Guru advice for super large rider

BigRider said:
Maybe I’ll see if Ecotaxi will sell me the frame, gearing, axles and whatnot, leaving off the wheels and their electrics.

Be very critical about whether the seating position you have in mind works with a given frame. If you are sitting low in the frame and the structure interferes with your pedaling (for instance, with inadequate heel clearance), then you won't pedal as much as you would otherwise.

My pedicab building partner, when I described your situation, observed that of all stock frames, the Tipke frame would be most suitable for recumbent or semi-recumbent rider position. That's because it is narrower between the cranks and the load bed than any other production pedicab. Tipkes are no longer in production, but you may be able to find a used one more cheaply than a new frame that doesn't work as well for you.
 
One of the reasons I had thought of separate left and right motor and pedal inputs for the rear wheels was the redundancy aspect for someone who may be breaking pedals, chains and sprockets. If you have everything tied together into a single drive and it breaks you are stuck, if you have separate drives on each side and you break the pedal side the motor side will still work.

I'm guessing that pushing the bike any significant distance is not on the agenda, reliability is a major issue for you with this.

I've done a back to back tandem recumbent bike that shed chains pretty regularly when I had both sets of pedals driving the rear wheel through a jackshaft and two strongish guys pedaling, I changed it to two wheel drive and it got a lot more reliable.

Also on the regen I had thought of it more for the smooth braking aspect than strictly for recouping battery power, if your hub motor is is geared 2:1 to a 20" wheel that means if you are going 15 mph the motor will be spinning as if it were 30 mph on a 20" wheel, pretty fast and there should be a reasonable amount of regen braking available. At 15 mph you will have the same kinetic energy of someone 1/4 your weight at 30 mph (E=mV^2).
 
The Tipke pedicab is made to handle three adults (one pilot and two customers), and that suggestion from Chalo is now my "go to" suggestion for the super heavy class. They are no longer in production, and...since they are a niche product, a used model might actually be affordable if you could find one. ($3,000+ when new). Even so, if an adequate budget exists, I'd use a H35XX as a non-hub at 48V, with the sprocket gearing capped at a max of 16-MPH.

Would require a custom bench seat and handlebar arrangement, too...
 
Jonathan in Hiram: You are completely correct. The walk of shame would be a very difficult thing for me. I have a small loop in my neighborhood I plan to do a LOT of my test drives on until I'm sure I can get a bit further away w/o exploding things.

I agree on the dual drive systems for a variety of reasons. In addition to the redundancy there's taking the pressure off the gearing.


After reading all the inputs and synthesizing, I think I'm not going to buy a pre-made frame. It's looking like that's ballpark 1500$ for something I'd cut apart and heavily modify.

I do think I'll go delta for the reasons spelled out above. Ease of fab. Ease of steering. Save the tapole for Mark 2. Titling is out of my range for now (I am a noob after all) and for that very reason I'll probably also leave off regen - whether it'd work or not aside. Got my hands full already :)

I already have my 26" OD motorcycle wheels. I'll probably use those. If not though I'll go for 20" wheels with 12 ga or larger spokes.

I'm probably going to go the recommended go kart differential and turn that into a frame similar to the one recommended (maxikart?). But that style A rear end or something. Use my old bike for parts for the head tube and whatnot.

Well, I'm torn. Mini-monster + tire on front wheel, or "BB GNG alternative" rear drive to the diff casing. Never heard of H35XX, so that's now on the research list. I'll always appreciate pointers to stuff I wasn't around for when someone learned a lesson :).

More reading to do. Thanks for your inputs. Anyone else w/ inputs feel free to chime in.
 
With a mid drive, you'd have to build using motorcycle components. Even a light weight rider can break bicycle components used to build a mid drive with moderate power.
 
Never heard of H35XX, so that's now on the research list

A Crystalyte H35xx is a common direct drive hub motor The last two digits can vary according to the specific characteristics you desire. The easiest way to incorporate a hub as a mid drive is the method shown by Rassy. http://www.ebikes.ca/learn/hub-motors.html

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=18606
file.php
 
BigRider said:
Thanks MadRhino. Why do you say big guys need small tires?
Big guys, after they ride for a while, all end up with small diameter wheels and large volume tires. It is simply because this suits much better riding heavy, with better torque, comfort and reliability.

Sorry for the examples quickly found, this is not meant to make fun of you, only to show that experimented heavy riders like to ride smaller wheels. If you build with a hub motor, a small diameter wheel is mandatory for a large wheel will not have good torque and will also require very frequent maintenance carrying your weight. The same for the tire, you need a lot of air volume and I suggest that you look for 4" wide tires. John's hubmonster, that is a scooter motor in a small diameter cast wheel, is just perfect for your requirements, no matter if your are building a bike or a trike.

McGuire-Twins.jpg


c15a9ac880443de98e382204d94dcff4.jpg
 
If you will use a hubmotor, then for sure you want a small wheel. Like the scooter hub. It's a lower gear. The other wheels can be any size you like.

Tadpole does have lots of advantages. I've wondered if pit bike forks would accept a scooters rear hub motor. Be wide enough is what I mean, you'd need an adapter for the fork leg bottom.

Reliability is paramount, and part of why I lean to recommending a stout hubmotor rather than homemade gear and chain setups. I'm in a simiar situation with my cargo bike. If my motor conks, I'm far to weak to pedal home more than a mile or so. I went with an old school, very rugged, crystalyte 5000 series motor. I have a 5305, and a 5304 for a spare. This is a 3000w capable motor, and I run it at about 1800w to keep it cool and reliable.
 
MadRhino: Yeah, mid-drive is off the table. I figure I’ll baby the first batch of the highest strength bike components I can find and see what happens. I looked a bit yesterday into go-kart transmissions and I didn't see anything I really cared for. I'm either going hub (one of John's Monsters) or rear drive (looking at LR's BB sheets if he has them and his primary drive reduction - driving the rear diff off the secondary side - but haven't done the math yet to see if that makes sense). Then there's the H35XX that SM pointed me to. Need to look into that and see what that does for my plans :).

SpinningMagnets: Thanks for the explanation and links! I'll definitely look into that.

MadRhino again: I don't get at all offended by talking about my weight and its effects. I sometimes get a bit embarrassed, but to hide it is like trying to hide an elephant in the room (pun not intended, but is apropos). I only get mad if someone's being mean. Hubmonster is definitely high in the running.

Dogman: The small hub wheels that John's selling is the only hubmotor I'd consider. And even then I'm not sure if I want the cogging during regular riding. The value to me of the direct drive is the freewheel. Then again at my weight I'm not sure how much purely unassisted riding I'd get in. And agreed on reliability.
 
BigRider said:
I already have my 26" OD motorcycle wheels. I'll probably use those. If not though I'll go for 20" wheels with 12 ga or larger spokes.
They may work, but I think that if you can find some 20"-21" OD or smaller motorcycle or moped wheels you'd be better off, for the reasons others stated. Rear wheels off street motorcycles may be better, because they are usually wider and will take a wider tire, and also have the brake and drive side mechanisms (which you can use for pedal chain and/or motor chain, should you go middrive direct to wheel rather than thru transaxle/etc).

Others have a better idea of which specific wheels to use than I do; I haven't yet experienced directly using such wheels on my stuff yet.

EIDT: added: Also, keep in mind that the larger diameter the wheel is the more "suspension" is built into it, assuming it's a spoked wheel. It also gives you a larger air volume in the same width tire, which also gives more suspension. It also is easier to go over bumps and uneven surfaces, and rides smoother.

It's just that if you are using a drive wheel that's large diameter, it requires different gearing ratio to the motor (if middrive) than a smaller one, or a different winding scheme in the motor if it's a hubmotor.

So...it might end up a better ride with larger wheels, but it's harder on the motor (and/or controller and batteries) unless you gear it right.


Never heard of H35XX, so that's now on the research list. ).
It's probalby not powerful enough to do what you wanna do reliably, with any normal amount of complete stops and starts, unless you are using it in a middrive to gear it down, or in a really really small wheel.

I've got the HSR3548 in a 20" wheel on the back of CrazyBike2, and it doesn't start me up by itself as well as I'd like, but it does fine in combination with the 9C 2810 in the 26" wheel in front. (it does fine once I am started up, just don't think it has the power handling capability of starting up the mass you need to get moving, without heating up too much from the startup currents).


I haven't got any direct experience with it, but reading about it here on ES I'd say Hubmonster might do what you want.
 
amberwolf said:
BigRider said:
I already have my 26" OD motorcycle wheels. I'll probably use those. If not though I'll go for 20" wheels with 12 ga or larger spokes.
They may work, but I think that if you can find some 20"-21" OD or smaller motorcycle or moped wheels you'd be better off, for the reasons others stated. Rear wheels off street motorcycles may be better,

21" street wheels are used on Harley-Davidsons and other motorcycles weighing 700 pounds or more, which routinely go highway speeds and faster. They are much sturdier than motocross wheels because the street bikes are so much heavier and faster.

BigRider: Don't make the mistake of using 12ga spokes with bicycle rims, thinking that thicker is stronger and therefore better. If you use bicycle rims, use 14ga spokes-- those have the right properties to support bicycle rims without loosening or causing rim cracks. That's what we use on the pedicabs in the fleet I work for, which spend a lot of time loaded up to heavier weights than your trike will be seeing. The thicker-spoked wheels we have that came from elsewhere require more maintenance. We use 26" and 29" wheels with 48 spokes.

Motorcycle spokes go with motorcycle rims. Bicycle rims use bicycle spokes, meaning 14ga or thinner. The strength of the wheel is in the rim, not the spokes.
 
Hey bigrider,

I just wanted to say at I think you are on the right track here, and congratulate you on finding a way forward. This forum is full of stories from folks who have found better health through ebiking. While my own challenge pales in comparison to the one you are taking on, ebikes started me down the path towards a healthy life, and I hope they will help you find your own path or at the very least add to your mobility so you can enjoy life more. Welcome to E:S!

-JD
 
amberwolf: Thanks for the thoughts on the smaller tires. The wheels I have now are Honda "Comstar" wheels - basically solid center for all intents and purposes. Not spoked.I'll research gearing and if it's looking bad I'll switch over to a smaller wheel.

Also, good datum on the 20" + HSR3528.

chalo: thanks yet again for your insights. I appreciate them. That's very interesting about the spokes. On my Cannondale back at 460lbs we had to constantly keep upping the spoke diameter until they finally quit snapping. I don't remember off the top of my head what the final spoke diameter was, but I can probably find out. Regardless - that's excellent info.

oatnet: thanks for the well wishes. Hope I can stick with this. I have a nasty habit of getting heavily invested and quitting, so I'm working hard this time to follow through. I have a lot riding on it (bah-dum-bum!)
 
I've built 3 tadpole trikes, all with higher seats than the kind you can buy. That's because I use a trike when I want to go slow and have lots of low gearing to get up hills as slow as 2 mph. The higher seat gives better visibility both ways but they do tip easily and I know for sure. From a structural point the axle will be a challenge, on my tandem trike I used 14mm BMX axles which are about as strong as you can get. The problem is the force of the wheel is applied as a cantilever load which results in a very high bending load at the base of the axle.

I have seen pictures of home built tadpoles that use a pair of forks to mount the front wheels. This can be much stronger, but it sure ain't cool looking. I think you chances of getting the strength you need are better with a delta and there are some that don't look so bad.
 
BigRider said:
I have a nasty habit of getting heavily invested and quitting, so I'm working hard this time to follow through.

The good news is that eBiking is FUN - once you get that EV grin, you will be hooked for life. You can ride whether or not you feel like pedalling, and get exercise on the days you DO feel like pedaling.

Don't worry about building the ultimate ebike on your first try, worry about building a starting point. Once you get hooked, you will find things you want to upgrade, then find yourself building another ebike, then another one... :mrgreen: it's a good addiction to have.

-JD
 
I repeat, you don't want a hubmotor in wheel as your drive, and that's coming from someone who loves hubmotors. It's too much load with rpms that are too low. Yes a hubbie, but gear it down with a chain going to the differential on the rear axle. The pedal input can combine at the differential too for parallel drives all the way to the drive axle.

If you really insist on running a hubbie in wheel, I've got a really slow wind X54xx with a 10" scooter rim built onto it that's sitting stateside that I could let go for a song. I snapped it up thinking of using it for a special hunting bike project that went mid-drive instead. It's got a special mounting arrangement that's strong enough to work for you, unlike common hubbies. The 2 speed MiniMonster won't work for you, and neither will HubMonster, because they are just too fast, so I wouldn't even sell one to you. Of the motors I deal in, the MidMonsters I have in Baton Rouge are the way to go. Cheap and plenty of power and torque for now, as well as down the road when you want more.
 
I would get a mid monster and run a chain drive using go kart 219 chain, plentiful and easy to get the right gearing. Buy controllers from Sabvoton, and use 20S hobby king lipo or 18650 cell batteries for the power. The motor will comfortably power you up hills.

For the bike i would suggest staying away from trikes unless you are going to custom build the wheel mounts. I would recommend a proper built chopper bike over a trike any day of the week, get something like the lead slead chopper frames as they are over built something shocking and at most might need some bracing around the head tube but you are under estimating a bikes strength unless you are planing to go off-road and do jumps :) Get a motorbike seat, some real cheap/old pit bike or motorbike forks as the bearings will match and it will also come with motorbike brakes and easy fittings for a motorbike wheel, use a 21" rim for the front and you can use a 19" rim on the rear but you will find a 21" motorbike rim will lace onto a 26" hub and spokes so you could do it easy buy just buying a used DH wheel with a 12mm axle.
 

Attachments

  • DSC_0412.jpg
    DSC_0412.jpg
    214.3 KB · Views: 1,996
  • Chopper bike.jpg
    Chopper bike.jpg
    48.8 KB · Views: 886
This was me a year or two ago. I weighed 243lbs, I had chronic heartburn, chronic insomnia, and to run 1/4 mile without stopping to catch my breath was impossible.

luke%2Bfat.jpg


Luke%2Bn%2BTrevor.jpg



Initially, I stopped eating dead animal carcass just because I realized if I wouldn't personally be willing to cut a cow or pigs throat myself, how can I justify paying someone else to torture and murder that animal for me?

Removing carcass from my diet was amazing. Heartburn was gone in a week, insomnia became manageable, and I started running on my own purely for the pleasure of running (running had always previous felt like torture than pleasure). As a vegetarian my weight dropped from 243lbs to ~185lbs, and just stayed there. I wasn't dieting anymore, it just stayed ~185lbs.

Then I eliminated animal bodily fluids from my diet (milk/butter/cheese etc).

This made a massive positive change in my life, and body weight dropped to 160lbs without dieting! No more insomnia, never again have experienced heartburn, and I can now run 20miles continuously without so much as a drink of water along the way, and not feel tired. At 160lbs, I can jump and climb and run and ride and play hard all day and never get tired or fatigued anymore, I never would have believed this human body machine is such a capable device when you simply fuel it properly.

20140513_173413.jpg


20140513_172125%280%29.jpg


I used to eat almost only meat (fruit or veggie of some kind less than once per week). I never had inner peace, I never knew how amazing it feels to be piloting a healthy human body. Now I eat only veggies, fruits, nuts and seeds. I've never appreciated and enjoyed my meals more. I've never felt this healthy, even as an athlete (swimming) in highschool/college. Most importantly, ceasing to pay others to constantly be torturing and murdering animals helped me to find an unbreakable inner peace. Reguardless of whatever the situation may be, there can be no moment in life without inner peace that is better than any moment with it. My joy and elation is perpetual, unlimited and unbreakable, and yours can be too!

Nobody in the world can do it for you. It is something only you can do for yourself by choosing to do it. I know if you want to make that 700lbs number into perhaps 165-170lbs, it only takes choosing to skip the animal carcass and bodily fluids when choosing something to eat. Raw leafy green vegetables WORK.


With respect to the bicycle build, which I think is awesome, listen to Chalo. He has spent a lifetime acquiring expertise of all things related to heavy duty service bicycles, and has never steered me wrong with advice.
 
FWIW, I haven't told anyone my real name - not out of secrecy - just didn't. I'm also a John and live in in a KC suburb.

IdleMind:Good advice. The axle mount to spindle was a concern of mine. That's one of the parts I was going to have professionally welded. Nothing like having a wheel come off. Even then I wasn't 100% comfy w/ the stress on that point.

JD - I've totally tried to make things as easy to make as possible that gets the job done. Strength and reliability are my #1 goals. Secondary will be style and looking awesome ;). And I totally plan on at least a second - assuming I actually ride and lose weight.

John in CR: Well and succinctly put. I appreciate your candor and input. While I had planned to do the math on the hubbies you sell, sounds like there's not much point. I'm not married to any particular idea. I got on here to ask for advice from those that have been there and broke that :). I'd far rather you all trash my existing solidworks I spent the past few weekends on (practice! Next time will be faster!) than to build a bike that breaks constantly and endangers me and I've wasted a stupid amount of money and efforts on. That's EXACTLY what I hope to avoid by asking you all advice. So I appreciate it.

The best part? I'm not kidding. I was originally thinking delta trike with a rear diff with a motor assist dual drive to the diff casing. Then I guess I read too many threads :).


Bluefang: That's a pretty super sweet looking bike. If I weren't so married to the idea of a trike I'd totally look into that. I will build the wheel mounts, front and rear. The rear is looking like 1" axle and solid motorcycle wheels (or I replace them, not sure on that yet). The front I'm going to make my own forks.

But I gotta say - that's a very cool idea. I'm also going to save your parts recommendations into my research doc.


Liveforphysics: Thanks for sharing your story. I appreciate it. I'm not ready for that step yet, but I will remember your story.


And I am listening to Chalo. I am glad to hear what he says. I even did look for a TRIPKE (sp?) that he recommended :).
 
BigRider said:
Liveforphysics: Thanks for sharing your story. I appreciate it. I'm not ready for that step yet, but I will remember your story.

Thats a big call from LFP, We are all different.

I live on Steak and chips and NO Fruit or Veggies at all and have done so since i was out of home @17 working, 42 yrs old now and im still the same weight i was when i was 20 and i have to admit it does not stay exactly the same but it only goes from 165 to 170lbs and i drink atleast a litre of milk a day love my bread with chips or pure beef Sasauges and couldnt live without them.
My sister on the other side cannot lose weight at all and she eats very healthy and so do her 5 fit kids but if she even looks at fatty or bad food she will gain weight.

We are all different and i commend you for doing what you are doing.
 
Hi TC

Yeah, I've worked through every combination known to man I think on how to lose weight. I haven't gone as hard-core as LFP, but I have done serious calorie reduction and about everything known to man. And .... it all fails for me.

This series is the ONLY thing I've ever read that is like "HEY! THAT'S ME!!!!!!"
http://www.gnolls.org/2304/why-are-we-hungry-part-1-what-is-hunger-liking-vs-wanting-satiation-vs-satiety/

He describes everything I have ever felt, the reasons I failed so far, etc. Couple that w/ my medical issue (I literally don't have a satiation response - my only feeling of "satiated" is the overstuffed belly - long story, but .... it has it's effects).

But we're getting off topic :). I totally agree that everyone's different. But I was serious when I thanked LFP for his story. All those stories help with ideas / inspiration / etc. Maybe some day I'll go all rabbit and maybe that's what I've been missing :). Just not ready yet.
 
John in CR: I was looking around for your mid-monster and trying to understand it a bit better and I found your comments in a thread that to my simple mind look sort of contradictory. I'd appreciate your help on this. I'm sure it's not inconsistent, I just don't understand the different thought trains.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=47607

You said "I thought your vehicle had to deal with significant loads though...long hills and/or big weight. If so, I don't think MidMonster is the right motor."

But then in here you're saying I should look at mid-monster attached to the rear diff. Is the difference that there's some chain / gearing? I could see that.

I'm also looking for how to use this in a bike. I'm sure i'll get that out of some build threads. E.g. how to do you attach the sprocket? etc. But I'm just starting reading build threads. If anyone has a good pointer I'd appreciate it (going to start by going to the chopper thread I think).
 
I think you are making this too complicated by looking only at hubbies vs conventional mid-drives and are getting entangled in load problems with GNG-style drive systems.

The solutions on the table seem to be only two-fold: there is the thought of one big-ass hubbie w/o gearing grunting this load at low rpm vs a small-motor mid-drive and gears wound up to high rpm, shifted, and that shares the rider drive chain.

Here's the shot I posted on the previous page:

pedicabKartDiff.jpg
I thought the picture on the right told the tale: A jackshaft that could join the power of the rider and the motor while using a diff chain that you could never break by pedaling. Use the jackshaft to chain up a pretty big motor without gearing and pick up the rider input incidentally. Use freewheels on both. Freewheels mean you can't get regen, but there is no motor drag when pedaling alone and you can tow the bike as described earlier.

You have a slow limited speed range and there's no reason to use a small motor as a mid-drive and get involved with trannies and gearing to allow it to do the job. If you are willing to put a big motor on for direct hub drive, why not do the same for the mid-drive approach? Use a reasonably high-powered motor chain-ratioed to max out at 16-18mph using kart chain that can bear the load with negligible risk of failure - with no tranny or selectable gears. Look at it like a big fixed-ratio gear motor.

Build the rider drive as best you can and concentrate on rpm instead of brute force when using it. If you break it, no problem - it's unrelated to the motor drive.

I am a big fan of redundant drive - it's the main reason that I have 2WD - but the rationale of going that way so you can drive too much motor power though weak pedal components makes no sense. Split the motor drive out and size it correctly so it can't break - don't double up motors because your design is so flawed that you know components will fail if you only use one motor. Realistically, the only thing that's likely to fail is the controller or the halls. Mount up a spare sensorless controller so you can swap connectors easily and forget about it - a rare, unlikely, and easy roadside repair. If you really insist on dual drive for hot-backup, chain up another motor to the same jackshaft. Give the second motor a different real stump-puller gear ratio if you want and 'shift gears' by switching drives - running only one motor at a time. Done.

You have the advantage of a big heavy bike that goes slowly and has lots of room. Use these attributes to your advantage instead of looking to solutions designed for light bikes with limited space and a wide speed range - different problems entirely. My 2 cents.... :D
 
BigRider said:
John in CR: I was looking around for your mid-monster and trying to understand it a bit better and I found your comments in a thread that to my simple mind look sort of contradictory. I'd appreciate your help on this. I'm sure it's not inconsistent, I just don't understand the different thought trains.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=47607

You said "I thought your vehicle had to deal with significant loads though...long hills and/or big weight. If so, I don't think MidMonster is the right motor."

But then in here you're saying I should look at mid-monster attached to the rear diff. Is the difference that there's some chain / gearing? I could see that.

I'm also looking for how to use this in a bike. I'm sure i'll get that out of some build threads. E.g. how to do you attach the sprocket? etc. But I'm just starting reading build threads. If anyone has a good pointer I'd appreciate it (going to start by going to the chopper thread I think).

That was someone needing a new motor for a heavy scooter and wanting to try to get by with a MidMonster with rim still on, so in-wheel, and wanting 45mph. You'd bolt a sprocket on the brake disc mount on the motor with a chain going to a sprocket with probably 2.5-3 times as many teeth mounted on the differential. Gearing it down that way gives you plenty of torque to handle your load on take off. If you wanted to do the 12 mile Pike's Peak climb with that motor, I can guide you through some relatively simple motor cooling mods to make that possible, and get you to the top in about an hour. For your usage, mods won't be necessary. If you want cooling mods done for you, I can have my son do it for a reasonable price before he ships, and then you'd be set for a lot more fun when you want it. You won't be going off road in the mud, so there's nothing but upside even if you end up sticking with 15mph, which I doubt.

You'll be loving it so much that you'll end up wanting to put some battery charging shade on your trike and going on long road trips. Soon I can help make that easy too. :mrgreen:

John
 
John's motors are no joke.

Are there many steep hills you wish to climb on the bike in your area? Do you have interest in rapid acceleration? John's above described method would offer both very well.

If you have mostly flat ground though, it's my personal hunch it would work OK with a very beefy direct drive hubmotor like I had the pleasure of experiencing in Costa Rica on John's bikes.

Beastly motors. The experience was like having 2 cromotors laced into one wheel with respect to the power handling.
 
Back
Top