Has anyone played with "BLOCK TIME" on Infineon Controllers?

[John in CR]

Doc,
I would venture to say that you weren't reaching whatever it was that the controller considered top speed, so increasing a limit you never reach would have no effect. I bet you're loving the hard pull all the way up to cruising speed with the 5302 compared to your higher wind count rig where acceleration tapered off more rapidly with increasing bemf.

back to topic-

Mike,
First let me say all you technical wizards who are active on ES are just awesome, and your efforts and generosity of sharing is very appreciated.

Regarding my goal of 3 being my appropriate BT setting, I want to get to cruising speed in 3 seconds, and also have 3 seconds of hard acceleration be plenty for any passing I want to do.

You definitely nailed it regarding the hodgepodge of info spread across numerous long threads. I haven't even attempted to wade through it all, so I've yet to try connect any of my controllers to the computer. Well, that's not quite true, I have used Kelly's, but that hardly counts since a monkey could do that. I can't wait to see your I-book, it sounds like it will be a big help for those who want to learn how to "tune" these controllers to match the motor and real world use.

John

 

[mwkeefer]

I hereby remove myself from the above pool of people defined as experts... I'm just willing to read a lot and blow the occassional shit up! IMHO it doesn't make me an expert, to me an expert would know based on just specs and visual inspection what everything is for and how it works (Fechter)...

The book like most projects of mine has been ongoing for months... I usually finish about 75% of the "things" I start but never on time (unless I'm being paid at real work, it's different though cause I can hire 7 code monkeys and a few other peeps to distribute the work load... leaving me to focus on architecture and implementation)...

My largest concern is the rate of change... yes we are still getting 846 chipsets but 116 is just as common and I think there is a third set on the way... add to that the fact that many will have different firmware, not real big differences mind you as none of the chinese companies I know of diverge far from the MCU manufacturers reference implementations except as a cost savings measure but they will retain different and unchangable (by us) settings (maybe hardware hacks, knuckles and others are better on the hardware hacking side tbh)...

Honestly I may be crazy, it may be late... maybe I am experiencing a psycotic break or meglomaniac fuge state but...

It seems to me that between hobbies (RC Planes, Cars, Boats), off label but non ebike applications (weed whackers, kick style scooters, ev motorcycles, levs, etc) and any ebike application we are not a large market share... WE ARE THE frocking MARKET SHARE (damn hope my excintricity doesn't get this kicked to toxic room... ill edit if needed)!

Why haven't we done what the overseas manufacturers have? Infineon will sell their development reference kits to anyone, there are dozens if not hundreds of companies besides infineon who make similar ASIC or ASIMCU (application specific integrated circuit, application specific integrated micro controller unit)... most of the membership here and every self respecting RC hobbiest I know have the skills to build up a controller based on a standard PCB - shit, half of us already do in some way or another (Jermey thanks again for freeing me from the mental box)... Many of us have gone off and tried to design open source controllers and there are a few projects out there (open BLDC, etc) but... I think only 1 functional BLDC controller suitable for sinus (that's what most of our geared, direct hub motors and hobby in/out runners are)...

I'm just thinking, if we designed in the same fashion but adding all the enhancements members have contributed and then open the interface to a more robust PC configuration utility... what market wouldn't we fit in and succeed with? PCBs could be done with uber wide phase traces, reinforced with gold plate... no need to solder messy gunk and braid or wire in place, no need to desolder 100 leads then clean then beef a PCB and within reason we could control the base platform ensuring minimum functionality consistently... how long has it taken the chinese to add high voltage options and switching regulators and that's only keywin right?

Eh... forgive me... I just got the exposure light for my new homebrew etching tank (heated and ultrasonic like a jewlery cleaner... actually the element came from one) and it's giving me some inspiration, I am so tired of waiting a week for prototypes I pay 50-100 for... now I can whip up a PCB 15 minutes off my printer = )_

Back to the book... I will try to get it up this weekend, most of it anyway and remember there is no editor and I'm not an author nor engineer = )_ (what the hell am I anyway?)

-Mike

 

[John in CR]

Mike,

I don't care if you became a wizard only by trial and error, and had to buy a nametag at Kmart that says "EbikeMike, the Infineon Wizard". If you summarize and filter the stuff from almost 2yrs of Infineon threads, along with your own results of using that knowledge base, then you're aces in my book. If what you share indicates genius or expert status in my view, then I'll happily use those words too, no matter how humble you are. In the meantime, your effort is appreciated regardless of whatever description you humbly choose to accept.

John

 

[wasp]

thx mike i look forward to your info
i'll do some reprograming this weekend and report back
i've never felt a clunk in my 9C though
my current settings that i'm really happy with especially midrange punch are
57amps(max setting) and phase current set to 130 + 120% throttle and set to 15fet board (i'm running a lyen 18fet controller)

 

[Knuckles]

*

 

[John in CR]

Knuckles, aka the original Infineon guru, environmental engineer, and now we have to add "publisher" to your title.

 

[mwkeefer]

mwkeefer,

An easy way to "publish" your "book" is to use a "web directory" ...
Like this one here ... http://98.131.176.65/mwkeefer/

That way your publication can be a "Work in Progress" that will
always update based on this link ... http://98.131.176.65/mwkeefer/Mwkeefer.pdf

If you want I'll gladly be your publisher if that helps.

cheers,
Knuckles

Brother,

Following the link, I see you are already my publisher... I had no idea I posted so much > 1000 hits geez

So basically as I confirm pieces of info I leak them which is not the best way for sure as we have all recognized it's chaos (even with my new publishers Table of Contents)... but dumping in progress works in a public repository? Comeon bro you know that's not my style- can you see the backlash if I put the doc up there and say a friday night add some info that's wrong, by monday I'd have dozens of emails and pms with people hating on me for getting them to blow up their controllers... that's my concern anyway.

For the record, I was a little white boy with an AFRO so the opening of the PDF is close but no cigar (yet)...

and...

I will happily give you your 10%, sadly it's 10% of nothing since I will "eventually" publish the whole works (by then it's going to be 2 volumes, like I and O) for free.

-Mike

PS: Knuckles are you trying to say I am a Jerk? Considering it took me about half an hour to realize / remember where that line comes from... good movie though !

 

[Knuckles]

:lol: he he ... I was hoping you would "get" that reference ...
(not that YOU are a jerk ... I just like being a goofball is all)

[youtube]D3Vp9fQ616k[/youtube]

 

[mwkeefer]

I got it but it seems my brain is a bit slower than yours, cause it was about 20-30 minutes from time I read the line until it "clicked" where it was from... so really it was funny to me twice.

Since I think some people had ruffled feathers, let me give you an endorsement...

Knuckles is not a racist, he dislikes everyone equally (all joke here)

-Mike

 

[Knuckles]

Actually I LOVE Everybody (except methods)! :wink:

(and also that cock~sucker TONY from BP! ... Die TONY! DIE!)

 

[mwkeefer]

Hyena and Luke too? (figure to get this really hot id drop their handles)
-Mike

PS: 100% off topic but did anyone else notice on the census that caucassion was gone replaced with White? It seemed odd to me since last I checked white wasnt a race at all... close enough for govt work I suspect.

 

[Knuckles]

So my dingbat female dumped my kids bike.
Wrecked the throttle. So I replaced the throttle.

Then I gots to thinkin'. Let's try "shorting" the throttle to max (~4.4V).
Bang ... FASTER. The replacement throttle is maybe 3.8v at max.
Overriding the throttle got me to about 4.4v.

The speed increase was very noticeable.

With the throttle wires bare, just touching the leads with my clammy fingers boosted the speed to "real" max.

Just FYI.

 

[Arlo1]

So my dingbat female dumped my kids bike.
Wrecked the throttle. So I replaced the throttle.

Then I gots to thinkin'. Let's try "shorting" the throttle to max (~4.4V).
Bang ... FASTER. The replacement throttle is maybe 3.8v at max.
Overriding the throttle got me to about 4.4v.

The speed increase was very noticeable.

With the throttle wires bare, just touching the leads with my clammy fingers boosted the speed to "real" max.

Just FYI.

Uh oh so a nos push button might be a sweet thing to short the throtle out to give a burst?

 

[Knuckles]

Yes exactly. That along with the block time tweak might be a nice feature to max out the bike performance.

 

[Hyena]

Hyena and Luke too? (figure to get this really hot id drop their handles)
-Mike

Oi!

Great work on all the info in this thread Mike. I was reading this the other day and meant to comment but I got sidetracked with something else.
I joined in on the infineon programming fun fairly late and have been using trial and error going on little else than just the definitions of what parameter does what from the infineon tech reference threads so it's good to have some more evidence based data.

I've been modding my controllers by soldering a few strands of copper to the shunt then fiddling with the rated current (and setting the phase current to 2.5x to correspond) to get a figure on my wattmeter I'm happy with for general riding and the safety of the motor and fets. (full throttle from a dead stop up a steep hill - my street) I knew what the block time did but I don't think I was taking it into account properly in my testing. I set it to a fairly high value so it was probably overshooting the whole time of my short high load tests.

A question to clarify things (I would test myself but I'm still out of commission after my stack):
If I set a controller with a limit of say 40 amps in the software then soldered the hell out of the shunt and set the block time to 2 seconds would it draw 100+ amps for 2 seconds then drop back to the programmed 40 amp limit ? Or does changing the resistance of the shunt by soldering or adding material to it throw what the controller software sees out of whack ?

The 1:1 phase current thing for geared hubs is interesting too, I'll have to try that on my MAC when I get it on the road.

 

[auraslip]

It's amazing how little work has been done on tuning our bikes via software.

Some very awesome stuff can be done!

Change the phase current from 2.5x to 1.5x regular current for lower acceleration but higher top speeds.

More block time for more p-p-p-power.

Short the throttle for maximum power.

 

[mwkeefer]

Hyena and Luke too? (figure to get this really hot id drop their handles)
-Mike

Oi!

Great work on all the info in this thread Mike. I was reading this the other day and meant to comment but I got sidetracked with something else.
I joined in on the infineon programming fun fairly late and have been using trial and error going on little else than just the definitions of what parameter does what from the infineon tech reference threads so it's good to have some more evidence based data.

I've been modding my controllers by soldering a few strands of copper to the shunt then fiddling with the rated current (and setting the phase current to 2.5x to correspond) to get a figure on my wattmeter I'm happy with for general riding and the safety of the motor and fets. (full throttle from a dead stop up a steep hill - my street) I knew what the block time did but I don't think I was taking it into account properly in my testing. I set it to a fairly high value so it was probably overshooting the whole time of my short high load tests.

A question to clarify things (I would test myself but I'm still out of commission after my stack):
If I set a controller with a limit of say 40 amps in the software then soldered the hell out of the shunt and set the block time to 2 seconds would it draw 100+ amps for 2 seconds then drop back to the programmed 40 amp limit ? Or does changing the resistance of the shunt by soldering or adding material to it throw what the controller software sees out of whack ?

The 1:1 phase current thing for geared hubs is interesting too, I'll have to try that on my MAC when I get it on the road.

Oi,

Man i haven't heard that greeting in 10 years...

A.) Changing the resistance of a shunt (soldering, doubling, etc) so... if you for instance dropped the shunt impedance by 1/2 then your 40A limit becomes 80A when block time falls out after X seconds... In my case, I've always done that soldered shunt mod... then I set the primary and phase as low as possible and bT to 1 and then I check for peak currents... the infineons will shut down after about 4-5 seconds of stall (hold the brake line while hitting the throttle) so I haven't blown one this way... but given that new current reading, you can then fairly easily calculate the offset from stock and properly program the unit.

A.) Using a lower phase multiplier is really somthing that works best on geared motors, the reasoning being they will produce more torque since they are geared and the internal motor's torque is multiplied through the gearing section.. So in reality I don't loose much accelleration if any when running this way but for instance on my steel geared motor, this change at 15S didn't take away my sick wheelie torque but it did give me a top end of a touch under 32mph instead of 27 which was the previous max speed on a 20" wheel with the motor.

Also this will (imho) preserve the gears (plastics) in the hub motor since they won't see (in your example) a 250A burst for 2 seconds which would very likely fry the phase wires.

Q.) What Stack are you referring to that "took you out of commission" are you okay?

Hope it helps,
Mike

 

[mwkeefer]

So my dingbat female dumped my kids bike.
Wrecked the throttle. So I replaced the throttle.

Then I gots to thinkin'. Let's try "shorting" the throttle to max (~4.4V).
Bang ... FASTER. The replacement throttle is maybe 3.8v at max.
Overriding the throttle got me to about 4.4v.

The speed increase was very noticeable.

With the throttle wires bare, just touching the leads with my clammy fingers boosted the speed to "real" max.

Just FYI.

Knuckles,
What controller? If your running a 116, then you can get a bit more speed even... check your "Bar Protect" setting and turn it off... this option clamps the voltage to below 4.X volts for the throttle return instead of the 5v it should (in my testing)... disable that option and you can return a proper 5v throttle return (4.7-4.8v)... and nope, that is not the alarm system setting for when you ebike is chained in front of the local watering hole.
-Mike

 

[Arlo1]

It's amazing how little work has been done on tuning our bikes via software.

Some very awesome stuff can be done!

Change the phase current from 2.5x to 1.5x regular current for lower acceleration but higher top speeds.

More block time for more p-p-p-power.

Short the throttle for maximum power.

And to raise acceleration back up just lower the shunt resistance!

 

[mwkeefer]

Arlo,

I would think reprogramming the current limits or the phase currents would be sufficient in most cases... just be cautious soldering the shunt down... it is better (imho) to double up the shunts which in theory would half their resistance and make 40A setting into 80A - it's not exact but it's darn close.

-Mike

 

[John in CR]

Let's say I have a block time of 3. I take off and get maximum possible current for 3 seconds. What if I decide I want another 3 second, how do I get it? Can I just let off the throttle and goose it (I guess the E-Age saying should now be "juice it"), do I get another 3 seconds, or do I have to come to a complete stop to reset the BT clock?

I ask because once I'm dialed in I want to eat gassers for lunch, and the ones I can't, I want to at least surprise the hell out of them. I foresee rare occasions where I want to double my BT on the fly.

Now that I understand that BT turns the current limits off for that number of seconds, I want to understand what that no limit current becomes, at least in theory, since I have no way of measuring actual. I use large enough capacity packs that my batteries can't limit what is sent to the controller, though I guess pack IR is a factor. What are the other components? I assume winding resistance of each phase of the motor (can I simply measure that?), or is the IR of the mosfets more likely to be the next most significant factor after (maybe before depending on rpm) BEMF?

I just want to understand this no limit effect a bit better. I've got low turn count motors that are already difficult for controllers to drive. I say difficult because I've yet to feel a cool controller, and they're out in the wind with plenty of airflow.

On a related topic, what about the things that occur as the controller switches from no current limit to programed current limit...can that result in voltage spikes or other issues?

Are these good pertinent questions, or am I missing so much I should stay quiet till I learn more? A pointed answer is fine if it's warranted, I've got alligator skin.

John

 

[mwkeefer]

John,

I could be wrong but... why not just leave the block time at 6 and take it easy on the throttle when your not pouncing gassers?

To answer your question more accurately.. I believe if you throw throttle to 0v (off) and back on it would in effect reset the BT limit however this may not have the effect you desire as I understand it.

In short, you can allow all the current through the controller you want but the BT should only be set to the interval or number of seconds required to reach maximum velocity or top speed given your loaded weight... The reason behind this is quite simple, once your at max speed... you current draw will be a fraction of it's launching power and nothing you do, retriggering the BT interval or even opening up wide will ever make a motor consume more power than it needs for a given load and speed.

I hope that's not complicated, reading back over it... it seems a bit odd but in my experience it holds true...

A note - BT only comes into play when the throttle is pegged between 70 and 100% (give or take, but it's the upper 1/3 to 1/4 of the throttle travel range normally)... partial throttle is still within the limiter.

Let me use my geared hub as an example (yes I know you have a DD but it should still be resonably applicable) - 0 to Maximum Speed (dependendent on pack voltage) takes between 2 and 2.5 seconds and on 18S gets me to about 27/28 mph... with a block time of 1.

Setting my block time to 3 gave me 0-27/28 in 2 seconds flat before the max speed (even with a 1:1 primary to phase) was reached and then the current dropped on it's own.

I tested again using 5 as the block time and sure enough 0-max mph was identical at 2 seconds then the current fell off again.

Now if I raised my pack to 20 or even better 24S - I would expect a BT of between 3 and 4 would be required to acheive the best 0 to 34/35 mph speed which would in theory be my top end... I would also expect that if I doubled the BT again in this situation to 8, the same experience as above where after 3 or 4 seconds when max speed was reached it wuold drop out.

This is all based on flats accelleration but... if going uphill, the results would be somewhat different since it would in theory take longer to accellerate at any given current - Assuming you configured as I indicate above, and assuming you threw your body forward as you would on a hoarse going uphill... and could keep the wheel on the ground through the BT window... your going to acheive a higher speed uphill but then once BT falls out, the primary and phase currents must be sufficient to retain your momentum or add to it, this requires in some cases quite a bit of current.

A DD 9C 9x7 RH205 has a loaded kV of approx 10.10 and claim 80% efficiency... let's figure noload kv would be approx: 12.12 RPM per volt. That also means that a torque constant of 1355 / 12.12 = 111.79867986798679867986798679868 in oz per Amp input... or 0.58228479097909790979097909790979 ft lbs of torque per amp (phase amp not primary current).

Assuming you had a 50A primary and 75A phase limit... that would work out to 43.67 ft lbs of torque under the normal limiting but assuming you see launching overshoot similar to mine... I measure 70+A primary for the few BT seconds... that would equate to 105A for 2-3 seconds and result in 61.14 ft lbs peak to get you up to speed then drop back to the 43ft lbs level.

I am sure you can do the calculations given the above info for your own situation then simply google search for "Power Required for Accelleration" I found dozens of fairly simple methods of calculating required Torque and HP given the load... I think swblutos calc does a similar (or more) bit of work but I always want to understand how these factors effect each other and how to calculate them on my own... just for comprehension.

I wish I could give you more specific information on the BT or more accurately I wish I could directly answer your specific question but... I have never attempted to "double tap" the BT, I just set it to double what I need ( to account for hills when needed ) and simply use 0% to 75% throttle except when I want to pass or make a hill without loosing speed.

Hope it helps!
-Mike

 

[John in CR]

Thanks Mike,

Ideally my setup will have my typical cruising speed at 1/2 the true no-load speed. That's because I want maximum power available at cruising speed for passing, and also to ensure maximum acceleration up the scale to typical cruising speed. If I'm taking it easy, like bringing the kids to school or wet road conditions, it's good to know the BK doesn't kick in till near max throttle. Alone on the bike and good road, then I'll typically be WOT on take-offs, because it costs virtually nothing on an electric for that fun acceleration. I want 3 seconds of that, and get to my typical 35-40mph cruise in those 3 seconds. If I'm trying to impress someone from a red light, then I can see occasions where I want full current for the 6 instead of 3. Wheel on the ground isn't an issue, because my bikes are low and long. I'm pretty sure I'd break traction before any wheelies.

BTW, I've never reached maximum velocity on my bikes. I backed off just today at 97.2kph, because on the only sufficient flat stretch a truck was in my way on the highway and there was too much fast moving traffic in the left lane, so I had to back off the throttle and pop up from my tucked position to avoid having to use my brakes.

John

 

[Hyena]

Your methods of 'tuning' sound the same as mine Mike, thanks for verifying that.
On my Norco bike I have the current limit set to about 80 amps which as has been said, on 18S typically it isn't drawing that for long as the bike usually accelerates quickly to top speed where it drops back down. Where I did get caught once was switching into delta and nailing it for a while then came to a long slightly upsloping grade. It was pretty much drawing 80 amps the whole time and melted my 45a andersons.
I think I might back the rated current off to about 60 amps but leave the shunt soldered for 80-100 amps and set the block time for 6-8 seconds. Given you've just said BT only kicks in about ~ 3/4 throttle this will allow me to still accelerate to max speed with maximum torque when I give it WOT but will hopefully make the bike less twitchy at lower speeds (part throttle). I've had a few people throw themselves off when they get on and grab too much throttle and it launches away. This combined with a a 50% speed switch should make the bike much more noob and wife friendly.

What Stack are you referring to that "took you out of commission" are you okay?

Details here, nothing too dramatic, 2 broken wrists and a broken elbow. I should be out of the casts soon but will be a little while longer until I can ride again.

 

[mwkeefer]

Hyena,

How the hell are you typing even with 2 broken wrists.... nevermind, maybe I don't want to know... you don't let your kids use that keyboard do you?

Seriously... that's awful I checked your pics, I assume dual hairline fractures in both? Freaking painful (if not very impressive looking)...

I really feel bad for everyone who gets hurt riding, especially for those with breaks...

knock on wood, even my worst crash which was about 95mph (started at 105) on a Ninja 250 running down I95 to get my dad a fathers day card. They had lay down new cement and then grated it for the trucks... front poppped up, rear wheel got caught and started this odd speed wobble thing (felt like 40mph on a skateboard with loose trucks) and I remember my last thought as I pumped the rear brake trying with all I was worth to bring the front end down again.... "SHIT! I AM NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO FIX THIS" at which point I bailed back and away from the guardrail - sending the bike into the guardrail... I knew if I landed on my hands Id be done for so I twisted like a freaking cat but to land on my back... Wearing a nylon T and jeans, I had to arch my back after impact for the slide and I still have the shoes (minus 1/2 the heel) and helmet (with a nice 1.5" hole not from impact but from friction)... my only injuries, some road rash and no hospital... I dressed them and went back for the bike.

In all seriousness I should have been dead a dozen times over and yet never broke a bone... I think it has somthing to do with horseback riding and motocross as a kid, learning to fall.

Now back on topic... when your in the saddle again, give this a shot... drop the phase current to equal your primary current and test top speed and draw (even with the BT) then bump it up 10-15% at a time until you loose top end... whalla, maximum speed and the BT handles off the line launch.

I've been cautioned by another member just now via email that not all infineons have BT kicking in at 75% throttle or higher... some require full throttle (which means a proper return signal to the controller is paramount) and others he has seen kick up at 50% or higher...

Good news is, we can tell where it is... just launch from 2mph using 10% - normal current flow, ok 20%... etc when your current flow goes above the limit on your meter you know where your BT kicks in.

Get better bro! And for the wifey... buy (or borrow) a recumbent and tell her you are going to convert that... once she sees it, she will be perfectly happy to let you continue on the norco = )_

I nearly forgot... in delta mode you can really determine how many amps your controller will push as you have found out the difficult way (totally smoked everything would be the hard way)... to acheive the same torque available in wye mode, you would add 1.73X the current... so as you shift out of wye into delta and your max speed increases by 1.73% (which would only be reachable if you have sufficient current to create the power to overcome the wind resistance) it's like starting at 0mph again and yep, if that controller is modded to pass sick currents, they will flow...

Oddly... I've monitored my connectors (the 4mm gold from HK) and they don't get even a little warm... perhaps it's because I use an xacto knife to spread the little friction parts of the male side for a snug fit before connecting them but... I've pulled > 120A for 10 minutes and no meltdowns, maybe it's the low impedance solder... or the fact that I ensure the wires make full physical contact before soldering in place (meaning the current is passing from wire to gold with no layer of solder in between)?

-Mike