Bafang BBSHD voltage or 48 V airplane battery

[silentguy]

How many volts can the Bafang BBSHD motor handle I bought this from Lunacycle.
I’m running it off a 52v battery.
I think they’ve upgraded the controller with stronger components to handle the higher voltage and I’m wondering if it could handle even higher voltage. what’s the limit ?I guess I could ask lunacycle but I want to see if somebody else has already figured that out.
My issue is that I would like to take some airplane friendly batteries on carry-on and I don’t see a way of doing 52 V are there airplane friendly packs that are 48 V ?

I need some thing that the TSA would allow on board in Carry on and would be 160 Wh or less for two packs or 100wh or less. I can get LI Go battery packs that are 36 V and I can put them in series to make 72 V.
I guess I need a 160wh 48v or 52v pack


Suggestions On what 48 V battery I can airline travel with?

 

[amberwolf]

i doubt luna has done anything to the controller besides slap their name on it, based on what i've read of their other products. no personal experience so you'd have to look up all the bbshd luna threads to find out what others actual experience is.

the limit of the controller beyond the cap and fet specs is that the firmware limits it, and that is up to bafang to update.

some of the most recent bafang firmware versions appear to actually prevent usage at the full charge of a 52v pack, and disable the system above some voltage below that. ther'es a number of threads about that.

the only fixes in those cases is to not fully charge, or use a 48v pack instead, or risk flashing the firwmare back to an older version with some other limitation or problem that may brick your controller due to incompatibility with yoru ocntrollers hardware. there's threads about that, too.

alternately ther'es threads about changing out the internal controller for a phaserunner instead.


for airplane allowed batteries, whatever you use must be small sections of the battery that are under whatever the present wh-per-battery limit is. ligo doesn't work because it's 36v sections, and there's no way to connect them up that will give you a useful voltage on a 52v system.

if ligo is your only option you can go to wturbers thread about the wangdd converter and use that to boost a bunch of paralleled ligo packs 36v to run the 52v system; it's just not as efficient as directly using the packs.


if you have the skll / time to learn / money to spend on spotwelder/ tools / etc., you can build your own 18650 or other cell type sections of a 52v pack so they are each below the wh limit, and plug them together when you arrive somewhere.


fwiw, a 160wh pack at 52v would only be about 3ah. very slightly higher at 48v, 3.33ah

basically with 18650s that would be 14s1p or 13s1p.

so youd have to parallel several of those to be able to handle the current draw of the bbshd without a lot of voltage sag and wearing out the cells quickly and heating up the packs a lot.

alternately you can build other segmetns of the pack you need that are so-many-seires and so-many paralelel that add up to the same, so if you had 14 cells you could use in each one for 160wh then it could be 2s7p, or 7s2p, or some other combination. then you could series those segments together to make a higher voltage pack. or even assemble the pack like legos with some in paralle and some in series to get the total capacity and voltage needed, as long as you don't exceed whatever the total wh limit there is for carryon or shipping or whatever.

 

[john61ct]

I would like to take some airplane friendly batteries on carry-on and I don’t see a way of doing 52 V are there airplane friendly packs that are 48 V ?

I need some thing that the TSA would allow on board in Carry on and would be 160 Wh or less for two packs or 100wh or less. I can get LI Go battery packs that are 36 V and I can put them in series to make 72 V.
I guess I need a 160wh 48v or 52v pack

Suggestions On what 48 V battery I can airline travel with?

You need to make custom sub-packs, or pay to have them made.

First be certain of your target voltage and overal Ah capacity target,

choose the specific cells you want,

then we can help optimize the layout.

 

[silentguy]

I could make my own packs as I’ve done that before but I’m worried that TSA won’t accept those if they’re home built. I think TSA wants a manufacturer with an official 160 wh or 100 Wh label on it ?

Has anyone had success bringing their own home built battery pack on the plane ?

 

[silentguy]

If I used Li Go 36volt packs 98 wh
and found some 12 volt 98wh packs I could connect these in series to make 48volt packs.

I’d also like to try a 160wh pack , as TSA allows 2 of these.
My goal is to have about 48v. Or 52v 14Ah total

 

[silentguy]

if ligo is your only option you can go to wturbers thread about the wangdd converter and use that to boost a bunch of paralleled ligo packs 36v to run the 52v system; it's just not as efficient as directly using the packs.


if you have the skll / time to learn / money to spend on spotwelder/ tools / etc., you can build your own 18650 or other cell type sections of a 52v pack so they are each below the wh limit, and plug them together when you arrive somewhere.


fwiw, a 160wh pack at 52v would only be about 3ah. very slightly higher at 48v, 3.33ah

basically with 18650s that would be 14s1p or 13s1p.

so youd have to parallel several of those to be able to handle the current draw of the bbshd without a lot of voltage sag and wearing out the cells quickly and heating up the packs a lot.

alternately you can build other segmetns of the pack you need that are so-many-seires and so-many paralelel that add up to the same, so if you had 14 cells you could use in each one for 160wh then it could be 2s7p, or 7s2p, or some other combination. then you could series those segments together to make a higher voltage pack. or even assemble the pack like legos with some in paralle and some in series to get the total capacity and voltage needed, as long as you don't exceed whatever the total wh limit there is for carryon or shipping or whatever.

Thanks for your Detailed response
I think Luna has beefed up with a BBSHD to handle 52 V is my understanding

if I’m gonna go to the LiGo way I think I will look into that information that you posted

 

[amberwolf]

I think Luna has beefed up with a BBSHD to handle 52 V is my understanding

not that it matters, but regardles of what luna says or has on their webpages, i doubt luna has actualy done anything with them; just putting their name on one already available. see other bbshd threads about that, and ohter threads about luna and their claims.

 

[john61ct]

Just make a nice looking end product with official looking label, and truthful.

Do not series unlike sub-packs.

Consider a 72V drivetrain then can use the ligo's

 

[jpacadd]

Thanks for your Detailed response
I think Luna has beefed up with a BBSHD to handle 52 V is my understanding

if I’m gonna go to the LiGo way I think I will look into that information that you posted

No idea on plane friendly, but I'm running a 52V pack on stock bafang controller, though had to flash the firmware with Penoffs interface, or whatever his name is. Prior to flash it was giving overvolt error, but flash fixed it.

Forgive if you're already aware, but luna has two on-BBSHD controllers, standard and ludicrous, though you have to by a complete bike to get ludicrous version, as I understand it. I think they may be either getting incomplete controller builds from bafang and upgrading them for ludicrous, or maybe a custom private label build from bafang to get the higher power, not sure. Either way I want the ludicrous but not going to buy a complete bike when I'd rather build my own. I may pick up another stock controller and do the shunt mod, supposed to work.

Sorry this doesn't help you with your battery question, but just my understanding of the controller max power.

 

[silentguy]

Just make a nice looking end product with official looking label, and truthful.

Do not series unlike sub-packs.

Consider a 72V drivetrain then can use the ligo's

I thought about making my own pack and label but without some official company designation I wonder if that would pass TSA.
I don’t want to take the chance.

What I decided is I’m gonna use two Ryobi tool batteries 18v 4ah In parallel and two 36v 4.4 Ah hoverboard batteries in parallel , and then put them in series. This will give me about About 8Ah and 58-60v
I know my Bafang handles 58.8 v

I may get LiGo, but I’ll try out the hover board Batteries first because I know that these work and I’ve used them in other bikes.

 

[john61ct]

Again, putting dissimilar packs in series really is not a good idea.

Especially using these chemistries so likely to run hot - boom bad!

I suppose a custom BMS type gadget could be wired to isolate sub-packs based on overtemp.

But a lot of trouble to go to when a custom pack will be better anyway for not just safety but performance.

_____
The TSA only allowing a certain list of products through is 99.99% sure not a thing, totally impractical.

Look at the label, if says under 100Wh, then it passes.

Otherwise I bet they just eyeball the physical size, or at most weigh it.

 

[silentguy]

LiGo battery packs seem to get through the airport security
So maybe ebikes.ca can make some 12volt Ligos of the same chemistry as the 36 volt LiGos.
Or make 18 volt LiGos please.

I can just buy more Ryobi 18v 4Ah tool batts as those
Can combine in series to make 36 volt packs, and then
54 volt packs.

 

[john61ct]

Yes 18V 5Ah would be a good basis.

Note there is no defined limit on # of packs either, arbitrary up to the Paul Blarts

 

[silentguy]

Yes for under 100Wh people have been able to get 5 of the LiGo packs through.

So I get your warning about mixing different batt chemistries in series , what about mixing in parallel. ?

I’ll prob stick with one kind of pack like the Ryobi 18volts though

 

[john61ct]

I’ll prob stick with one kind of pack like the Ryobi 18volts though

That is best.

> So I get your warning about mixing different batt chemistries in series , what about mixing in parallel?

If the **chemistries** are different, really not a good idea in any case.

Voltage vs SoC mapping needs to line up.

So not unsafe per se but very stressful on the weak links, reduced lifespan overall.

The only things that could vary in parallel without hurting functionality too much are

SoH%, wear / aging
Ah capacity

but then really should not parallel your strings, is a basic design principle anyway, resistance always varies, current will never flow evenly, so wear will always be faster.

Best is all the same cells, same batch from the factory, and even then tested to match well, ideally buy 500 to get the 50 best matching then sell the rest on.

Yes extreme just making the point.

Protective electronics can compensate, but more difficult to design with modular sub-packs

> Yes for under 100Wh people have been able to get 5 of the LiGo packs through.

And sometimes 20

 

[silentguy]

Thanks again for detailed response.

I will stick to the same packs and cells.

I don’t want any butt fires.

I may make my own packs and put a label on them , but that would probably after trying the Ryobis

 

[silentguy]

Update.
I bought a tsdz2 motor and upgraded it with open source fw.
I ended up using 6 Ryobi one plus , 18v 4ah batteries
I made a 36V 12Ah pack , also can make 60v 8Ah pack
The open source fw tsdz2 can run both of these

They are 72Wh each and were on sale at Home Depot for 80$ for 2. $40 each

I connected in series and parallel using 3D printed end caps and Ryobi contacts and xt60 connectors
I had to make these connectors myself.
I bought the 3D printed end caps on Etsy , the Ryobi contacts from a electrical supply web site , and the xt60 series and parallel connectors from Amazon

4 of the batteries fit into a triangle pack like Tetris blocks. 2 batteries fit into the top tube bag.

Now I can air travel with the batteries as they are under 100wh.

 

[silentguy]

A picture of my dual suspension mountain bike in a regulation size case so itwill only cost me a regular baggage fee $20-30 not a $100 oversized Fee.
Weight of case and bike is 49.5 lbs which is also under the limit.

 

[spinningmagnets]

The BBS02 was designed when 14S / 52V battery packs were not common. They had 36V and 48V variants, but the common capacitors with the most reasonable amount of efficiency were at a cap of 63V. Once this was determined, several retailers began selling BBS02's with a 52V battery pack, under the claim that the higher the volts you use, the fewer heat-producing amps you might need. Of course if the chosen gearing is wrong, any mid-drive can still be overheated.

The BBSHD was designed based on lessons learned on the BBS02, and because they wanted a higher-powered drive for off-roaders, which had been a frequent request at the time. The stock BBSHD also has 63V capacitors, and a 14S pack that is fully charged to 4.2V per cell is at 58.8V, and I have never heard of a 14S pack voltage causing problems with a BBS02/BBSHD.

The EGO brand "56V" cordless tool batteries are actually 14S (58.8V when fully charged). If the nominal voltage is close to 52V during shipping, their 2.0Ah packs are 104-WH

 

[silentguy]

I have both a BbsHD and the tsdz2.

The issue for air travel was 100wh packs or less
There’s no limit to these.

I’ll also take two 158 wh 36volt packs as those are permitted for air travel .

 

[john61ct]

Anyone have links explaining these variations on the 100Wh rule?

 

[silentguy]

https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/whatcanibring/items/lithium-batteries-more-100-watt-hours

https://www.tsa.gov/blog/2018/08/07/top-five-items-people-ask-about-razors-batteries-makeup-shampoo-deodorant

https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/packsafe/more_info/?hazmat=7

Carry on bags only for lithium batteries

It is up to the airline though , so Different airlines have different policies and they could refuse you even if your batteries are within the rules

So it’s best to check with your airline first before you try

 

[john61ct]

Thanks.

Too bad these are ultimately left to the arbitrary discretion of the TSA staffers, too much uncertainty!

I guess need to only buy fully refundable tickets, or have a friend stand by to take them off you and forward via DHL?

 

[silentguy]

I think strategy is to have the TSA documents printed out to show to the TSA staff if needed
Also check airlines website or call their customer service to confirm their li ion battery policies.

Have a prepaid box ready to mail back to yourself if they refuse you even after all this.
Some people have gotten their friends to come get the batts.

I think with 99 wh or less batteries the risk of being refused is much less.

People using the LiGo batts have gotten quite a few on to airplanes. Those are 98 Wh.

 

[markz]

Thats what I thought of doing when I want to travel with an ebike. The battery was the hurdle though.
How did you connect your Ryobi's? 3D printer?

.