Aussie Ebike Noob needs Help

[Fush]

G'day All

I have for the last 4 months been saving like mad so i could buy myself a car...however i came to the realization, a) I already have a car available to me to use which i don't have to pay to use other then fuel (disadvantage is its unexciting and rather dull) b) there is no parking in the Sydney city where my uni is...unless you have a disability sticker or have a rather unlimited cashflow.

So i already have a mountain bike, its a bit heavy to start with (steel frame) and has limited space in the Aframe as its front and rear suspension, hopefully the extra power of the motor should compensate for the weight as i won't have to carry my bike up a flight of stairs to go around the giant hill to get to uni

I have been looking around and there doesn't appear to be many stores in Australia that stock hub motors and large capacity batteries (nimh/lipo). So i was looking at importing from overseas.

I just wanted to get peoples opionion of the Team Hybrid Puma Motor (Knoixe your videos are awsome) with a 48volt NIMH F-type pack, made out of the following:
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=834

Also does the DrainBrain or Cycle Analyst as its now known work with the puma?

And if anyone else has any suggestions for motors or battery combinations please let me know... Sydney's rather flat with a few ridges hills scattered around, and my ride to uni is only 10kms.

I would rather go with NIMH over LiPo, less danger of them exploding and cheaper and easier to setup, sla's while cheap and easy (i can get them from my work on staff discount) are heavy and on a already heavy bike i think it would suck, NICADS cheap and nasty, better to go with the nimh.. (lol i think already just answered that question myself)

Cheers

Andrew

 

[xyster]

Hi Andrew,

Have you looked at the selection of NiMH at ebikes.ca?
http://www.ebikes.ca/store.shtml

Lowell here uses the 18ah packs -- others have used the smaller packs. I had no problem importing my hubmotor to the USA from ebikes.ca. Their service is awesome, the packs are great (for NiMH), and of course you can pick up a CycleAnalyst -- which works with any motor, though some of the functions are only available out-of-the-box with the crystalyte brushless controllers. A crystalyte controller would be your best bet for use with the Puma too.

 

[Mark_A_W]

Andrew, there's at least two suppliers to the DIY market in Australia, plus a number of kits.

Brett White in Newcastle:
http://www.users.bigpond.com/solarbbq/bikesale/bsale.htm

And ruggedmachinery on Ebay (search ebay forelectric bike).
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Electric-bicycle-bike-motor-kit-26-NEW_W0QQitemZ170126236571QQihZ007QQcategoryZ58099QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Or item number 170126236571


And then there's kits like the e-lation, epac, or the Powerped kit.


If you have a suspension bike, you will have the same dilemma I have:

Front Hub motor:
- replace front forks with non suspension steel one, or
- reinforce front forks to keep suspension forks (I'm doing this, but there is a risk).

Currently I'm running ally suspension forks without reinforcement, but they have twice as much metal around the dropouts as any I've ever seen before, and it's only a 250w motor, and I'm keeping my eye on them. But it is a risk.

- Disc brakes can be a pain, but motors with disc mounts are around. V brakes on the front don't work very well once you bend your rim..

Rear hub motor:
- Unlikely you will be able to get the same number of gears in the rear cluster as I have now
- Disc brake less important, but hard to squish in.


I'm happy with the acceleration/hill performance of my 250w front hub motor from ruggedmachinery, but I wish it had more top end speed. Planning to try 48v with it, once I get forks reinforced (I have a pair of triple clamp Marzocchis on loan).

Bottom Bracket drive

- Kits like E-lation or Epac are around, and allow you to work with your gears. But they have brushed motors, and I don't fancy replacing $$ crankset with the stuff in the kits. On an old steel bike this may not be a concern.

http://elationebikes.com.au/
http://epacpower.com.au/


Now you have to decide if you want to stay legal or not..

Hope this helps

Mark

 

[Fush]

Hi Andrew,

Have you looked at the selection of NiMH at ebikes.ca?
http://www.ebikes.ca/store.shtml

A crystalyte controller would be your best bet for use with the Puma too.

I take it the pack you where referring to was the 36v 18amp?

What would that be like compared to the 48volt 14amp that i was planning out of f cells? I was looking closer to 48volt just for the sake that it would be a bit more fun/speed and probably wouldn't have to charge it at work or uni

The Puma comes with a crystalyte controller is that correct?

I was planning for the bike to be rear wheel drive, are the rear dropout forks all the same size or do they vary? and there any major issues or advantages with putting the hub motor in the rear over front.

Regards

Andrew

 

[Fush]

Hi mark thanks for your reply..

Well i think i will go legit with the ability to go illegal offroad, so basically limit it on the DrainBrain to whatever the NSW laws are...I think its 22kph when on the road and then be able to remove that limit when it comes to having some fun offroad.

hmm...as much as its a bit cheaper to buy from Australia I kind of have my heart set on the puma...but then again i would be happy to change my mind if someone could give me a definite reason why i should avoid the puma over another motor or if there is a better motor worth investigating.

are you saying there is issues with the gears/rear derailer if i put a hub in the rear?

cheers

Andrew

(Going to work now, will be back later)

 

[xyster]

I take it the pack you where referring to was the 36v 18amp?

I guess they sold out of the 24 volt NiMH packs -- I was thinking two of those in series for 48 volts.

What would that be like compared to the 48volt 14amp that i was planning out of f cells? I was looking closer to 48volt just for the sake that it would be a bit more fun/speed and probably wouldn't have to charge it at work or uni

Oh yeah, definitely 48 volts at least!

The Puma comes with a crystalyte controller is that correct?

Some do, some Puma kits come with a crummy 15 amp controller.

I was planning for the bike to be rear wheel drive, are the rear dropout forks all the same size or do they vary?

I'll let the bicycle experts here tackle that question.

and there any major issues or advantages with putting the hub motor in the rear over front.

A perennial question that's received much discussion, as you'll find by searching here. Basically, if you're going to run 48 volts or more, for safety's sake either the hubmotor needs to go on the rear, or beefy torque arms must be bought or fabricated to prevent a front hubmotor from shredding much weaker front dropouts.

 

[Mark_A_W]

22kph? Are you sure? In Vic it's 200watts, no speed limit.

My unassisted speed of 27kph or so feels like crawling. Assisted at 32-33kph is still not fast enough. I want 38-40 assisted on the flat.

Anyway, as far as I can tell, the Puma is the duck's guts. The only disadvantage is price - motor alone is gunna cost you A$1500 if the 400 pound price is correct (shipping, GST, etc).

Things I'd want from a rear wheel:
- Ability to fit same number of gears in rear cluster as bike currently has (not so easy if you have 7, 8 or 9..). You can fit a 5 or 6 gear cluster, but from what I gather you'll need a new shifter.

- Disc brake mount. Optional I guess.


Rear dropout size is 135mm. You have to fit it all in there, or bend frame out - steel is good for that.

I'm yet to try a bottom bracket drive system.

Mark

 

[Geebee]

There is no limit to speed in OZ as far as I am aware and 100% sure in Tassie.
The laws are weird regarding Wattage as the specifications state 200w MAX at the motor shaft, I have checked with the dept. of transport on this, but nearly all (in fact all as far as I know) of the legal systems in Australia are 200w continuous output with much higher peak wattages.
On the plus side I was told by the tech dept. that as long as it was pedaled and below 200w anything goes, ie. 1~12 wheels any width length etc.

A bottom bracket drive will give you a higher top speed at the cost of noise and having to use the supplied crank hardware.

Mark the speed you are after can be had without assist by using a faired recumbent bike or trike, mine will maintain 45 kph as a fast cruise or 40 relatively easily on the flat. I generally ride in steep terrain and rode out to some flat ground a few months ago and could maintain the above over 4~5ks (ran out of flat ground) .
With a 200 watt crank drive the above vehicle should have no trouble rouding up cars at 60 kph on the flat.

 

[Mark_A_W]

Can it jump up gutters? I cross straight over 5 main rds (with centre strip) on my commute. And a rutted dirt road, then across 1k of grass.

Yes, lots of short cuts.

I'm sorry, but I can't imagine a recumbent being capable over rough terrain..

Also, I don't fancy taking more width in traffic on a trike, and being so low and unable to be seen or see what's coming.

Cars don't see me already, with lots of lights and my head 6ft off the ground. It's dark when I ride home...bloody winter..

That's why it's a mountain bike for me. Not as aerodynamic, but I think it suits me better.

 

[BiGH]

Hi Andrew!
I'm also in aus, trying to choose between differnet hub motors etc. The choice is certainly a hard one. The puma is an excellent motor, and the lightest of the hub motors you'd be most likely looking at. The big downside is the price. Shipping and everything on it is HEAPS. i'm currently looking at either the puma or a Crystalite 408 from Brett (http://www.users.bigpond.com/solarbbq/bikesale/bsale.htm). The Island Earth GL-1 and 2 are also two motors you might want to look at. There is a vid on youtube of a GL-1 on a bike track doing 40kph unassisted. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1977546003028798554.

These have different controllers to the crystalite, and would require you to open the hub motor and modify where the hall sensors are to run the crystalite controllers.

most of these kits are around 1/3rd the price of the puma thats really the thing thats upsetting me about the puma - it's cost! . I'm thinking i might get one of these kits, then if i need the extra torque get a puma later. Can't hurt to have a spare hub motor lying around =)

What state are you in? - edit sydney.

IF you're in a flat area i'd suggest possibly getting a 406 or 407 crystalite motor - would provide for higher top speed. (check out the bikes in the ebike videos and pics for more info on speeds you're likely to get out of these hub motors)

edit 2: oh and RWD > FWD so get RWD if u can

 

[Nimbuzz]

I have found Brett White, in Aus, very good to work with. Brett knows a lot and is very dedicated.

http://www.users.bigpond.com/solarbbq/

or Big Pond

 

[Fush]

Ok I made a list of items needed

Using the optimistic conversion totals of the Australia New Zealand Bank (ANZ)

I have reached a optimistic price of my ebike


Puma Motor + Rim $1132.80AUD
CycleAnalyst $132AUD
Batt Charger $91.16AUD
Battery Pack 48v 12A $541.31AUD

Grandtotal of 2071.95 + $40 in Bank fees and Another $60 for P&P

I don't know if anyone is interested but i wonder if there is enough demand down here AUS & NZ to get a couple shipped down at once, we might save a bit on cost and p&p

 

[Mark_A_W]

Fush, did you include shipping and GST? They'll sting you on the motor, and maybe the battery.


Oh and BigH, I've actually found that with a 250w motor, FWD works really well. The bike is effective AWD and it pulls you through the corners.

Now with 750w and slippery, muddy roads, I'd change my tune.

But you can do cool front wheel burnouts on a wet road by leaning back, pulling the back brakes, and cranking the throttle

 

[Geebee]

Mark no worries just offering another possibility
'Bents aren't for everyone.
I take my trike on light MTB tracks so some offroading is ok, can't jump a full height curb though.
I have way less traffic issues in the trike than on my MTB, it's different and they stay well away and are also friendlier.
A mate who saw me out at night said the trike looked spectacular and was unmissable, the fairing is semi translucent so the lights make the entire shell glow.

Re: the Puma, the biggest drawback maybe that it is so powerful as to be obviously a powered bike.
I have been pulled over once on my faired trike (actually chased down by 3 police cars) as someone reported a powered bike riding through traffic due to the speed I was going, In my case it is a hpv so not an issue and the police leave me alone now as word has been passed around.
If it had been overpowered I would hate to think of the number of charges that would have resulted, I can come up with 3 without trying.
One other negative of the high power is that weight will rise affecting the ability to bunny hop obstacles.

 

[BiGH]

Fush, did you include shipping and GST? They'll sting you on the motor, and maybe the battery.


Oh and BigH, I've actually found that with a 250w motor, FWD works really well. The bike is effective AWD and it pulls you through the corners.

Now with 750w and slippery, muddy roads, I'd change my tune.

But you can do cool front wheel burnouts on a wet road by leaning back, pulling the back brakes, and cranking the throttle

lol i've filtered out the 250w motor running at 250w from my mind. rode one and found i could just have my light weight road bike - would go the same speed with mild peddling.

 

[Fush]

hmm...yeah i forgot about shipping costs....there wasn't much posted about that...

Does anyone know if the Puma is the same as this from EV Tech
http://www.texaselectricbikes.com/catalog/electric-bike-motor-p-163.html

Because if it is its a hell of a lot cheaper from there then the uk

Regards

Andrew

 

[BiGH]

i'm not 100% sure myself - best to wait until knoxie or one of the other guys who have a puma can give u the info!

edit: it would be great if there was a puma distributor in australia actually...

 

[Fush]

I agree, we are so close to china where they make all this stuff yet we are so far away from the actual shops.

Some of the information i have been reading on http://www.users.bigpond.com/solarbbq/ is absolutely great but its also limited in a lot of areas and the actual products themselves are quite limited, and i have to say move it off bigpond, put on a decent webhost and write a descent website and i am sure he would be making heaps more if he did that..

Looking at the motor on EV bikes its look very similar, the angle of the photo is very hard to give it a positive ID, will have to wait for knoxie to rock up, anyway i think the major difference is the kit included, it looks like its a rather basic controller with a very simple throttle switch, might need to find some upgrades...but either way this one is far cheaper.

Need to find a good thumb throttle switch by the looks of things, some cutoff brakes and a good controller, probably the crystalyte. Is there any good places to find the cutoff brakes and throttles?

 

[BiGH]

I agree, we are so close to china where they make all this stuff yet we are so far away from the actual shops.

Some of the information i have been reading on http://www.users.bigpond.com/solarbbq/ is absolutely great but its also limited in a lot of areas and the actual products themselves are quite limited, and i have to say move it off bigpond, put on a decent webhost and write a descent website and i am sure he would be making heaps more if he did that..

Looking at the motor on EV bikes its look very similar, the angle of the photo is very hard to give it a positive ID, will have to wait for knoxie to rock up, anyway i think the major difference is the kit included, it looks like its a rather basic controller with a very simple throttle switch, might need to find some upgrades...but either way this one is far cheaper.

Need to find a good thumb throttle switch by the looks of things, some cutoff brakes and a good controller, probably the crystalyte. Is there any good places to find the cutoff brakes and throttles?

yep there are numerous places u can get them - i'd suggest getting them with the hub motor - whever you buy that from. I'm personally going the twist grip for acceleration. I tried the thumb throttle, and found it inteferred with the gear leavers too mcuh.

The puma isn't listed on Brett's site, as he doesn't sell it. I think his site is quite good, its not a traditional online shop but has a lot of information and testing on these hub motors. I do find it to be aimed at people with more knowledge on the topic than not, but thats where brett's emails can help

I generally prefer to go local for 2 reasons - easy support in case of a warranty claim and it supports local businesses.

if you decide to get the puma, i'd suggest buying the entire kit from them though. Ususally these things come in a kit as opposed to just the motor on its own. (also its better to get it laced into a rim if possible) - as you will have to pay $$$$ for that too.

 

[Fush]

I'll probably get a thumb throttle, my gears that are really starting to annoy me now are twist grip so a twist throttle wouldn't work

 

[Fush]

Ok well after doing a bit of searching on the forum, it appears that the kit on EV Tech is the Puma/BMC Hub motor...

Anyone know what is and isn't in that kit? by the looks of the photo i will need to get a controller, a rim and spokes...but then again they may not have everything in the picture...the description is a bit vague

but at least it will bring the cost down even if i have to buy some extra stuff to go with it...brings it down to $1521.19 plus shipping

 

[BiGH]

basic controller comes with the kit (higher amp / voltage controller is extra).... $1500 plus shipping GST, labour (for lacing into a rim) spokes and the rim....

ouch - but i'm pretty sure it would be one of the first pumas in the country!

are you SURE you wanna go the puma route (its an awesome motor but ur really paying for it). ie:

http://www.users.bigpond.com/solarbbq/408.htm

408 already laced into a 26" rim = $610 AUD delivered....
you could spend the other $1000(or more) on more batteries. or a new bike!

edit: ps lets chat more - do you have msn? pm me if u wanna chat online. This kind of banter is really helpful for both of us I'm very close to making a decision on my hub motor setup

 

[Fush]

I added you to my list...I am gonna crash now...I have a lovely 2000word project plan due on Wednesday for uni, if you around tomorrow or whenever sure would love to chat more...

Bicycle guidelines
Motorised scooters and mini bikes

Bicycles

The Australian Road Rules defines a bicycle as a vehicle with one or more wheels that is built to be propelled by human power through a belt, chain or gears (whether or not it has an auxiliary motor). A bicycle:

Includes a pedicab, penny-farthing, scooter, tricycle and unicycle.

Does not include a wheelchair, wheeled recreational vehicle, wheeled toy, or any vehicle with an auxillary motor capable of generating a power output over 200 watts (whether or not the motor is operating).

thats from the NSW RTA, I think it would be find as long as I don't go overboard on the speed...and really the only time i am probably going to really open the throttle will be getting up on to the anzac bridge which is a killer and up the side roads past the citywest link which i have only ever seen one cop car there...and with ebikes been more and more popular there is less chance of been pulled over...and anyway i do 40km/h on the flat with my bike on pedal power..

 

[BiGH]

I'll catch you tomorrow Andrew, here's something for you to think about in the meantime:

what are your goals for speed/ hill climbing ability? that will massivly effect the choise of hub motor.
ie:

X5 / 5303,5304 style crystalite kits designed for outright speed and torque (but downside is they are heavy and require alot of batteries). If you increase the voltage /amps then the x5 can handle a LOT more power - ie Lowell on the forum is running up to 7kW through his X5


puma - excellent torque in the lightest possible hub motor - rivalling the x5 series stock for stock. you'd prolly want to run one modified, but they can only go so far. Can increase power to about the same level of a 4 series - ie 72v 35a

4 series crystalyte - cheepest of the bunch - can still extract a decent speed from them but you have to run a higher voltage ie 54v-72v

the "E-Bike Photos & Video" section of the site is awesome - there are lots of examples of all hub motors- esp some excellent writeups on the puma (installation through to performance - check maytag's and Deecanios build threads in particular)

 

[Mark_A_W]

hmm...yeah i forgot about shipping costs....there wasn't much posted about that...

Does anyone know if the Puma is the same as this from EV Tech
http://www.texaselectricbikes.com/catalog/electric-bike-motor-p-163.html

Because if it is its a hell of a lot cheaper from there then the uk

Regards

Andrew

I think the same motor is available here, locally:
http://www.evehicle.com.au/Evo%20offroad%20Kit.shtml?openmenu=5