pendragon8000]

Wow that battery is a bit of a shit shape.
I say top tube. Or secondary to that in front of the handle bars. Or third on a rear rack.
Then alternatively make a 10s battery pack with turnigy nano tec 10 15 or 20 ah.
Some would say up front is best for weight distribution especially with a hard tail.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__35489__Turnigy_nano_tech_5000mah_10S_25_50C_Lipo_Pack_AUS_Warehouse_.html
You would need a 10s charger and cell monitors, 2 x 6 or 8s would do.

 

[John Bozi]

Wow that battery is a bit of a shit shape.
I say top tube. Or secondary to that in front of the handle bars. Or third on a rear rack.
Then alternatively make a 10s battery pack with turnigy nano tec 10 15 or 20 ah.
Some would say up front is best for weight distribution especially with a hard tail.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__35489__Turnigy_nano_tech_5000mah_10S_25_50C_Lipo_Pack_AUS_Warehouse_.html
You would need a 10s charger and cell monitors, 2 x 6 or 8s would do.

This is what does my head in. spent months looking at bikes to match and then oh NOT gona put in the triangle now, so ffffffffffffffffffffaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaak.

 

[pendragon8000]

Chill bro. You could put it under the top tube I think. 15 wide by 16 high . It should fit moderately central and wouldn't hinder pedaling as the inner most point of pedals should be further out than the battery. Did you get the bike?

 

[pendragon8000]

as such

 

[John Bozi]

as such

Havent bought anything yet, just ummin and ahring.

Thanks for the input, but have doubts that it will fit. If it does it will be hard to secure with that tube angle anyway. Id have to buy the largest bike, which will be hard for me to mount and then again still guarantee it will fit. there are some sizes listed on there but no internal negative spaces. Hard to guess. If it were in a shop here in town i could go in and measure but this is an online shop in nz.

If I were to go a rack like this - I dont want a big bike, no point for me. Even this external size wont fit it Size: 14.5x20x22

Capacity 9 kgs = good but when i drop off a gutter those 9kgs turn to much higher and might snap?

I think the best thing is to just buy his kit without the battery.

 

[pendragon8000]

if you want to go rear rack (i sugest dont) you can triangulate it as i have seen done successfuly by a guy at Jaycar. he had some 10mm aluminium tube going from the back of the rack to the frame suspension pifot bolt. doesnt have to be on the bolt. he had 2 of them and he said he didnt care about handling cos it was a high speed / powered commuter, not an off roader. but it looked quite solid.
you could go for 2 or 4 10s 5ah blocks so you dont have to worry about series parallel charging and sill have a good top speed. just plug into controller or charger. otherwise you can use 4 x 6s 5ah blocks and run them in series on controller and parallel on charger. i'd go with 10s if you dount understand that, because you can get 10s s chargers.

 

[John Bozi]

John's battery sounds good to my newbie ears.

the battery is a 48V10Ah LiFePO4.

It uses Headway 38120S cells. (there is a lot of info about these on the net. So they're rated at much higher discharge rates than what you need for the kit. Which makes them tough and gives less voltage sag under high load.

The BMS will allow you to discharge at 40A continuous and 60A peak which is exactly what you need to run one of our kits. It also does resistive balance on charging and has short circuit and over discharge protection.

I think I will bite the bullet and just buy the bloody battery and sort it out later.

I want to see how much I hate the back rack, and will buy one of these anyway

might be able to turn it upside down and have it forward in front of me - it has a nice curve for a bar with velcro underneath it meant for a pump.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Cycling-...pt=AU_Cycling_New_&hash=item3a7fc16284&_uhb=1

because the only time I can escape the house is to go buy groceries so even if I dont put the battery in it I can still use it. and dam my back hurts after getting a mole cut out.

Other thing is in the picture it would suggest that 12cm of rear travel will hit the bag. that means a big call between buying the either the smallest bike or the largest. If a rear rack will be used I haved to use the smallest to be able to put the seat up high enough for this not to hit. ah the fun of guessing. (sometimes I think i should just buy a fn moped)

Fn tank keeps cutting out if I give more throttle than it can handle. I have 3 little lights and when I give throttle the top green one turns off if its pulling to much power. If I stay under what that it doesnt cut out. It never used to this. I am guessing one of the connections in battery pack has disconnected again.

 

[John Bozi]

Still going john k but the fudgin bike I was gona get 135mm just lost its 50% discount going from $1k to $2k so f that and started researching and found a 140mm even better travel bike with v dropouts.

so change it all yes $600 more but thats ok for that much more travel and wider widths for a more torque motor and exclusive air forks (other bike was air coil). I am settled to buy this

http://www.cyclingdeal.com.au/buy/hasa-30-speed-dual-suspension-mountain-bike-slx/XC1D11?pgnum=1

sure I wish i could go with the glory 2 2012 instead but it just aint got he dropouts.

This thing has

so all is done and dusted just have to wait for a reply from jk that I can change to the 40 version.

I will buy this as soon as I hear from him.

On kit one front major fn dramas. Last night it stopped working. Opened battery box to discover the filler my dad put between batteries was still wet after weeks. And that where we had soldered had totally corroded. full of rust and just a bloody ridiculous mess to clean out.

Learnt a lot but the battery has had the dk might be salvagable with more copper wiring or something that flexes with bumps but now we have the added problem of the start of rust!

live and let learn.

 

[John Bozi]

Kit 1 cost $580 + old unused hardtail. It was my introduction the Ephenomenon to see what I thought of it and to discover the ins and outs of what you don't perceive on the surface, thanks to all that helped build it and glad I didn't ruin my carbon mountain bike for hitting the moutain trails with. "The tank" however did cause an amazing amount of problems.

1. poor wiring problems between controller, motor and battery and xlr charger adapter about 10 times since I bought it.
2. also spot welds that were melting the casing and about 5 times disconnected spots in the battery.

So with a ton of research and thinking and rethinking the passion has not died but has come to final build with no backing out of for now.

A full suspension Hasa bike with 16cm of rear and 14cm of front suspension was chosen for it's lowest price for the highest amount of travel and vertical dropouts. $1640 delivered and has warranty and is from an online store that is contactable in Australia. So if there are problems I am not in the cold.

The kit thanks to John K also similarly priced at $1710 will in a nutshell get topspeeds of 65kmh. Same breath of fresh air dealing with an Australian willing to handle a large number of emails backward and forwards. It gives me great confidence for waranties and future possible problems also.

From the $580 for kit 1 jump to $3350 for kit 2. (I have always kept keeping this under half the price of a stealth fighter as a major factor - because if it started nearing the price I would have had to buy a fighter)

I have confidence in the few grand extra that his will work as a fast urban bike able to handle the going up gutters and other bumps in the road at a "legal" high speed. Too fast for most roads where I live but just under the radar.

I feel once I clicked all the payments that a long journey of research is mainly finished.

Now it is to fit the disc brake, construct the torque arms and best solve the battery position.

thanks to all who have helped especially Pendragon who didn't give up on the never ending tinking process. I owe you a few rounds of beer.

 

[pendragon8000]

thanks to all who have helped especially Pendragon who didn't give up on the never ending tinking process. I owe you a few rounds of beer.

no wukin furries.. if i get the chance ill be sure to take you up on that offer
yeah its good to see you found a bike that meets the criteria. you could consider making a battery box from 3mm ply and use some right angle brackets on the outside to hold it together, i used small screws to hold it while epoxy set and now its quite strong. many a hit and no sighns of breaking or the plastic cases from jaycar i think. like little weather proof breif cases , for infront of the handle bar mount.

so what are you actually waiting on now? John k to reply, about what?

 

[John Bozi]

Waiting for the kit arrive.

I have ridden the bike around a bit and I am not 100% happy. It doesn't have room in the triangle and wouldn't even in the largest size.

I bought $30 case rack thing but the inside will be way too small. Outside dimensions were different. I mounted it anyway and it would have been pretty cool - I had the rack upside down forwards and the groove under the bag sat nicely on the top tube with just enough knee space.

I searched a ton more and have now purchased a topeak Atype to give more clearance for the 16cm of rear travel. Also bought hookworms and tubes for them. As I found the tyres and width weird for steering the bike.

Further down the track I want to get a wider handle bar as this one is way to narrow. I really don't like the way this thing steers, it seems to turn by itself at slower speeds. You know how some bikes you can easily ride no handed as they hold a line? This thing doesn't. I am not used to the 14cm front travel maybe. I still wish I could have bought a pslope. there is too much chain slap in the 30speed system especially when this thing has so much travel. I reckon further down the line I will have to convert this to a single speed with the smallest cog at back and biggest at front using a widgit and yes tensioner.

My dad reckons I should get a custom made aluminium box with brackets made for the top tube. I am not convinced clamping it will hold against side to side movements though.

I am anxiously waiting for this topeak bag too, hope to hell the battery will fit inside and it will be strong enough. It's 9kg max with a possibly 6kg battery. rear suspension is very soft and huge so should take out a lot of the bump.

The tank will be out of action until my dad gets back from overseas and finish the rearrangement of a few of the batteries, even when it gets put together I have no idea how much damage has been done from the soldering.

 

[pendragon8000]

what your talking about with steering, well i think you'll find because its more of a down hill bike it will have a lower angle on the steer tube so that will make it "steer itself" but onece you throw 2kw at it and you doing a double tripple whammy down a trail or back street you'll be loving the fact you can rub that bug out of you eye(or take a hand off the grips for whatever reason) and the bike will still go where your leaning it to go.

you should be able to sell the carbon fibre bar on this and pay for whatever new bar you get. i suggest going fairly wide with a moderate rise like 760mm wide 25mm rise

something like this http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=80324
i find my monster with the wide bar makes it feel more motor bikeish but still very manouverable, the moderate bit of rise is good to bring the grips a bit closer to the shoulders so i can sit back if so desired but i can still go full tuck (ass over rear axle and spine horizontal) for geting aerodynamic. you might want to order some bmx grips while your there cos the standard grips that come with throttles are usually shit and you might not want to cut your new grips that came with the bike , assuming you're getting a 1/2 twist throttle.
some thing like this http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=33270

 

[John Bozi]

was typing a reply,

knock knock

jk kit arrived and pushys order with same dood - amazing. pushys just ordered sunday night!

ok time to go building

 

[pendragon8000]

No shit that's hell rare. Buil build build man.

Show us some photos or vid ?.

 

[John Bozi]

Who says hub motors are easy to install?

1. I have major problems fitting the disc brake. The part holding the caliper is rubbing the hub and it is far from the frame on the other side.
2. not happy with the spacer for the 7 cog cassete it rubs grinding.

3. turning the motor feels like its got brakes on even more than my cheap hub.

4. just a couple of bits of metal needing welding who knows how to make torque arms. at least the cheap kit had washer with a hook in it functioning as a simple torque arm/bolt thing.

Not happy at all right now. I wish there was someone I could pay a couple of hundred in brisbane to put this together to end my headaches.

Also thought I was getting version 3 CA but box says v2.

dunno I am just concentrated on getting the wheel on first.

ONly positive note is that battery fits the topeak bag.

If you offer only a bit of advice tell me how to solve step 1. rear brakes fitting.

 

[dnmun]

i don't trust feedback. i cannot tell what that battery is built from and when they hide the way they make it and what they use for parts i become very suspicious. i think it may be a Vpower pack in wolf's clothing. got a Vpower charger.