Descendence bikes open-source electric bike frame

Nice design. I don't get the dimensions from your drawing, but do you know that the length of 40152 is 165mm without screws? 150mm is only the blue middle section. Altogether cca. 185mm with screws, washers, connection plates and 2mm insulator plates at both ends.
 
Im no pro but the dropouts look a little weak for such a heavy bike and wanted to ask as the last post did if you have left enough space for all the battery parts. the bms takes a lot and if you have those cell holder plastic things they space out the batteries too.
 
for the cavity i allowed 125mm width internal to allow 3 of them side bu side, and a allowed 10mm betwen them at 165mm length.

the bms are gonna be a bit trickier but there is quite a lot of room between the top tubes- as long as the BMS are no wider than 125mm they should fit in ok. its more that it'll be a prick to work out how to make the box to the dimensions.

it wouldnt be hard to make the box out to about 150mm internal for the lipo boys
 
trying to get this battery sorted, the fella recommended i get these-
http://ev-power.com.au/webstore/index.php/ev-power-bms/bms-cell-modules-1/lfp-voltage-balance-board.html

thy're not really expensive so im not worries about the cost of 22 of them, but they might add to the height of the cells a fair bit. i dont really know enough about lifepo4 batteries to know wether they're actually necessary. i suppose tho they'll replace the busbars so probably wont add the number of pats required.

also i need to find a 22s monitor that i can use, anyone got any recommendations?
 
I don't know what electronics package you were considering, but the Adaptto has everything you need in one kit. It's a little techy, but the optional BMS is an integrated part of the system. The kits are a little difficult to get a hold of, but IMO it's worth the hassle and wait.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190

These setups will accommodate any cell chemistry and any configuration up to 28S or about 92V operating, 100V max off the charger, whichever comes first. So 22S of Headways at 74.8V would work fine. Your charge voltage is 3.65V per cell, so that would be 80.3V, still OK.

Where are the controller etc going to be mounted? Another design consideration I would bring up is weather protection. Even though this may be a fair weather vehicle, some consideration needs to be given to protection from water ingress., and/or condensation. The enclosure for the batteries and controller should at least be rain tight and drip proof. The electronics/ battery assemblies misbehave when exposed to any sort of moisture, and component replacement gets expensive and irritating.
 
Hugechainring said:
I don't know what electronics package you were considering, but the Adaptto has everything you need in one kit. It's a little techy, but the optional BMS is an integrated part of the system. The kits are a little difficult to get a hold of, but IMO it's worth the hassle and wait.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190

These setups will accommodate any cell chemistry and any configuration up to 28S or about 92V operating, 100V max off the charger, whichever comes first. So 22S of Headways at 74.8V would work fine. Your charge voltage is 3.65V per cell, so that would be 80.3V, still OK.

Where are the controller etc going to be mounted? Another design consideration I would bring up is weather protection. Even though this may be a fair weather vehicle, some consideration needs to be given to protection from water ingress., and/or condensation. The enclosure for the batteries and controller should at least be rain tight and drip proof. The electronics/ battery assemblies misbehave when exposed to any sort of moisture, and component replacement gets expensive and irritating.
Click to expand...

fook man reading all the info in that thread has got me really confused...it somehow replaces the battery charger?? but with a bunch of optional additions and whatnot. god damn this shit is a bit complicated, i aint an electrical engineer, just a mechanical pretengineer ;)

i hit em up with a PM anyway as to the availability/dims of a max-E with BMS for 22s.

i was planning on putting the controller in the same spot as a raptor, in front of the battery case in the lower edge. im waiting on the dims of it tho before i go too far modelling that one up. i was considering getting some funky looking ABS plastic guards 3d printed for it to make it look a bit flasher and less fabricated. what you recon?

other option is just lasercut and bend a steel plate one; probably a fair bit cheaper but wont look as dardy.
 
There's certainly a lot to learn. What starts as a linear group of steps quickly becomes pretty iterative.

What price point are you trying to hit for the open source frame?
 
fook man reading all the info in that thread has got me really confused...it somehow replaces the battery charger?? but with a bunch of optional additions and whatnot. god damn this shit is a bit complicated, i aint an electrical engineer, just a mechanical pretengineer ;)

i hit em up with a PM anyway as to the availability/dims of a max-E with BMS for 22s.

i was planning on putting the controller in the same spot as a raptor, in front of the battery case in the lower edge. im waiting on the dims of it tho before i go too far modelling that one up. i was considering getting some funky looking ABS plastic guards 3d printed for it to make it look a bit flasher and less fabricated. what you recon?

other option is just lasercut and bend a steel plate one; probably a fair bit cheaper but wont look as dardy
Click to expand...

Yeah, Adaptto doesn't really monitor their PMs here consistently. If you are serious about the Adaptto, PM me and I'll walk you through the sales process. It's too much to go into here, and off topic.

It is definitely a learning process with the electronics. There is some stuff out there that is somewhat plug and play, but all the higher end gear needs to be tuned (programmed), so you need to hone your PC skills, and reacquaint yourself with a soldering iron.

If you want high power, zombiess is cooking up a customized Sabvoton controller that he wants to mate up with the Cromotor. He could probably hook you up with a package that won't require much tweaking, but it will be a little heavy on your wallet. As far as batteries go, you might check into EM3EV. Their stuff is not cheap, but it's a complete battery solution, BMS is built in, and they do custom stuff. It might be helpful to design around a commercially available pack format if this is to be an open source DIY type deal, so more people can get in on the fun without running into the same roadblocks you are.

I'd go for sheet metal bash guard. Plastic? snappy-spappy.
 
i totally used to think of plastic as snappy too, until i got a bit more experience with it. there is so may different grades, you can make anything plastic almost indestructible as long as you use the correct material and design it correctly. the combo of lite weight, certain amount of flexibility, the fact that you can mold/print it into weird shapes and the fact that it doesn't permanently deform like steel or ali does really means it make sense for a lot of applications (at least in my head). polypropylene is seriously tough shit.

im currently looking at this company for advice/making me a BMS to suit the 44 cells- http://ev-power.com.au/webstore/index.php/lithium-battery-monitor-pcb-4-12-cells.html using two of these or something like it. they're local which makes a massive difference to me- its a lot easier getting shit done if you can go somewhere and talk to someone face to face.
 
I 3d print ABS, as it works for car bumpers. Tough = strong + ductile.
Nylon is even tougher.

The price point was a serious trap-free question by the way. As someone who already customises frames, I have a hard time extracting any margin out of people who are used to breaking down things ad finitum. Which is ok as I get a hobby out of it and get a kick out of people riding away on something different.

The price points of stealth, raptor, phasor and unbranded mods all seem to mean different things to different people. Given this is being put out there as open source it does suggest a low margin and DIY option. Thoughts?
 
Samd said:
I 3d print ABS, as it works for car bumpers. Tough = strong + ductile.
Nylon is even tougher.

The price point was a serious trap-free question by the way. As someone who already customises frames, I have a hard time extracting any margin out of people who are used to breaking down things ad finitum. Which is ok as I get a hobby out of it and get a kick out of people riding away on something different.

The price points of stealth, raptor, phasor and unbranded mods all seem to mean different things to different people. Given this is being put out there as open source it does suggest a low margin and DIY option. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

well realistically if someone is wanting to fabricate their own frame from scratch from finished CADS that ill upload to Grabcad and this forum and they wanted to save some cash, i would expect them to he handy enough to be able to make a bash guard themselves from some 2mm steel plate...if they cant do that bit they really arnt gonna be able to fabricate the frame itself. or they could just get one printed themselves to their own design or get me to make them a complete bike along with guard, all the options!

i was more imagining the "open source" thing as a project that anyone of you nice chaps has the chance to give their input into towards the finished product, and it is completely transparent to everyone where all the separate parts are coming from (batteries, controller etc) so that anyone can have an easy way of creating a nice off-road play bike. i certainly wish that option existed for me! thats why im doing this really.

its quite easy for someone who has made a few of their own bikes as to all the choices for all the components depending on what parts they like, but for someone like myself who has never made one themselves but still want a Stealth type bike but dont have the experience to assemble all the bits nor wants to shell out $10 000 for one complete, this is gonna provide that option. but realistically this is just gonna be a Raptor type product if it was to be fabricated by me; a bare frame to be kitted out by the buyer.

so you say you print plastic parts eh? would you be interested in making some parts for this project?
 
There is so may different grades, you can make anything plastic almost indestructible as long as you use the correct material and design it correctly. the combo of lite weight, certain amount of flexibility, the fact that you can mold/print it into weird shapes and the fact that it doesn't permanently deform like steel or ali does really means it make sense for a lot of applications (at least in my head). polypropylene is seriously tough shit.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. If you have the resources (vendors) available to do the work with high performance materials, especially the 3D printing capability, by all means, head on. I'd really like to see more of that become available to builders/ fabricators here on ES.
 
Samd said:
There's certainly a lot to learn. What starts as a linear group of steps quickly becomes pretty iterative.

What price point are you trying to hit for the open source frame?
Click to expand...

haha i didnt even see this post sorry mate, i see what you meant now with the price-point trap-free comment (had me a little confused at first).

to be honest i really have no idea at the moment, when i do a project like this the end product is usually so wildly different from the initial idea there isnt really a way to predict it.

but seriously, thats probably a good thing to put out there to everyone. what do you lot consider a realistic price for a finished bare frame like this? if i were to judge it by the custom push bike market, then i would expect anywhere from about $1500 to $2500 would be reasonable for a dually frame like this, given it could be made to any geometry/wheel choice.

i suppose it'd want to be on a par with a raptor, a greyborg or any of them other options currently available, but hopefully address some of the issues people have with them.
 
Hugechainring said:
There is so may different grades, you can make anything plastic almost indestructible as long as you use the correct material and design it correctly. the combo of lite weight, certain amount of flexibility, the fact that you can mold/print it into weird shapes and the fact that it doesn't permanently deform like steel or ali does really means it make sense for a lot of applications (at least in my head). polypropylene is seriously tough shit.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. If you have the resources (vendors) available to do the work with high performance materials, especially the 3D printing capability, by all means, head on. I'd really like to see more of that become available to builders/ fabricators here on ES.
Click to expand...

too easy mate- http://www.advancedmanufacturing.com.au/ams_quote/

upload 3d file, get instant quote. it really is that easy! i think there is many companies like this now, but this is just the one that im currently talking to.
 
farkin woohoo, i just ordered the cells! 44 of the headway 40152's and balancers, and two BMS boards, from EV power australia. now shit just got real...

was about $1750AU picked up, be about $80 extra for delivery. for a 72+v, 30ah battery easily capable of 5c continuous, thats pretty awesome i recon.

it'd be a few hundred dollars cheaper, and about %30 smaller, if you got 44 of the 38120 cells from tim at evworks.com.au, but itd be 20ah. given my distance i needed to go i decided i had to go the larger cells. i figure most peeps would probably want the 20ah, and Tim's a pretty helpful guy.
 
ok so i really want to know- am i being a nob by making this thing for LiFePO4's? i really dont like the concept of building a lipo battery myself without any experience, but if i had it built by someone on here or ex-battery or something like that, complete with balancers and whatever else, im sure it'd mitigate the risk's considerably.

its just that they're so much smaller than the LFE's...im really second-guessing myself now :?
 
If you get that battery all working, you ll love how easy it is to just plug in as you said and walk away.

I haven't met anyone using lipo with a bms.

small scale lipo I found very easy and was happy to do, but going up in voltage and AH it quickly turns into a huge mess of wires to deal with every time you charge, unless you go riskier and bulk
 
yep you gotta admit the being able to walk away form it is a big one. i just got a bit of a quiote from Ping too, it'd be considerable smaller than the 40's if i got two of his 36v/30ah cells and series'ed them, and only a couple hundred $$ more which is pretty ok given that i would not actually have to do anything at all except put them in series.
 
Easy on the pings. Bad match for amps versus a raptor style hummer bike.

There's ways around not having a lipo bms.

Happy to help on the 3d for sure.
 
actually i ordered them, but havnt paid for them. basically i pissed someone off a bit but they were in stock anyway so they'll calm down. i may still go them yet, i just need to be %100 before i drop that kinda cash! there is nothing worse than getting half way thru a build of any bike and realising that you need to start again
 
Having run with a lipo pack assembled from hobbyking bricks for 8 months or so of daily use, they really aren't very scary. My new build is 18650 based high power lipo cells which I'll be putting together myself. The energy density is hard to beat. Check out Allex's recent post on modifying his bomber, he went from the stock life battery to 18650 based lipo and literally doubled watt hours and dramatically improved power delivery in the same physical space, weight only went up ~1kg.

I charge unattended with my Adaptto setup without worrying. BMS is monitoring each cell while charging.

His sized pack (loads more energy than your headways) is around $1300aud shipped for the cells. Assembly into a usable pack obviously takes a bit of work but it's not rocket science.
 
Ohbse said:
Having run with a lipo pack assembled from hobbyking bricks for 8 months or so of daily use, they really aren't very scary. My new build is 18650 based high power lipo cells which I'll be putting together myself. The energy density is hard to beat. Check out Allex's recent post on modifying his bomber, he went from the stock life battery to 18650 based lipo and literally doubled watt hours and dramatically improved power delivery in the same physical space, weight only went up ~1kg.

I charge unattended with my Adaptto setup without worrying. BMS is monitoring each cell while charging.

His sized pack (loads more energy than your headways) is around $1300aud shipped for the cells. Assembly into a usable pack obviously takes a bit of work but it's not rocket science.
Click to expand...

sounds good. got a little linkylink to allex's thread?

so is there anything else involved in charging your lipos other than plugging them in? iv read all this stuff about having to charge them individually rather than bulk (which apparently absolutely no one actually does), balancing them all the time and shit like that.

do you have your own build thread for your adaptto build? iv PM'd adaptto re. a mini-E+BMS but so far havnt heard anything back from them, but everything iv read tells me they're super busy all the time and not to expect an instant response.
 
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=62650

I don't have a documented build up for my first bike but the second one will be getting its own thread very soon.

You can actually purchase the Adaptto stuff through Allex - I'm confident he will be more responsive than Adaptto directly :) the charging setup is all configurable via the display, you set the charge voltage and current you would like, plug in your power supply (which can be any DC source below total pack voltage) and then it does it's own thing, balancing included if you're running the BMS.

My power supply puts out 1800watt, so I can replenish the 500 or so watt hours for my one way journey in ~15 minutes :)
 
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