CroMotor - Dyno Proven Efficiency Data

[methods]

A member pointed out that I should probably clarify some of the Dyno data above... It should be noted that 10hp at the wheel is an absurd amount of power for a 100lb vehicle and just because I arbitrarily was shooting for 15hp it in no way should be construed as 10hp not being "enough". Dude... 10hp under your ass in a 20" tire at 20mph is gobs of power so if you are just planning your system don't think that you need to try and reach these ridiculous numbers. The only reason I am pushing so hard is to test my controller - and that is really just to make sure that it has enough margin to survive anything a CroRider could throw at it.

Being the guy that I am - I always turn it up to 11
You should understand that if you emulate me you will do nothing but break parts, smoke motors, blow controllers, and if you are lucky - rub some of the skin off of your bony ass. If you have the time and the cash - do it. Just dont come back crying when your toys are broke

A prudent guy would run something like 80A on this CroMotor. Even with that in a 20" wheel you can overheat the motor in just a few minutes. It is always important to understand the difference between what a motor can handle Burst and what it can handle continuous... as you saw in the Dyno run loading a motor down to 50% efficiency and pumping 14KW into it results in very fast overheating. 7KW is an absurd amount of power and I dare you to try and simulate it by hooking a resistor up to the mains and trying to hold it

End of Public Service Announcement

-methods

 

[hillzofvalp]

I'm going to be running this motor on a 150-180lb vehicle with a 200lb rider, so I care what its limits are (especially the original axle!!!!). I'm hoping I can conquer thermal issues at 14, 15kW bursts with water cooling. I was thinking more along the lines of 200-250 phase amps... (in 21.5-23" wheel)

 

[liveforphysics]

I'm going to be running this motor on a 150-180lb vehicle

That is going to make a terrible vehicle IMHO.

Why on earth would you not want a proper scooter hub? JohninCR's hub has an axle sized for a motorcycle, and it's like 2 cro-motors in one hub.

The advantage of the cromotor is in being one of the biggest (if not the biggest) hubmotor that bolts into a bicycle frame and lets you attach a freewheel to pedal it. If you don't need that function, there are much bigger choices for motorcycle/scooter hubs.

 

[methods]

I would agree - there are dozens of cheap scooter motors out there. The only thing special about this one is that it lines up nicely in a bike frame.

-methods

 

[Doctorbass]

Being the guy that I am - I always turn it up to 11
You should understand that if you emulate me you will do nothing but break parts, smoke motors, blow controllers, and if you are lucky - rub some of the skin off of your bony ass. If you have the time and the cash - do it. Just dont come back crying when your toys are broke

-methods

Methods.. It depend on alot of things!.. remember that you sold me your Kelly 220A 120V... When you had it you just burned our 5305.. Oh i mean ROASTED

But since i'm using a BBQ thermometer i never had any problem with the 5303 on 24", the 5305 on 20" and the 5403 in 24"... the max CONTINUOUS stable power i got was 12kW in the controller at 113km/h and temp was not raising.. it was stable at 120 celsius... but at that speed wind is important and the motor rotate so fast that it is right in the peak efficiency :wink:

I got 294A burst with the 5305 at 125Vdc with that kelly... Yeah.. that Kelly is BRUTAL !

I guess these 24 fets too!

i'm lazy to finish my watercooled 36 fets now since the kelly offer me so high power without blowing like the 18 fets did!

Yes.. my 113kmh was acheived with the kelly.

Doc

 

[methods]

Glad you had fun with it.
Wait... I thought I was emulating you???

I am uploading the other dyno pull videos now. Might be something worth spanking it to in there - not sure.

-methods

 

[methods]

I just looked through all the videos... there are some good runs in there. Definitely some good data for folks to get an idea of what they are going to see.

2hp run
4hp run
7hp run
9hp run
Luke running around with his shirt off and a salami in his hands.

It was a good night.
Uploading....

-methods

 

[methods]

CroSmoker Dyno Videos

10hp to 2hp sweep
[youtube]1Ori-OBUMmg[/youtube]

10hp to 3hp run
[youtube]SNeZvyovgTs[/youtube]

10hp to 5hp rip
[youtube]4nhgZeBcgRo[/youtube]

7hp continuous run
[youtube]giw0sW_xCUg[/youtube]

10hp continuous run (original post video)
[youtube]dAj_CM8aoWI[/youtube]

methods clowning on Lukes motor blowing fetish
[youtube]3RZySSdM6qQ[/youtube]

-methods

 

[Arlo1]

You guys realy need to point out the torque. WHen you have a stage or 2 of reduction you can use hi HP and gear it down to get the torque but with a hub motor you are stuck with the torque you have and any hub with over 100ft/lbs is fast!

 

[methods]

I am pretty certain we can break 200 ft/lbs off the line.

Matthew has his going now too - so hopefully he can break some teeth when his handlebar flies up and pops him in the mouth

-methods

 

[amberwolf]

"...only 6kw..." You know if I tried to keep CrazyBike2's little 9C continously at even the measly 4.5KW it gets as a peak during acceleration, it'd probably catch fire in under a minute. Probably under 30 seconds. And that's assuming the wires to it didn't just melt right off first. :lol: (cuz they always smell like they're about to)

Someday I'd like to stick CB2 on that dyno...wish I could do it with it's original powerchair drivetrain, then the little Fusin front I stuck on it, then the front 9C stock, then the slightly modified front-to-rear 9C it has now with the bigger controller you sent me, and then the future powerchair-BLDC-chaindrive I hope to complete before I decay too much further.

 

[bigmoose]

Methods, great thread!! Great results! I love Luke: "Just one more time..."

Glad the positioning of the caps worked out. Great tip on board thermal/flex effects popping them. On the "magic caps" if you want to buy a 1000 of them let me know and I'll split it with you. Now for the oil cooling, as we have mentioned before use Dextron III. These other guys keep looking at weird fluids, and Dextron III already is thin, has anti foam agens, anti oxidant agents, and is pretty well optimized for heat transfer use at the temperatures we encounter. For continuous higher power you are going to need to machine up a new axle that is going to look like automatic transmission parts, to get the oil in and out for a pumped loop. It will need a scavenge pickup towards the "bottom" of the motor. Don't think that part can be ghetto rigged, but you always amaze me with a simple, effective solution.

Again, congrats on the great results!

 

[methods]

I was thinking that I would fill mine with half a can of Monster drink......

-methods

 

[SweKen]

Doesn't work. Redbull will do the trick!

 

[Doctorbass]

Hey Method, Just to wake up a lttle bit this thread and remove some dust on it :lol: .... I have tested on a mopped dyno my old X5 5302 and the Adaptto Max-E controller and we got 10.2hp at the wheel for 10.2kW input.. curiously this is close to 0.746% efficiency and the peak power was at 103km/h

The max power was limited by the battery voltage but i could have obtained better output power! in fact the BEMF could have been lowered to continu pushing power above 103kmh

The Max-E have the OVS feature to play with field weakening and it was just set to Zero ( no timing advance).

it was set to 338A phase and 130A batt current to 86V 22s NMC Farasis

At the begining of the graph i was not full throttle i was affrais to blow the controller so i waited until i reach about 30kmh before to WOT

Doc

 

[steveo]

its good to see real data...

im gonna be looking at efficiency differently for now on..i think its crutal aspect to ensure max efficent power

i should send you one of my 24 fet infinion controller to see how it hold up on the dyno.. and thr numbers difference

Hey Method, Just to wake up a lttle bit this thread and remove some dust on it :lol: .... I have tested on a mopped dyno my old X5 5302 and the Adaptto Max-E controller and we got 10.2hp at the wheel for 10.2kW input.. curiously this is close to 0.746% efficiency and the peak power was at 103km/h

The max power was limited by the battery voltage but i could have obtained better output power! in fact the BEMF could have been lowered to continu pushing power above 103kmh

The Max-E have the OVS feature to play with field weakening and it was just set to Zero ( no timing advance).

it was set to 338A phase and 130A batt current to 86V 22s NMC Farasis

At the begining of the graph i was not full throttle i was affrais to blow the controller so i waited until i reach about 30kmh before to WOT

Doc

 

[methods]

Ok - back from the dead.

This is as good of a place to start as any.... a...nnnn...ddd the recap -> going backwards in time.



I am available to start a project with you right here, right now, today. $60/hr
Linkedin
Facebook

MSEE Stanford Engineering
BSEET DeVry Electronics (4.0 GPA)
Decade at the National Labs
5+ years roaming the hood
I have a few different resume's...

Worked at Tesla for a while (wow... I want one. Super-awesome-lego-car. Went to a dealership yesterday looking for the T-Handle.)
Worked at Zero for a while (With Luke and Nate dick swinging... good work was impeded... still trying to get back in... like 40 projects in the queue... wtf?)
Worked at Methods Technology for a while (I have 1 roll of caps to ship, 1 shaving bag going to Oregon, 1 50% refund, and 3 half finished side-projects.)




That brings us back to the present.

My boy is almost 3 years old. First time he rode a wave was at Pleasure Point, CA at age 9mo at low tide on a small day with a boogie board.
My wife is a teacher looking to start a school. MS Physics. Redefine Home School Phoolz...
My friends are members of the Electric Revolution... scattered across the planet
My current hobby is night surfing. I mean that in the most literal way.
My EV's are all broken, sold, etc. I drive an extremely capable Jeep, a reliable Toyota, and I am looking to convert the 235 straight six in my 1958 Apache.

Recall... that the Banksters stole the home we sunk about $180k into. My family and I still live in an abandoned trailer in the woods that we re-purposed using only Craigs List sourced materials. It came out damn nice considering that when we started there were holes in the floor bigger than a toilet... mold on the walls that spoke 3 languages... rats, junk, and not a single working appliance of any kind. (pics )

I now recreate by cliff diving, ocean cliff climbing, night surfing, day surfing (with Captain Agro), and for the past year or two I have gone to great lengths to reach out to every member of my local community from the ground up. I have developed relationships with key community stakeholders - homeless, activists, shop owners, special interest groups, random-folk, rich folk, you name it. I have been attempting to participate in the local leadership scene but... as you can imagine... that's a rigged stage. Not super interested in falling through any more trap doors thanks.

I did some investigative journalism

* One was on Magic Mountain in San Jose, waste management in rural areas, and hairless monkeys who think trash disappears.
* One was on an incredibly vibrant local group who have taken on "the system" in the most head-on way I have ever seen.
* One was on police brutality in Alameda county
* One was on privacy... "Living with an Android thru an apple understanding" (hard hitter... watch out...)
* And... some other stuff.. Like living without TV, Internet, Cell, & sometimes even Electricity, Water, and Heat... in 2014

Some people have come and gone.
Old folk mostly. I have some fond memories to share of those who built the world we live in now

I had a few run-in's with folks who like to try and intimidate.

hehehe... oh yea...
I finally got my sauna tub installed inside !!!

yep
Oh... here is one for you: CONTENT

Please be careful with your content. Do not assume that Facebook is a good keeper of your memories. Places like Gmail, Youtube, Facebook, ... this is TEMPORARY PARKING for your images and movies. A good example are the videos that were linked to this post. That content is no longer in existence. Please consider this while you interact on this forum. Upload your content directly to our server whenever possible to maintain the integrity of our database. Linking pictures, videos, articles, etc... and embedding them... does nothing but riddle our fort with holes in the time domain. I am guilty of this. My personal domain, professional domain, and my server is down so all associated content is no longer live-linked.

K - the plan as of right this moment

Immediate
Short Term
Long Term

Immediate
I have less than a hundred bucks to my name so gainful employment is #1

Short Term
I have some unfinished business to attend to in my spare time

Long Term
We are at a critical point. The reaction we call the "Electric Revolution" is in full run-away exothermic happy place. Perfect. This is where we want to be to turn the tide. BUT.
BUT BUT frocking BUT
Everyone needs to stay focused on the fundamentals:

* Make sure EV's are smart safe - not stupid safe (think E-Stop... not Lawyer stop)

I would like to take a moment to think about how critically important it is to have redundant safety systems in EV's ( True Oh-Shit Switches). On an equally loud level I want to remind each and every one of you that trying to "come up" by financially attacking this growing EV movement equals fail. nuf said.

If anyone has a safety concern regarding anything that I am a subject matter expert on you can find me at a beach in Santa Cruz California. If you want to talk to me... we do it in the ocean. If its an interview... tell me so. If you are looking to sue or stir the shit pot, pound sand. If you cant find me - try my email... or 99 bottles of beer on the wall.... I try to stop by there a few times a week. I am not affiliated with any major EV company. I am not on the payroll of any EV company. I do not get special treatment or kickbacks. I am not a recruiter (except for the National Labs).

I am but a humble servant of the people.

-methods

P.S. HA HA -> How do you like that for a meat and coffee fueled morning ramble? Just think of how fast I can belt out facts if the shit hits the fan. Fast type'er yo.

Do not frock with us.

 

[methods]

Resume attached.

Don't confuse my professional life with my social life... k
Endless-Sphere is the geeks version of a community watering hole. Anything goes here... as.. a society that does not have an outlet for "anything goes" is LAME.

Of course... this means that we often tilt farther than would be appropriate in a professional environment. We tolerate (and ignore) a lot of shit-talking on this board. Make sure you thank the active moderators for their hard work keeping this a safe (but real) place.




Now...
I am on the prowl for a big juicy bone to gnaw on. Give me something to fix quick... else I am going to have to buy something, break it, then get paid to fix it. 8)


-methods

 

[amberwolf]

got lots to fix here, ready for a road trip? :lol:

but all i can offer is a spare room, maybe some homemade chili or stew, plenty of dog slobber and fur (some still attached to it's sources), and my sometimes irascible company when i'm not wearying myself at the dayjob.

 

[methods]

I was told by a reliable source that you are a gentleman and a scholar. I will of course arrange a visit in the near future.

Now... where is my highway capable $30k EV???

Hrm... not here yet.
Ohhhh kaaay
That's a long ebike ride and I cant afford the gas.

So long as you dont take me on a ride like Justin did... (OMFG )
The man worked me like a slave, fed me rusty bolts, then tried to kill me in the rain in traffic.

-methods

 

[liveforphysics]

Now... where is my highway capable $30k EV???

Hrm... not here yet.
Ohhhh kaaay
That's a long ebike ride and I cant afford the gas.

You are welcome to take my Rav4 EV. I added 30kWh of NMC cells to it and kept it's stock NiMH pack, so even running its climate control system (which works really surprisingly well, all heat-pump based), it's still a real >100miles/charge vehicle at regular highway speeds. I setup it's charging so it works from 110vac, all the way up to whatever 220vac source you can find, j1772, NEMA 14-50 etc.

I will even replace the corded front tires before your trip. (It remarkably came with 4 new tires for it)

I am into the ride less than $400 total now, with the bulk of that being insurance/taxes.

 

[Doctorbass]

You are welcome to take my Rav4 EV. I added 30kWh of NMC cells to it and kept it's stock NiMH pack, so even running its climate control system (which works really surprisingly well, all heat-pump based), it's still a real >100miles/charge vehicle at regular highway speeds. I setup it's charging so it works from 110vac, all the way up to whatever 220vac source you can find, j1772, NEMA 14-50 etc.

I will even replace the corded front tires before your trip. (It remarkably came with 4 new tires for it)

I am into the ride less than $400 total now, with the bulk of that being insurance/taxes.

Luke you are awesome man!

Is it a recent project ? I mean I did not saw it in your parking in may?

I am curious to see how you linked NMC lithium to the NiMh !.. paralleled with mosfet ideal diodes in serie?? one pack charge the other?

Doc

 

[Alan B]

Welcome back!

Looking forward to your products and ventures.

 

[liveforphysics]

Is it a recent project ? I mean I did not saw it in your parking in may?

I paralleled them just through a big contactor. When they charge, they charge as separate isolated packs. The NiMH is only charged from it's own charger, the Lithium can be charged by either, but only safe to finish charging on its CC/CV supplies because the NiMH doesn't find the -dV/dT it's looking for to terminate. The NiMH is so saggy, in practice it seems to work out OK so far.

I also hacked the motor controller with Ibatt and Iphase sensor bypasses. It's like the larger scale equal of soldering the shunt for more current. lol

 

[Arlo1]

Doug and I did that on his Prius on the weekend we could only mod the star/regen part of the inverter for now. starts so fast