AM dual motor = bafang middrive + rear hub motor

[John Bozi]

Ok stop dreaming about my perfect next build. True to the title never ending problems again.

Full charge went for for about 20 minute ride and hit a bump I think the battery hit the frame and power out. I was going slow under a few kmh nevertheless maybe it is our poor triangle without enough sponge or rubber?

This is why I was scared to go anywhere off road even footpaths uneven felt rough for the battery.

I am scared that this time it is not the wiring but possible the battery has had it. Will have to go check where the power is reading over at dad's next time again.

Oh man I am getting tired of all this. Was having lots of fun prior to that last little bump.

 

[full-throttle]

In which way will this be limited to trail riding?

Short, small, steep HA and doesn't pedal well

 

[deffx]

As you are having problems, which you dont seem to be able to solve, and you wish to buy a very expensive frame to motorise, maybe a "Neo jumper" might suit you. A bit week on power but a good, well thought out and packaged bike. Just my 2cents

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UnJt6Ypb34

Or for the money you could buy a phasor frame, but again you have to instal the electronics

or you can chop up a specialized big hit, but your still have headaches

 

[pendragon8000]

dude get a multi-meter already..

 

[deffx]

LOL. Yes a multi meter is a must. and ghetto building up chinese shit is a pain in the arse, and always a compromise, thats why i recomended the "Neo jumper" .Hell it probably has a guarentee. Take it back if it breaks. Maybe one day a manufacturer will offer a great bike for a good price, but until then.......................

 

[pendragon8000]

LOL. Yes a multi meter is a must. and ghetto building up chinese shit is a pain in the arse, and always a compromise, thats why i recomended the "Neo jumper" .Hell it probably has a guarentee. Take it back if it breaks. Maybe one day a manufacturer will offer a great bike for a good price, but until then.......................

yeah they look pretty good, but the power is piss weak and the battery is 1/3kwh . nice bike for an assist up the hill i guess. it doesnt say anything about speed limt , so thats good cos i reakon a fit guy could pedal that at 35-40kph for about 5 - 10 mins or more.

 

[John Bozi]

One little green wire had come out of the multi plug connection. Back online. It was good that it happen as it gave us an excuse to pull most things off and see everything we wanted to.

I stuck a bit more padding in the base of the battery pack to the point it can barely move at all now.

Dad said what I said ages ago that the motor feels like it is braking too much. No idea really as I have nothing to compare this ebike to another ebike.
So we opened up the motor to see how we could fix it. May be we could if there were a spacer or nut or washer or something to put some space between but we didn't have anything that fit. So at least we realigned the wheel better and it seemed to run better after that. With the extra padding also it was much smoother on bumps.

I was wondering if you guys know what kind of motor this is?

Are these crack lines normal in the picture below?

Do your hubs turn freely?

Because the bearings are fine but when clamped turning the wheel is hard work.

 

[pendragon8000]

looks like normal mold marks from being forged.

 

[John Bozi]

So many options to consider when trying to build my dream bike. The cheap Chinese saga was a test to see if I would be interested in ebike thing. Now I am sucked into riding the ebike more than going up the mountain on my carbon bike.

I am still not sure about bike choices: since the pslope although is an awsome fs ss might be too rigid for the dirt and not offer anywhere for the battery to sit.

Other possibilities (giving up on SS) is to get an fs with a tidy triangle.

I could always put a widgit on the front.

and tensioner on the back

But still doubt it will be as tidy as the milkmoney. I think I'd bite the bullet with milkmoney if it weren't 29"

 

[pendragon8000]

Have you got a priority criteria list? Like:
Rear suspension = or > 100mm
Disk brakes = or > 180
Frame material
Triangle size
Single /dual crown.
Etc..
That Scott looks good. I haven't seen any other Scotts with electric power. I'm sure there must be, maby rare .

 

[John Bozi]

Have you got a priority criteria list? Like:
Rear suspension = or > 100mm
Disk brakes = or > 180
Frame material
Triangle size
Single /dual crown.
Etc..
That Scott looks good. I haven't seen any other Scotts with electric power. I'm sure there must be, maby rare .

My priority is

I have only 3 things I am looking for: single speed full suspension with space for triangle battery.

Then if I put them in order of priority it would be 1.full suspension 2. triangle battery 3.single speed. I could for example have any of those fs ss with a

No idea how bad they would ride.

That limits everything so much that specs for other things are not a priority.

Having said that I like air shocks over springs. Smaller wheel than 29.

I am also starting to even question whether I can accept anything under 50km on flats. So the 12t thing is starting to become less interesting the more I like flying on bike paths. the full suspension is crucial on them so i can veer off into parks. I want to be able to fly on the footpaths and be able to jump gutters with out thinking about the battery or components not liking the jig.

I am starting to research the big jump into 72v to primarily provide more power for hills. This is a big step into the more dangerous zone for me.

The scott is I think over $3000 probably carbon.

 

[pendragon8000]

From what people have said on here don't go carbon for off road. Other than that the Scott genius 30 looks like it has pretty good specs.
Also dont go rear rack battery. The weight is to far back and too high
If its in a handle bar bag/box some people (eg sn0wchyld) say its OK up there. For me I like triangle like my first build. I've thought about splitting a pack to have say 6kg in triangle and optional booster of 3kg in front of bars. Anyway good luck bike hunting.

 

[John Bozi]

Could anyone help point me toward info on a 72v set up?

Which motor can handle it?
Which controller is best with it?
Which battery can back it up well?
Which all 3 work well together without issues?

thanks.

I am waiting for emails about all the bikes I have considered. Many places don't reply or take a long time.

 

[John Bozi]

From what people have said on here don't go carbon for off road. Other than that the Scott genius 30 looks like it has pretty good specs.

This one is alloy but an expensive current version.

This one is 2 years old and on my budget at $1600 not delivered.

 

[pendragon8000]

how much power do you want?

like a low power motor bike?

i would sugest going all out if your getting a top end bike.

Lyen controller 18x4110fet http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=17683&hilit=lyen+4110

and a crow motor with a fat ass rim http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=48647

then the usual radio control lipo from Hobby King. and a charger and powersuply to suit. i recomend cell monitors so you dont over discharge or have some random accident with cell voltages.
1cell = 4.2volt so the lyen 18x4110 can go to 100v absolute max, so if you charge to 4.15 v / cell that actually equates to more than 95% full charge because the discharge curve is not linear, and its also safer for the cells, you could run the controller just under its max voltage with a 24s (24 cells in series setup) so you can use a combo of 4 x 6s bricks (most common) or 2 x10s for 20s or 3x8s for 24s .. the 6s 5ah are good for 2 side by side to fit between the pedals in the triangle, well actually most big blocks are about 5cm wide so can fit nicely 2 wide in the triangle, so you might have a config of 8 bricks put in pairs and then the 4 pairs in series to give you 99.x volts at 10ah. you should be able to get lyen to set up the controller to give you a limit of 80amps fairly safely giving you 8 000 watts and probly peak output power of 3-6kw depending on your wheel size. the main issue is charging the rig... do some research on that.. i would sugest if this sounds all to complicated contact Hyena when he gets back from USA and he will set up i kit for you.
note diferent motors have diferent hub dropout widths, the big motors like crow and crystalyte 540x use a 150mm drop out like expensive mtbs, the crystalyte hs35xx and 9c 's use 135 standard 135mm drop out, so make your decisions b4 buying a bike.. btw you can make adapters for smaller motors in bigger bikes and that can be advantages but effort because with a BIG hub motor and or running a shit load of power you need good solid torque arms / plates, so the adaptor can be a really good chunky torque arm / plate.

soo much info there. anyway. dont be dismayed if you really love ebiking i sugest put in many hrs of research and make a killer ride!

 

[John Bozi]

appreciate all the info - I am slowly trying to understand most of it.

Just got an email the last Scott was sold today. It's an older model in alloy for $1600. Hard to find new older models.

Never mind. I am also thinking about this polygon.

under 5" of travel and still looks like a great triangle space and possibly space behind the seat. Who knows how far back that tyre bends up? Also like as it's only two at the front. It's more of a cross country bike so more suited to real riding with the head angle. Not bad at $1800 delivered.

As for the need for 150 dropouts gee that will really limit choices again.

How much power do I want? Well I think if it goes faster than 60km an hour I will get busted by the cops as I have paid for a lot of fines already in my car just around on suburban streets limited to 50km.

60kmh on a fire road is extremely hazardous aswell imo. I don't own private land.

I was talking to the emv guy and he told me the topspeeds to expect with the 12 or 10t and I think I would miss the 40-50km I approximately have now. I'd be happy with top speed of 60km but I would like the extra power for hill climbing for sure.

 

[pendragon8000]

Speed and power are much different.
Eg my first build Max speed 80kph ,power 3kw.
2nd build Max power 6kw 65kph.

 

[John Bozi]

I realise power and speed are not the same. OR T vs S.
I don't know how ever which choice will give me the best hill climb and keep a top speed on flats in the 50-60kmh.

I have been researching bikes again with your suggestion to look at 150mm dropouts. Is this the same as 150mm thru axle?

Glory 2 is the cheapest bike ($1800) I can get with 150mm thru axle and as you said some fat rims. Only in small size which suits my height but don't know how a battery would not slide down into the coil. Anything more expensive than $2000 starts to push the project out into just buying a stealth fighter territory.

WHEELS
Rims Giant P-AM2 disc 26” x 32H w/eyelets
Hubs Fr: Giant Tracker sealed cartridge 20mm Rr: Giant Tracker casette sealed cartridge 12x150mm
Spokes DT Swiss Competition 14/15G butted stainless
Tires Schwalbe Muddy Mary, EVO DH, 26x2.5
OTHER
Extras Giant alloy 12x150mm rear through axle

I think this really would need me to carry 4 bricks on my back. Personally I think it is crazy to have that much suspension on the bike. If I used more than half of that suspension ability imagine what would happen to my spine with 5kg.

Ah tough tough stuff.

 

[pendragon8000]

I almost bought I giant glory. Nice bike.
Through axle might not be compatible with a hub motor. You would have to cut the frame and do a "Dr bass" torque arm modification.
a stealth fighter may be a good option to save you all the head frocks but the are about $7-8k so you could make 2 mental ebikes that both have twice as much power for the same price. What about a phasor? $2k frame made for holding batteries. They aren't too pretty IMO but functionally they are good. You need all your own components though so you could salvage everything from a dh bike and sell the frame.
[youtube]P4iCYYaeUOA[/youtube]
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=41682

 

[John Bozi]

I looked into the phasor a while ago and I agree something unattractive about it. It also attracts lots of unwanted attention, weight and yes $$$$ just for a frame that is useless if not adding the rest of the stuff to it. A mtb bike you can convert and change your mind and turn back to a normal bike.

That's why I see my budget for all bike parts below $2000 and wouldn't like to spend much more than up to $2000 for the electric side. In reality everything should be under $3000 so my wife doesn't feed my bits to the ducks.
All day I have been researching those batteries (the controller is sold out you suggested). To be honest I also research catastrophic failures which made me decide against anything but lifepo4.

Hobby kind choices from Australian warehouse for lifeopo4:

Capacity: 4200mAh
Voltage: 5S1P / 16.5v
Discharge: 30C Constant / 40C Burst
Weight: 642g (including wire, plug & case)
Dimensions: 145mm x 44mm x 52mm
Balance Plug: JST-XH
Discharge Plug: 5.5mm Bullet-Connector

or

Minimum Capacity: 4500mAh
Configuration: 6S2P / 19.8v / 12Cell
Constant Discharge: 30C
Peak Discharge (10sec): 40C
Pack Weight: 899g
Pack Size: 141 x 43 x 75mm
Charge Plug: JST-XH
Discharge plug: 4mm Bullet-connector

What does the 30C mean in terms of maintaining speed? Would 4x19.8v = 79.2v? Which might roughly get me a top speed of almost 80kmh with the right set up?

Also for a difficult frame I have thought of individually taping each battery to inside to frame. After that once connecting it all up strapping a tough material around the lot of them and the outside of the frame to unify the strength and to keep it looking like an unremarkable cargo bag.

Also I couldn't see an AH spec. How many AHours would for of these give me?

 

[pendragon8000]

1000mah =1AH
I'd suggest make the batteries into parallel blocks and parralel the balance cable (multi coloured wires) then put them all in a padded box that holds them tight and attach the box in the frame.
C rating is how many times the capacity it can discharge constantly..5ah x 30c =150amps but if you make the pack 2p then its 10ah and 300 amps. The voltage drops allot as the amps go up. "Voltage sag"
If you contact lyen he may get more of those controllers in.

 

[John Bozi]

So I need 8 of those above mentioned batteries to get near 10Ah? I am waiting for Hyena, and anyone else who can custom build for my next bike I'd say. There's to much to learn in this new field.

 

[pendragon8000]

Yeah if your not good with electronics a kit is good. Im an experienced electronics hobbyer and have done some payed electronics work , but DIY lipo and controller /motor combos was all new to me. So I got a kit from hyena so I knew I would have a working reliable combination of parts and wiring/plugs. After seeing his kit and doing more research I now have enough understanding to put together my own rig as in my second build.
Ebikes.CA is good to. I would suggest getting a quote for a 18fet controller and a crystalyte 540x motor and maby put 2 life batteries in series or make one with hobby king packs. Also you can get stuff from the global warehouse and the saving equates close to additional shipping.
Ebikes.CA also have cycle analyst v3 device that gives fantastic control over your motor and display heaps of stats. They also sell toque arms.

 

[John Bozi]

Thanks Pendragon for all the help. I am still narrowing down possible bikes.

I have change all my priorities again. I only have two.

Dual suspension and space for a battery. If anyone knows of better bikes let me know.

This rules out all bikes I know of or have mentioned earlier in this thread, bar the polygon collosus and Scott Genius LT.

Looking at the Scott in more detail I am starting to shy away from the complexity of the suspension. It looks like too many things to upkeep. It has a 3 mode switch for suspension - so an extra thick wire and expense that I don't want. I think ebikes have enough wires and this bike is dam hard to find at a reasonable price, so I am ruling out this option.

This leaves me with the
[youtube]PA6_AcQYbvw[/youtube]
MODEL NAME

COLLOSUS SX2.0

MODEL CATEGORY

FULL SUSP XC – XT-SLX 20SP

SIZES (CT)

16.5” / 18.5” / 20.5”

COLOR

BLACK YELLOW GLOSS

FRAME

ALX 6XXX ALLOY XC – FS2

FORK

MARZOCCHI MARATHON LR, 100mm

REAR SHOCK

FOX FLOAT EVOLUTION RL

HANDLEBAR

POLYGON XPERT, 680mm

STEM

POLYGON XPERT, 60mm

HEADSET

FSA GRAVITY SX PRO-1 NO.55-1 + TH-875

SADDLE

FI'ZI:K GOBI OEM MANGANESE RAIL

SEATPOST

POLYGON XPERT

CRANKSET

FSA CK-C7186ST 39/27T, 175mm

PEDALS

SHIMANO PD-M520S

BOTTOM BRACKET

FSA EXTERNAL BB, 68-73MM
CHAIN

KMC X-10

CASSETTE SPROCKET

SHIMANO CS-HG62-10 11-36T

FRONT DERAILLEUR

SHIMANO DEORE XT FD-M785-E2 E-TYPE, 2 SPEED

REAR DERAILLEUR

SHIMANO DEORE XT RD-M780 SGS, 2 SPEED

SHIFTING LEVER

SHIMANO SLX SL-M660

BRAKE LEVER

SHIMANO DEORE BL-M596

FRONT BRAKE

SHIMANO DEORE BR-M596

REAR BRAKE

SHIMANO DEORE BR-M596

ROTOR

SHIMANO SM-RT53 160MM

TYRE

KENDA NEVEGAL 26X2.10”

RIM

RIGIDA RIVAL DOUBLE WALL 26X1.75”

SPOKES

DT SWISS COMPETITION

FRONT HUB

ALLOY 9MM QR STANDARD

REAR HUB

135X12MM THRU AXLE

WHEELSET

POLYGON CENTAUR

Questions

1. Again someone please explain what exactly thru axle means. Does it mean there is no dropout? Is the 12mm enough for the hub motor?

2. Frame size - I would use 18.5 as a comfortable size but consider going to the 20.5" just to give more triangle space. Is this unwise to have a bike too big for me? Or will it actually matter very little as most the time I won't be peddling.

3. Is 4.7 inches = 11.93800 centimetres enough rear travel for dropping off a gutter? I am guessing not off a log. They have more expensive version for another $200 to upgrade to 5.5" travel.

 

[deffx]

Again someone please explain what exactly thru axle means. Does it mean there is no dropout? Is the 12mm enough for the hub motor?

Yep no dropouts as such for a hub motor to slip into, generally a thru axle is a hole rather than a slot, but not always some thru axle designs use a slot and a hub motor or standard qr might be possible. Alot of changing standards (or lack of) are occuring in the dh mountain bike industry. without physically seeing the bike its a tough call. If it has removable dropouts then new ones could be manufactured for a hub motor.




Dude just buy a stealth fighter/bomber