going electric, converting one of my bikes

[knut7]

It seems the BSM guys have shipped my order already, placed my order friday 3am local time, was shipped 4pm local time! A lot quicker when there's no wheel/battery involved it seems. The order contains S06S bottle mount style, q100h 201rpm, hwbs and a spare cadence pas. If I'm not happy with this then I'll have another go at the KU65 I've got in spare.

The speed sensor is in place. Before installing it I got the speed in mph, even though the lcd claimed it was kph. The speed only showed while the motor was engaged. When coasting the speed read 0. Now, with the speed sensor on the back wheel, I get what appears to be accurate kph readings. I didn't have to change any settings in the lcd.

Guess I'll have to disassemble the engine and apply some grease, it sounds dry judging from the noise. But the rubbing slows down the wheel noticeably, and that worries me a bit. I'll probably rebuild the wheel with the new q100h 201 pretty soon.

 

[knut7]

Just had a 20k ride with at bit of off road, total climb of almost 500m, still a bit of battery left. Cadence sensor works, sort of. If I fall below 6kph in my lowest gear (30-34) it will cut assistance. On assistance level 4 and 5 I get lots of noise and vibration trough pedals and the seat, assistance level 3 is much more quiet.

I've previously mentioned problems when applying throttle while coasting at low speeds, it's a "berp berp" sound, sort of misfiring. This problem is far worse now. If I pedal at speeds above 25kph, it seems the motor will some times attempt to engage and I hear this misfiring sound while pedaling at speeds far higher than the motor is capable of maintaining. I have to stop pedaling and drop well below 25kph to make it stop. Hopefully the controller is to blame, and it will all be okay when the S06S arrives

 

[knut7]

I can't think what the rubbing sound is in your motor if it does it when no power is applied. I've never heard of that, so it must be something in your installation. You must have a look to see what's wrong.

Had another look at this, removed the wheel, held it by the axle and spun it. No noise, put a finger on the freewheel to stop it spinning, now the noise appears and the wheel comes to a halt a bit sooner. Either I failed to thread the freewheel correctly or there's something wrong inside the motor/hub.

 

[d8veh]

It could be a faulty freewhhel or wrongly installed. Can you remove it to see of there are rubbing marks on the motor side-plate?

 

[knut7]

It worked well without any sound for 100km, but its worth opening up and check, could be something is caught in there.

 

[knut7]

Placed my order for a new controller and some other stuff at BMSbattery friday just under a week ago, it arrived yesterday (wednesday), that's quick A lot quicker when not ordering a motor built into a wheel it seems.

Now I've just swapped the original S06P for an S06S. What a difference! I was pretty happy with the s06p initially, but I was not using PAS and I was in Denmark where there are few hills so the engine wasn't pushed hard. I noticed a bit of noise and some vibrations, but I thought that was to be expected from some cheap Chinese stuff. After returning to Norway and having installed PAS I wasn't happy at all. The s06s solved everything, no vibrations, even under heavy load, practically no noise, and it seems the PAS is working better, now I reach the same speed with hand throttle and PAS.

Plan on running a Q100 201rpm engine? Don't get the s06p! Don't believe BMS if they recommend it. Based on what I've read here I'm gonna claim the s06p wont work with any Q100 motor.

 

[mlt34]

It sounds like the rubbing noise is definitely an issue with the freewheel, not a problem in the actual hubmotor. It could be that it didn't get threaded on correctly (it's gotta be perfect - even slightly cross threaded might feel ok at first because the thread pitch is barely existent). It could also be something caught in there.

Do you have a freewheel removal tool? If not, you can take it off with a flat head screwdriver by smacking one of the teeth inside. Lightly tap the back of the screwdriver with a hammer or your palm. That method usually works as a last resort, but it's not recommended by just about anyone. Better to buy a cheap freewheel removal tool.

Did you get the freewheel from BMSbattery? Theirs can be cheap and every now and again have problems. Your situation could be a simple as just swapping out the freewheel.

So what's your total range like from full battery to dead to on that setup? And can you list what parts you've currently got on there? The thread got so long I'm little lost following it now.

 

[knut7]

Did you get the freewheel from BMSbattery? Theirs can be cheap and every now and again have problems. Your situation could be a simple as just swapping out the freewheel.

So what's your total range like from full battery to dead to on that setup? And can you list what parts you've currently got on there? The thread got so long I'm little lost following it now.

Got this freewheel, DNP Epoch http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007CCBJ5O. I took care installing it, making sure it was threaded properly. I'll get the proper tool, take it off and do the spin-the-wheel-exercice again to see if the sound is gone.

Current setup:
q100 36v 201rpm
s06s controller(bottle style)
thumb throttle right side (mounted one the left, thumb lever on top of the bar, works great)
5 pole PAS
speed sensor
10.4Ah bottle battery

I'm running 2x9 drivetrain, 40/30 crank. Lots of steep hills around here, I'm using the 30t ring a lot when I go off road.

I haven't done a proper test to check the range. I did a 20k ride with just shy of 500m total climb, not a lot of pedal assist, and had about a third of the battery capacity left. So 750m of climbing over 30km seems to be the capacity, but that may very well have changed with the new controller that doesn't waste juice on "shaking and screaming".

 

[mlt34]

awesome, hopefully you can figure out where that noise is coming from (and hopefully it's just the freewheel).

You should know that, though it is very rare, when a freewheel locks up it can be dangerous. All the sudden your bike becomes a fixie, and if it happens at high speed, your pedals become like spinning leg choppers. Again, this is extremely rare, but all the more reason to make sure your freewheel didn't have some foreign object enter it that is making that noise.

 

[knut7]

I finally received my Q100H (201rpm) built into a Mavic 119 rim from my LBS. The spokes and build job ended up costing twice what the hub+rim did! The wheel is installed, nice to have a well built wheel with proper offset. The whining noise is gone, it could have been caused by the axle nut on the drive side been unthreaded 1/3 inch. Didn't see it until I removed the freewheel. Nothing else appeared to be wrong.

Unfortunately all is not well. The wheel is quiet when coasting, but it's making a lot more noise than the old Q100 did when throttle/pas is engaged It's a vibration noise. Also, the max speed has improved a bit while the speed on the steep hill up to my house has dropped :/ Almost as if they sent med the 260rpm version rather than the 201rpm I ordered...

I don't wanna install the old wheel again, the new one cost me too much. The build job is coming apart on the old one (built by BMSbattery) and then there is that noise while coasting. I need to get the new wheel working. The integrated S06S controller has been working great up until now, but if I indeed got a 260rpm motor now then I guess the controller can't handle that.

I've got the KU65 as a backup, ordered 3 months ago, dunno if it's a "type 1", can't remember that being an option back then. Problem is I'm not sure the speed sensor and pas connectors will fit, seems a lot of the connectors are different on the KU65 compared to the S06S. The hand throttle definitely is different, but I guess I'll just skip that, pas is working well enough. Will have to search for the KU65 wire scheme and compare. Will be much appreciated if anyone know what kind of pas and speed sensor I need.

 

[mlt34]

Your pas and throttle should be compatible with the KU65, even if the connectors are not. You can cut off the connectors and just connect the wires directly if the connectors don't match. A lot of people do that even when the connectors do match just as a way to remove a possible chance of failure.

The vibration noise you said you heard is worrisome. Do you have any loose hardware on the wheel?

You can determine what wind motor they sent you by the no load speed. Do you have a CA or bicycle computer with speedometer? If so, lift the wheel in the air and check the speed at full throttle with no resistance.

Yea those bike shops rip people off on lacing jobs. Well, maybe it's not fair to say ripping off, because lacing a wheel really is an art and you're paying for the experience of the guy who is doing it. I think they rip off on the spokes though. I lace my own wheels, but if I didn't, I'd buy the spokes myself and give them to the bike shop to lace my wheel with, that way they don't charge me extra for every single freaking spoke...

 

[knut7]

I checked the no load speed briefly, it was about 35kph. Will check again later to get the exact figure.

Yeah, cutting the connectors is probably the best, it will allow me to cut the wires to a decent length too.

The KU65 should handle this motor without any problems? I could order a new controller if necessary. It's a bit tempting to get something that will let me continue using the S-LCD1 panel. The LED-810 panel for the KU65 is a bit dull.

I'm pretty sure the vibration noise comes from the controller or engine, it's a similar noise I had when running the S06P controller. Sounds like the motor is under a heavy load.

 

[mlt34]

Is there a chance that the hall or phase combinations are not correct? Motor noise is often caused by incorrect pairing of those wires. There are some combinations that 'work' as in the bike will drive, but the motor isn't happy and it uses a lot more current than normal.

 

[knut7]

All I did yesterday was swapping the rear wheel. The old motor was really quiet and I took care putting the Hall wires in the plug when I installed it the first time, so that leads me to believe the Hall wires are paired correctly.

Had another look at the no load speed, battery is at like 90% I guess (over 36V), 35kph is correct. Theoretical max speed for a 260rpm engine at 36V is 32.5kph. Man I regret getting the Q100H over the Q100 when I ordered the 2nd motor :/ When checking speed again I got to hear the noise again, it really is loud, can't live with that. So in an hour or two I guess I'll start cutting connectors and install the KU65.

 

[mlt34]

Yea that works out to 269, so it looks like you've got the 260 motor there. That noise certainly seems like a problem. I would contact BMSbattery about both problems and say not only did they send you the wrong motor, but this one appears to have a defect. Their service is hit or miss, but they've resent me an order before at no charge. Maybe you can convince them to just send you the replacement motor and you can relace it yourself using the same rim and spokes. It could be a good chance to learn to lace a wheel, and will save you a lot of money vs the local bike shop prices for lacing!

It'd be nice to figure out what the problem with that motor is though, because it could be easily fixable. If you pedal the motor up to a high speed do you still hear the noise? If so, then it's probably hardware or freewheel related. If not, then it's definitely an internal issue with the motor, perhaps a broken or deformed gear tooth. If you want to take the time to open it up, you just might find the problem. If it is a manufacturer defect like that, BMSbattery should stand behind it.

 

[knut7]

Had a look at the motor, and it's got a label saying 201rpm. Went for a test ride, starting with a little less than 90% battery. With hand throttle I get 30kph, that's 2 kph more than I got from the old Q100 with a fresh battery. I've read about others getting 30kph from the Q100H. So I guess I got the correct motor... The Q100H is supposed to have 30% more torque than the Q100, not sure how that is possible if both motors are 350w/36V and are fed 10A max from the S06S controller. Of course these specs can't be relied on, it seems to me the Q100H 201rpm will spin faster than the Q100 201rpm. I've lost 1-2kph up the steep hill to my house, that could be related to the noise, the controller probably isn't functioning properly. With the right controller the climb speed could increase, so I won't say the "30% improved torque" is a lie just yet.

I've got a trip planned this weekend, and I need to use my bike, so I think I'll try to fix this my self. I might try contacting BMS later if necessary.

 

[motomech]

This thread is hard to follow.
Both new Q100 motors make noise?
You are using the SO6S, but you think something is wrong with it?
You really can not test motors till you are sure the rest of the system is correct.
Put the KU63 on the system so you can eliminate controller problems. The throttle and PAS use low Voltage signals, so to test you can use wire nuts or "twist and tape" the wires. There is no speed sensor.
The KU63 is a solid 14 to 15 Amp controller and can be modd'ed to 17A.
If the motors are still making noise, it seems there may still something wrong with your installation. It's rare for any Q100 to have a problem, let along two new ones in a row. They are very easy to take apart, especially when new(before pedaling tightens the cover as far as it will go).
The Q100H is not going to make any more power unless you feed it more amps.
You now seem to be very concerned about motor speed. I suggested you go with a 48v battery back on page two, noting that 36V w\ a 201 motor would be slow and boring, unless one is trail riding.
At this point, you need to sort out the controller problem, before you start commenting about the motors. If you want to go faster, then you either need to get to 48V or get a higheer speed wind motor. For this, maybe you shouldn't have ordered another 201 motor when you ordered the H model.
When I suggested going with a H and 48V @ 18 or 19 Amps, the idea was to have a little more speed while maintaining as good a climb as a 201.
Right now I'm using a Elifebike controller on my Q100 CST @ 44V. It's a 9-FET 17A witha LVC of 41V(it's 48V capaible and seems to be a good match. There is a 19 Amp version that would probably be a good match for the q100H. They are available on Ebay for $40 shipped(to the States).

 

[mlt34]

who is the lifebike seller on ebay?

 

[motomech]

diyebike, it's the Elifebike store;

http://www.ebay.com/itm/36V-48V-350W-9-Mosfets-E-Bike-Motor-Controller-LED-meter-/321479310604?pt=Other_Sports_Fan_Shop&var=&hash=item76d457e99b

I just noticed that Ecrazyman has restocked his site with various controller models too.

I have been searching for the right controller for my Q100 application and so far, the 36V/ 48V 350W 9 Mosfet from ELB seems to be the best fit. Most of the BMS Battery controllers either to be too low powered or too high. And I don't like the way they keep changing things, like going from 63V caps to 50V ones on the KU63\Ku65's.
I had started with the original KU63s moddéd to 17A and they worked well, but I could get them really hot. I might still be using them except my sister threw them out during a house move.
On the standard Q100 328 in a 24"wheel, my 20 Amp Grin\Infineon will make the motor shudder at 12S, bit it's smooth at 10S
On the CST 328, the 23A S12S was smooth at even at 12S. It was really fast for a Cute, but would pull well over 1000 Watts, so for most applications is too much. I was hoping to limit current, but that can only happen in PAS.
So I have changed my mind about the controller best for me.
I like the simplicity of the LED 810. I must be techno clumsy, but I found programming and resetting parameters of the SLCD-3 to be a chore.
Also Elifebike states the spec.s of their controllers and their LVC's work with either 11S or 12S lipo.

Downside is they are a little large(pyhisicaly) for the q100, more midi size than mini, but I think this helps them run cooler.

 

[mlt34]

I liked the 810 as well but I use pedal assist so infrequently that I just switched to ku63's.

1,000 watts, I wonder how long the motor would last at that level. It'd be interesting while it lasted.
You could always limit amps through the CA as well. Just a thought.

I'll have to give those elifebike controllers a try next.

 

[motomech]

]I liked the 810 as well but I use pedal assist so infrequently that I just switched to ku63's.

I don't use PAS at all. I don't commute on my Ebikes and my riding style is usually "point and shoot". That is to say, I accellerate to speed with both motor and legs and then coast as far as I can, maybe giving a little throttle as I coast.

1,000 watts, I wonder how long the motor would last at that level. It'd be interesting while it lasted.

It was fun, but I perfer low power on the back motor to use like PAS. When I cruise, I set a low assist level and leave it on. When I need to pick it up, I apply power to the frt. motor. I think the motor would be fine for me at 1000 watts. I hardly ever tackle long hills and if I did, I would split the power between both motors.
I did a couple of long top speed runs(5 miles) w\ the CST\S12S combo and the motor didnt even get warm. I think it would take a really long hill on a hot day with a heavy hand for the S12S to kill the Q100. Higher Volts and current together could kill it faster I suspect, but I stick to 12S or lower. And the sine-wave controller was so smooth, I didn't get the feeling that it was stressing the gears.

You could always limit amps through the CA as well. Just a thought.

Yes, I'm working on that. My 1st. gen. Grin\Infineon has DP, so I converted my old 2.2V CA to DP. But it lacks the TO(throttle override)pin and instead has the TH pin. It doesn't run well with the throttle signal wire hooked up to that, I think I need to add a resister and a diode to the throttle circuit.
But in the mean time, going to 10S works well as I don't need anymore speed to the frt. motor than 10S provides.
Both motors together will get me to 23 mph, which is fast enough for me.

I'll have to give those elifebike controllers a try next.

I think you would like it. Think of it as a bigger KU65 that handles 48V and has a useful LVC. Mine is in a bag(something I would never do with the KU63)and it barely gets warm.
I'm trying out the 19A version on my Idrive's MXUS frt. today. It will be sensorless and if it works ok, I'll use the same controller with the Original EZee geared rear as well. I would perfer 22 to 25Amps for that motor, but I can't find another controller that fits the size requirement, handle 12S, run sevsorless and give me the LVC I want. I guess I will shunt mod it(something I'm trying to avoid these days)to 22 to 25 Amps.

Sorry to the OP for the thread hi-jack

 

[knut7]

This thread is hard to follow.
Both new Q100 motors make noise?
You are using the SO6S, but you think something is wrong with it?
You really can not test motors till you are sure the rest of the system is correct.
Put the KU63 on the system so you can eliminate controller problems. The throttle and PAS use low Voltage signals, so to test you can use wire nuts or "twist and tape" the wires. There is no speed sensor.
The KU63 is a solid 14 to 15 Amp controller and can be modd'ed to 17A.
If the motors are still making noise, it seems there may still something wrong with your installation. It's rare for any Q100 to have a problem, let along two new ones in a row. They are very easy to take apart, especially when new(before pedaling tightens the cover as far as it will go).
The Q100H is not going to make any more power unless you feed it more amps.
You now seem to be very concerned about motor speed. I suggested you go with a 48v battery back on page two, noting that 36V w\ a 201 motor would be slow and boring, unless one is trail riding.
At this point, you need to sort out the controller problem, before you start commenting about the motors. If you want to go faster, then you either need to get to 48V or get a higheer speed wind motor. For this, maybe you shouldn't have ordered another 201 motor when you ordered the H model.
When I suggested going with a H and 48V @ 18 or 19 Amps, the idea was to have a little more speed while maintaining as good a climb as a 201.
Right now I'm using a Elifebike controller on my Q100 CST @ 44V. It's a 9-FET 17A witha LVC of 41V(it's 48V capaible and seems to be a good match. There is a 19 Amp version that would probably be a good match for the q100H. They are available on Ebay for $40 shipped(to the States).

Yeah, thread is getting long, don't have to read all 5 pages

At first I was running a Q100 201rpm motor with the S06P controller, which was recommended by BMS, that didn't work very well at all. Lots of noise and vibration. After a while I got a whining noise as well, as if something had dried up. I suspected the noise came after running the motor hard with the wrong controller. I ordered the S06S and threw in another engine due to the whining noise, wanted the same engine but took a chance on the Q100H as it was supposed to be newer and better.

After quite a while I got around to swapping the motor, and now the whining noise was gone, but vibration was introduced again. I had a KU65 in backup so today I've disconnected the integrated S06S and installed the KU65. Due to some sloppy work on my part I fried the 20A fuse in the battery box, I only had 5A in spare so I installed that and tried the bike on the lowest PAS level. It seems to be quiet again! Tried applying at bit of throttle but that fried the 5A fuse Will get new 20A's tomorrow, I think all is well now.

Regarding engine speed, I didn't know what I wanted, but I took a chance on the Q100 201rpm, and that was spot on! Nice and torquey, top speed was sufficient. The new Q100H seems to be a bit faster with less torque, that didn't suit me. Now that I've got a 15A controller rather than a 10A I guess the Q100H will be more powerful, but that will reduce battery life, which is bad... We'll see what I think after using it for a while.

In conclusion:
Q100(201rpm)+S06P=Crap
Q100(201rpm)+S06S=Great
Q100H(201rpm)+S06S=Crap
Q100H(201rpm)+KU65=A bit early to tell, but seems to be Great.

 

[motomech]

Yeah, I have been having controller problems myself.
Glad everything is working out, I thought it sounded like controller issues.
Make sure you ck those spokes.

 

[ugn]

Nice thread, fellow Norwegian!
Have read your thread and followed your progress (and set backs) now and thinking about going the same route.
Don't feel I need the high speed, would rather appreciate stable help in the hills.

Hope you get another fuse and are able to test the new controller over some time now

 

[knut7]

So, I've got another fuse and tested for a little while. And I'm not as happy as I planned to be. Now that I've been able to increase the power a bit the noise has increased. And when I stop pedalling, it takes way to long before power is cut, like ~5 secs :/ And max speed is lower with the new controller, speed limit wires not connected. The motor doesn't feel particularly strong either.

I'm away for the weekend, but when I return I think I'll open up the old motor and see how easy it is to move the contents over to my new wheel. The second option is to get another controller. Third option is to live with the noise and just get a brake sensor.

2nd option is the most tempting. Any recommendations for a new controller for the 201rpm Q100H? Preferably sub $32 ex shipping, due to taxation. Don't need a 20A+ controller i imagine, but I really don't know, power consumption is a priority.

Hi ugn, nice to hear. What part of the country are you from?