Hightekbikes Releases New High-Power Motor

[Fenman]

Please rember that I am not knocking this motor,
With the motors that i have ran this past year i seem to have higher speeds at the same voltage
With the Cyclone 1200 standard i can get 33mph {chain drive}
With a chm I am getting 28mph {1000w hub}
This is with standard controllers running of a ping battery48v 20a with a 95kg rider
I will look foward to the Testers reports about how well it handles the higher voltages,

 

[liveforphysics]

What attributes "matter"? It has a wider space between spoke flanges, the wires don't exit the axle, and the slightly smaller diameter may actually allow for a wheel build that doesn't break spokes constantly. Looking good to me so far.

1.813mm^2 motor wire x-section with 1.62mm^2 phase leads?
From a visual guess, <35% copper fill in the slot?

And most important, hubmotors get better (in all respects) as stator diameter grows. Efficiency is linked with the speed the magnets move past the stator, getting wider helps in a linear fashion with torque production, getting larger around helps with torque production and efficiency (magic-pie was something taking a step in the right direction).

Justin's flux measurements with back-iron testing on the flux rings showed going beyond 0.8mm (IIRC) was just excessive weight, and iron doesn't conduct thermally worth a damn compared with Al.

The decreased stator mass, yet increased active surface area could actually be a cooling advantage though. Remember, unlike was was posted, mass has no impact on cooling, only delaying temperature change. This stator may handle higher continous power, yet be faster to reach a danger temp under burst power situations (I call that a good trade IMHO).


That said, the 9C looks like crap as well, but tends to work pretty damn well in practice. This could turn out to be another unexpected diamond in the rough, as big performance factors like magnet strength, flux gap distance, lamination material, thickness, design etc aren't able to be seen from a few quick photos, and if they nailed those aspects, it could rock-and-roll.

I think the seller is going about this PERFECTLY, and the same way I would do it myself in his shoes. Much respect for taking advantage of this great community for doing a killer waranty for folks valuable real-world testing, finding the limits, advantages, potential issues etc. This is definately the group of folks to use for putting a new motor through it's paces.

So you run a 9c luke?

I don't know if you saw this:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14580
But I made a couple simple ebikes for my parents 9c, 72v 15Ah LiPo, 50A controllers (which sit in their garage collecting dust).

 

[dogman dan]

Those that are really nit picking this motor should ride it first, and then dissect every detail of it. Then you have real data on it. Terry's right to want others to test it. That way we have some confidence in the claims. Too much history of inflated numbers from too many sellers from ebay.

 

[liveforphysics]

Those that are really nit picking this motor should ride it first, and then dissect every detail of it. Then you have real data on it. Terry's right to want others to test it. That way we have some confidence in the claims. Too much history of inflated numbers from too many sellers from ebay.

I 100% agree with you my friend.

I also really like the way he is rolling out with the motor release. Get it into the hands of the experienced hubmotor hotrodders, and soon you will know what you've got on your hands. Diamond in the rough, or just another hub option. Either way it's always good for all of us to have more choices.

 

[Hillhater]

All good but..... I still say its a shitty winding job !

 

[John in CR]

Yeah maybe it was just a new guy at the factory's first winding attempt, and the motors are fine in general. If I was selling a motor, I certainly wouldn't share pics of that stator with the world.

Why shouldn't we nitpick anyway? It's not like the price is some great bargain, so for that price we should expect quality.

How about impressing us with a test report for the motor?

 

[gblast123]

Guys,

I am somewhat of a noob but I have the older aotema motor and it is really good... even at 36v, the torque and speed are more than adequate.

While the windings do look shitty, it does not mean that the motor will not perform...so I am going to bite and try it anyway. It is not the cheapest thing around but Terry is really a stand up guy and he deserves support... I am going to give him mine.

I am not familiar with the concept of the steel band, but that may level out any magnetic/electrical problems resulting from "shitty" windings. In any case, as they say in Brooklyn, "Try it.... you might like it".

David

 

[dogman dan]

Looks like I'll be getting one at some point to test. Be interesting to see if the windings look the same on all of em. But if it was wound better, it would be what, and ounce or two lighter? Big deal.

After I torture one on dirt trails and steep mountain passes we'll have a better idea of whether its good. I have owned a 5304 in a 24" wheel, so I will be able to tell if it really matches up to an x5 in power. I suspect it will perform well though, since the other Aotema was not bad at all. I still recomend that motor for anybody with hillls less than 7% that wants to go pretty dang fast on only 48v.

Since I live on top of a fairly tall hill, I've switched to much much slower wind motors for my personal commute bike.

 

[HTB_Terry]

The stock phase wires are 14 guage. While I had the motor open I tried to change them to 12 ga but they wouldn't fit. They only extend about 12 inches outside the motor so there won't be much power loss at high current but at some point that could be an issue. Someone with some experience with high current/voltage is encouraged to comment on when a 12ga wire is needed. Also the axle is 12mm wide (same as Crystalyte 400 series) not the larger 14mm on the larger rear motors. Better for the front (yes we have front versions) but not as good for the rear where more surface area on the axle can help prevent spinning, and still easily fit in the dropouts. I quite frankly see this as a limitation (small not major), so I am lowering the price effective immediately.

All comments and nitpicking are welcome. The constructive suggestions will be incorporated into future versions. A bigger axle and wires would be an example. If I go to the Aotema factory and tell them some people don't like the looks of your coils, and ask "could you make them more pretty?" That will not go over well and most likely will get a respnse something like "You crazy lao wei !" So no, that won't change, if you want pretty coils buy a bionx.

The magnets are quite large, I haven't measured them yet. But there is still room to make them even bigger, so that could be a future improvement. Of course, these could affect cost. There is alot of space inside the case, one thing I want to try is installing some relays to switch the coils from Y to delta.

 

[John in CR]

It's more than not being pretty. Sloppy windings will loosen due to magnetic forces and can cause problems over time. Just ask the guys with the sloppy wound RC motors. Hopefully is was just bad luck on the one you popped open.

 

[Gordo]

All good but..... I still say its a shitty winding job !

I agree and while sitting here with 20 X 40Ah LiFePO4 and controller on a 3500W frock, I'm not going to waste my time blowing something up only to receive another dud as warranty. My math skills are lacking, but 2 dead frocks make as much sense as pissing into the wind. After caressing the 10KW Collosus, I'll pass on the wet dream of "NEW HIGH-POWER."

 

[HTB_Terry]

John, not to belabor the point but RC motors spin at what? 2000-3000 rpm? Hub motors spin at 300-400 rpm. That is not a valid comparison. Also the entire stator by the coils is coated with a resin substance that is baked on. This prevents any movement and provides heat protection to the insulators. The coils in this motor are similar to the ones in the original Aotema that has been sold for 7 to 8 years now and which we warranty for 5 years. We have had zero, yes zero defects.

 

[Gordo]

To belabour the point, I just got off my arse, went out in the shed and wrapped a tape around my frock wheel. Exactly 60". I exceed 50 mph, on the flat, so that is 4400 feet per minute. Doing my best at gazintaz, I come up with 4400/5=880 rpm. Not being sure, I ask for corrections?
To better understand what is being described, I consider Hi-power to be 5-10KW, not over-volting a 750W toy.
Don't get me wrong, I am totally in favor of all attempts to harness electrons to move me. I'm not in favor of useless $2000 toys with a 10 mile range, BS descriptions and silly, meaningless, warranties.
Thanks.

 

[HTB_Terry]

Gordo, this motor is rated for about 2000 watts so it is not appropriate for your 10,000 watt setup. The term high power is relative, this particular forum is for ebikes, not motorcycles. With most ebikes running 250-500 watts, most people would consider a 4x increase high power. Again, its all relative.

Anyone who purchases this motor in the next 30 days and burns it up, will recieve a free replacement OR a 100% refund including shipping.

 

[rebelpilot]

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22346

I am certainly not an expert, but I can't SEE a significant difference.

 

[John in CR]

I think it was this section of one of the pics that caused most of the comments.


Regarding the motor pic I posted, it's not something I am promoting to sell, and I haven't even test run it yet. Now that you have them together, I see similarities in the stator that make be think they could from the same factory. Even the yellow coating on mine is much brighter than in my pic. I'm very glad not to have one with any rats nest looking segments. Something like that really shouldn't pass QC before putting it in a motor, so it just reflects poorly. I say pop the cover off of another motor that hopefully is wound more tidy and replace the pics. At least that's what I would do, but I also would have known not to post those pics to begin with, just like I know that a "stator" doesn't turn.

Terry's a good guy, and they've come down on their prices, so I'll stop picking on his product and hope the bit of messy winding isn't typical of the workmanship on the new motors.

John

 

[Gordo]

Anyone who purchases this motor in the next 30 days and burns it up, will recieve a free replacement OR a 100% refund including shipping.

I did not see the refund offer in your posts, until now. It doesn't get much better than that.

I would still like to see a flux map of that motor with those goofy cockeyed inconsistent windings. Looks like those done by the Chinese kids sitting on the curb in front of dad's shop, after school. Binderseendat. I just can't get used to the oriental concept of quality control, being the end user. MTBF is a very humorous ornamental description of quality. The joke is on us and it has been played one time too many on me. I have not bought a pig in a sack for many years and with e-bike stuff, this has saved me from many disasters. ES is a great guide, but even many smart guys have been well shafted by getting in on a "deal."

I noted you trying to poke #12 wire in without success. You might consider starting with bare wire and by using heat shrink tubing, you will have a much smaller wire than standard jacketed wire. Shrink the 3 individually and then shrink the bundle. Use shaving cream for lube and you won't peel or cut the shrink tube. For serious power, you need forced air as many have said. Most people are afraid of moisture or dirt. This has not been a problem for Arlo. Don't send him one of your motors unless you want it to see 100V+

I don't have a motorcycle, just a cheap 3KW scooter. It won't even keep up to a BMX, unless he keeps the front wheel on the ground. Also I have a shed full of bikes waiting for the numbers to make sense and do away with my scoot. I badly want a bike to push my crippled old feet along with my wife on her bike. I'm just not going to spend 2-3X the cost of my scoot to do it. When $1500, including 3 replaced cells, takes me up and down substantial hills for 60Km at 60Kmph, spending 2X+ on a bike than won't go 20Km at 40Kmph or come up my driveway is a NOT.

I still think this is a bicycle; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSh8uGcFpJs even if the guy riding it thinks it is a unicycle.

 

[rebelpilot]

Upon further inspection it appears that the "3500" watt motor has less copper, but it isn't easy to be certain looking at the pics. Less copper fill would make it easier to build a pretty motor
I am eager to begin testing.

 

[HTB_Terry]

Hightekbikes is looking for investors for several projects. One of them is a motor design and manufacturing facility here in the states. I can get started with only one million. Experienced motor designers are already in the area. I would hire about 20 people. If anyone wants to put their money where their mouth is, please contact me directly. Grant writers or venture capitalists are welocome.

In the mean time we will offer ebike products from the only country making them, China.

 

[John in CR]

RebelPilot,

I hope you're not trying to insinuate that the rats nest ebike motor is more motor than the one built to push a 300lb+ scooter at traffic speeds and climb 20% grades, because I'll happily take that bet and give you 3:1 odds without having run it yet. The pics are missing a comparable perspective, though it is quite possible that the exposed copper on the ends of each coil is comparable for the two motors.

The approach used for greater power is worthy of discussion, but it's probably done better in another thread. We're seeing an increased use of an approach that uses less copper and less magnet material than for Crystalyte motors for example.

 

[dogman dan]

A bit dissapointing that the axle is not fatter, if you are looking for 72v-120v. Of course, if you are going to use really high power, you start needing pinch dropouts like John in CR, and JRH have made anyway. But I suspect that a good set of torque arms will get you up to 18s lipo power without too much problems.

 

[liveforphysics]

If I go to the Aotema factory and tell them some people don't like the looks of your coils, and ask "could you make them more pretty?" That will not go over well and most likely will get a respnse something like "You crazy lao wei !" So no, that won't change, if you want pretty coils buy a bionx.

I have no cares or concerns about the visual appearence of a coil.

It's the coil resistance.

All copper on the edges of a stator slot is pure resistive loss, it contributes nothing towards helping make torque/power, but it does require you to send higher voltages to the motor for a given amount of current it draws, and then it wastes this energy as resistive heating.

A motor with twice the copper in the slot can make twice the continous torque output, and do it with a lot less waste heating. I would guess a proper hand-wind in this motor could at least double the continous power, continous torque output, while making a substantial improvement in efficiency.

It's even more critical when you've got a small shallow slot to fit as much copper in there as possible.
The advantages of a small shallow stator lam is of course reduced iron hysterisis loss.

For somebody looking to do a hand-re-wind, this motor looks like a great choice. As a wild guess, I bet you could get 72v performance with just a 48v pack with substantially increased continous torque capability from a wind that manages to make best use of the available slot space.

There is alot of space inside the case, one thing I want to try is installing some relays to switch the coils from Y to delta.

As folks have slowly been learning, simply picking the right wind for your needs is the path to most efficiency. No amount of delta/wye or series/parallel switching can offer a motor performance improvement in continous torque, continous power, or top speed over just choosing the wind that suits your speed needs to begin with.

 

[johnrobholmes]

Got my motor. It is certainly a chunk! OLD of the hub with the multispeed freewheel is like 158mm. OLD of the axle from machined face to face is 144mm. There isn't much room for a freewheel cluster, so I will be installing a single speed freewheel and grinding the axle flat for a narrower hub. It will go onto my LeToy II bike laced into a 16 or 17" moto rim

I agree, the axle should be larger coming out of the housing. The threaded and flat section should also be larger. What we need is a nice fat axle ledge so that the dropouts are not damaged when the axle is tightened. This is a complaint of mine for most hub motors.

Spoke holes are large enough to pass 11ga spokes, just barely. Probably 3.0mm. Much too large IMO, if this is bicycle use. 2.7mm would be fine to still pass 12ga spokes and still be ok with 13s. This is a complaint of mine on practically every hub motor.



This isn't really an ebike hub any more though. It is more of a light scooter or moped hub IMO, but that is just an argument on nomenclature.

 

[dogman dan]

I agree, that all the motors I've seen have this same problem, except for the heinzmanns. 9 continent has a scandalously narrow shelf bearing on the inside of the dropout.