Eurobike 2014 thread

endlessly_ending said:
Great impressions, great pictures, thanks.

No problem, a few more coming

I love that frame from Panurge, would make a perfect basis for a Telelever fork.

His frame is a wonderful piece of CNC machining and alternative no-weld frame construction, not what you typically picture when you think of "Italian made" bike frames! You can see some more examples of them here:
http://onionbikes.com/?file=no-welding-system

Also find the dual chain solution almost as good as the before mentioned Speedped design.

The Speedped system is dual belt drives with both motor and pedals going through the Shimano Alphine hub, which is an awesome way to make the best of the ~500-700 watts of that motor system. With the Schumaker drive on Panurge's bike pushing >4kW power levels, a separate motor chain going to the left side of the wheel is the the more sensible option.
 
here are some additional things that caught my eyes on the last day of the show. ( Keep in mind of course that slick and tightly integrated commercial ebikes generally don't catch my eye at all, not that there's anything wrong with them! )

First it was nice to see Heinzmann with a booth, as one of the original hub motor kit suppliers from the 90's, its cool to see that they are still around. Their original high torque (albeit noisy) geared hub motor is still in production and still used by various fleet vehicles, but they now have a more modern direct drive system, the PRA-180
Heinzmann Front Hub.jpg

We got samples of their their 500W model version of this motor a few months ago that are up on the simulator. But what surprised me about their booth is first that they had an Edgerunner as their demo bike, and second that it was outfitted not only with the PRA-180 but also a secondary chain drive cargo system.
Heinzmann Cargo Motor.jpg
It's a rather industrial looking motor+gearbox which drives a left side chain to the rear wheel, with a sprocket/disk assembly attachement on the disk mount of the rear hub
Heinzmann Rear Cog.jpg

The lady at the booth was saying this was still early in the prototype stages, and was intended for getting heavy cargo loads efficiently up to the ~10kph range. I just thought it was cool to see a large manufacturer looking at commercializing this drive topology that we're more used to seeing with DIY builds. Even the pedal torque sensor was custom made idler block to sense the chain tension
Heinzmann Torque Sensor.jpg

I visited the Kappstein booth with some excitement to see and check out what I thought was going to be a two speed retro-direct motor that Miles had previouslylinked here. While they had three hub motors behind a glass case, none of them was operational and the banner over the display advertised them as a 3 speed hub, not a 2 speed device with a direct drive forwards mode. The person I was chatting with wasn't very clear about the details
Kappstein Motors.jpg

The other part of the Kappstein booth that was operational is a 2 speed crankset that has a 1:1 mode and a 1:1.5 overdrive mode, but unlike the Schlumpf which shifts with a spindle button press, or the Patterson which uses a handlebar shifter, this one changes gears with a short quick back pedal motion. It's also by far the most compact geared crank that I've seen, and of course it freewheels. So there are ever more options freewheeling cranksets suitable for high speed mid-drive ebikes.
Dual speed Crank.jpg

Jules did have a small fat-tire bike built up with the chinese 2-speed retro-direct hub from Xiongda. It was really cool to actually experience this auto-shifting in action, even if the motor power is on the low end of the spectrum
Dual Speed Hub Moor.jpg

I mentioned that there were many companies copying Bosch's lead and making proprietary motor crankset systems which require a custom frame interface, and showed the Samsung model in my earlier post. Here is a Yamaha model
Yamaha Drive.jpg

In the central courtyard areas with outdoor booths there were lots of recumbent bikes, tricycles, and cargo vehicles on display and available for test riding. We were happy to see our friends from Radkutsche who hand-build in germany a range of front loading boxbikes as well as very large delta cargo trikes typically used or business delivery. All adequately powered with a single geared front hub motor.
http://www.radkutsche.de/
With Stefan and Sebastien.jpg
View attachment 11

But my real highlight of the last day wasn't anything inside the show, it was an old German fellow we ran into at the supermarket who was riding this DIY stokemonkey style build which uses a small hub motor with flanges machined off it, supported just from a single side on the left chainstay, driving the left crank arm.
View attachment 3

At first glance I saw a bunch of welding around the crank and thought oh, rather than buying an expensive tandem crankset he just welded a chainring flange onto the regular left side crank. But then looking closer I saw that no, there's more to it than this, he actually machined and welded on his own ratchetting freewheel and pawl system so that he can pedal freely without turning the chain and the motor. Crazy
View attachment 4

Sadly, he didn't speak any english and I don't know any german, so I couldn't get any more detail but did my best to provide my full thumbs up of approval :D
 
BionX didn't do well on the DIY maket as far as I have seen.
No wonder. They would have to sell their motors at more reasonable prices without all that proprietary electronics inside (plus more stable axles as well) to become more interesting for any DIYer.

Yeah there is much of a Bosch hype in Germany going on. No wonder as well.
 
justin_le said:
I visited the Kappstein booth with some excitement to see and check out what I thought was going to be a two speed retro-direct motor that Miles had previouslylinked here. While they had three hub motors behind a glass case, none of them was operational and the banner over the display advertised them as a 3 speed hub, not a 2 speed device with a direct drive forwards mode. The person I was chatting with wasn't very clear about the details
:(

Here are the details of the 3 speed hub: http://kappstein.de/en/products/kappstein-motors/ka3s/ It's similar to the BionX - incorporating a 3 speed hub gear for pedal input only.
 
Hello Guys
Has been so fine to visit the show this year, and to meet Justin...It has been also funny that He was riding the first time an Astro Shumaker bike, there in Germany....
Since Justin has yet covered a lot I will add only some impression or other things that I have among the shots....
I will start to share a short ride with the samsung drive. It is quiet good...but it is very noisy. Obviously you should expect full compatibility with SDI Batteries and any Samsung device :wink:
The smartphone provide infos about the torque, the Kcal, general infos and I bet much much more, at least potentially.
Couldn't get any useful technical info from the guys there...
[youtube]1_yKIunikpc[/youtube]
More to comes
 
Good point Big J re the shops. Cdn. co. trying to sell in relatively mature EU market ("firing on all cylinders", or wattEVer an ebike biz does). And closer to home fighting fear and ignorance and vested interests (eg "ma and pa" gas stations. For just one example of the "entrenched").
 
panurge said:
I will start to share a short ride with the samsung drive. It is quiet good...but it is very noisy. Obviously you should expect full compatibility with SDI Batteries and any Samsung device :wink:
The smartphone provide infos about the torque, the Kcal, general infos and I bet much much more, at least potentially.
Couldn't get any useful technical info from the guys there...

More to comes

Great app - Love the G-plot - are they gonna think their ebikes will launch one to the stars?
:)
 
efMX Trials Electric Freeride said:
if anyone sees this emoto in person more pictures and what brand please.. 8)
JJ_00461.jpg

yeess i took a few pictures of this^^ :)
the interest at this bike was not sparsely at the moment when i was there.
What i know is that this bike is a prototype and currently not for sale. The frame was made / designd from Nicolai engineering . The motor can do 15kW continuous and it has a belt dirve (no pedals). Fork, damper, rims etc are all bicycle components. I was told the weight with this components is about 45kg. With moped components about 60kg. Top speed about 90kmh. Regarding electronics the man i was talking with could not tell me anything. I have seen a very similar looking display on another, lower powered ebike. Maybe it is Adaptto? Its only a suspicion..

RCXOs9.jpg


lbKkmT.jpg


3cjCEl.jpg


7fM6mO.jpg


GJXwoy.jpg


Dg0Go1.jpg


l4SVAj.jpg


the other bike with almost similar display case:

it is an s-pedelec (up to 45kmh) and has a pinion gear. the lights look really nice.

h2Jw5T.jpg


lBgdAq.jpg


7mCeb2.jpg


GyNoxE.jpg
 
Hey Justin, that bike you posted is really sick....and I concur, Is the most crazy and interesting electric thing in the fair area!!!

Another short movie of the samsung bike....the guys there was not samsung guys but the distributors/owners of the bike brand that mount it :?:
[youtube]8efwuwiNke8[/youtube]

I've finally located the source of the Taiwanese splined freewheels that appeared last year or so in the trial bike shops (I own one yet) this was one of the main things I was looking for at the fair, the cool is that they are relatively cheep and they would like to make a splined freewheel that has the outer flange with standard 4H 68bcd that they already makes with the standard bsa thread inner....I asked for a 104mm one too :shock:

The prototype seems a lot a refined Adam's design....but his frames are yet selling....would like to know when one will be able to get the Nicolai-XXX motorized- bike....and I would like to see that amount of torque transmitted by a single centertrack belt...
I know rumors about even suntour is developing an electric system, even on a nicolai prototype frame....
 

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the suspension link of a trailer that has even a complete motorized option.
It is german and very well made, i can say.
 
endlessly_ending said:
Ahh.
Possibly Aidoo?

http://www.aidoo-tec.com/meldungen/BikeLogger.html

Yes. that's it...
will wait for quotes....I have also other contact for interesting trailers, that is something that I like.

The Bafang seems good but the main question (reliability) couldn't be judged by a short ride.

The show has been the FAT-Mania fair.....my funnystupid little 20" fat has been really appreciated by the visitors and the exhibitors....No-one of the tire manufacturer has on the lines knob tires for 20" fat....I've bet with the kenda guys that at next eurobike or 2 we will see many more 20" fat and even some more tires for them.
The Puky-lino owner (german brand for kids) was impressed by the bike, "wow a great idea, haven't seen that before"....(their market-research guys did not a proper job).
DSCF3908.JPG

I had a talk with a pair of different guys at Kappstein.
The motor will be mounted in bikes for tests in about 2 or 3 months, the cool for me is that they are not far from Berlin, so, since I'm there frequently, I could remain in touch with them an be ready to go there to touch....

The Xiong-Da Family was there with a bike mounting their 2Speed Motor. They are really good people, they was a bit lost on the big show, though, both physically and commercially....Also Lishui and King meter was present, so all the Manufaturers of the XD kit was there.....I'll post news on the XD threads soon.

What is of interest, I think, for the community, is that the Bafang Crew has tried my XD fat, and they was really curious and pleased about the 2 speed motor (Again, Have they some market research guys?) and after to try it and be around it in 5 or 6 for minutes, finally they bought a 2 speed motor from XD......

Later, Speaking with one of the Bafang team, he bet that next year we will get more Multispeed motors, even from the big chinese manufacturer.
 
panurge said:
The Xiong-Da Family was there with a bike mounting their 2Speed Motor. They are really good people, they was a bit lost on the big show, though, both physically and commercially.
What is of interest, I think, for the community, is that the Bafang Crew has tried my XD fat, and they was really curious and pleased about the 2 speed motor (Again, Have they some market research guys?) and after to try it and be around it in 5 or 6 for minutes, finally they bought a 2 speed motor from XD......

Later, Speaking with one of the Bafang team, he bet that next year we will get more Multispeed motors, even from the big chinese manufacturer.

Well, if Bafang (and others) gets interested in selling two speed hubs - and certainly they now will - XiongDa "family startup" most certainly will get lost - if - they are not only into developing 2-speed hubs, but the most clever business strategy on earth as well.
 
Yes....and even if in some way I'm feeling bad to have maybe accelerated this inevitable trend standing at the bafang booth with that XD-bike and talking about its concept, I know that it would be in any case inevitable.
But since the XD motor is actually working very well, I hope they will put efforts to better develop their actual system, and would be glad even helping them keeping the small positive knowledge gap they actually get with this system.
I would like to persuade the Onion team to use for our e-tourer bike, this motor as stock. A CA option for the autoshift could be another thing that could help, maybe, since they have not GOT the TRUE FINAL controller/display combo yet, I think.
 
Conway E-Bikes Street and Extreme :
"Conway at Eurobike 2014: The extreme e-bike with 2000 watts drive is available in two versions. The road licensed version Street, which can be taken on the roads with a maximum of 45km/h. And then there is the offroad version Extreme, which doesn’t have a speed limitation on offroad tracks.. "
Conway-E-Rider-Street-1-von-10-780x520.jpg

Eurobike-2015-Conway-E-Rider-Extreme-1-von-9-780x519.jpg

Conway-E-Rider-Street-5-von-10-780x519.jpg

Eurobike-2015-Conway-E-Rider-Extreme-6-von-9-780x519.jpg

Conway-E-Rider-Street-8-von-10-780x519.jpg

Eurobike-2015-Conway-E-Rider-Extreme-9-von-9-780x519.jpg

http://www.ebike-mtb.com/en/lifted-up-the-conway-e-bikes-street-and-extreme/
 
panurge said:
I've finally located the source of the Taiwanese splined freewheels that appeared last year or so in the trial bike shops (I own one yet) this was one of the main things I was looking for at the fair, the cool is that they are relatively cheep and they would like to make a splined freewheel that has the outer flange with standard 4H 68bcd that they already makes with the standard bsa thread inner....I asked for a 104mm one too :shock:

The company that makes these freewheel is yuhub I already know them, but didn't realized these freewheels comes from them, or at least that they make them too.
Have Also a sealed bearing unit on the lines. You cannot see the splined version on the website, but they have it.
http://www.yuhub.com.tw/en/products/?method=detail&aid=176
 
LockH said:
... and cycling "Community" chips in. (How to spend $$$ re ebike. Article "Lightweight show off e-bike concept at Eurobike".)
http://road.cc/content/news/128979-lightweight-show-e-bike-concept-eurobike

(Maybe hasn't occurred to some that Uber-light weight not such a factor re the Bettery-Electric bicycle?)
Well, this is a concept bike......
And is an elegant concept and something that any DIYer and/or motor passionate has figured out or dreamed about at least one time....
That said, If you think better....14Kg isn't that light, even if they have 4kg of batteries.... :?:
I'm expecting way more lightweight from them....But, were truly the 100kph on his potential, than 14kg would be impressive.....
If you look close to numbers, a typical bike like this would weight no more than say 7 kilos (it even has not the rear brake assembly and use a single front sprocket)....add 3Kg of LiIons and probably 1 Kg or less for the "stator" stuff on the seattube....than you still have the remaining 3Kg on the outer diameter of a 700c wheel.....mhhh maybe it could really reach the 100kph with these numbers if that electric motor technology allows for an efficiency similar to the actual standards.....

For reference this is our lighter electric prototype Bike, actually
file.php
it is made of 7005 easton tubings and has up to 40x18650 cells inside the downtube, and it weights 14kg with a Q100 or a keyde (as in the pic) and not so lightweight components, so why they would make a so complex and expensive design to reach the same result? yes the motor design is innovative, but I suspect even true power from a 4+Kg of electric unit+batteries on a 7Kg $$$$$ Bike

I've talked a bit with them, and said that It would have been way more interesting to see the mag wheel alone on the the scale :wink: an heavy, big dia rim (with those mags) isn't that good in any case on a speed lightweight bike....maybe a 16" or 20" wheel could take more advantages from this motor design?
 
I stand corrected Mein Herr.
 
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