How low to run the 48V 28 AH battery on my Arrow 9 ebike?

Zambam

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I have a voltmeter hooked up. Fully charged, it's around 55V unloaded. At what voltage should I stop riding and charge? I'm taking a 44 mile roundtrip ride tomorrow to visit a friend. Wondering if I can do it without straining the battery.

Today, with 36 miles on the odometer since full charge, meter was down to 46V (37%) running at 13 mph. Is it safe to ride it down to 42V?
 
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I had the cruise control set at 13 mph and the voltmeter was reading 46.7V. If I pedaled lightly, the voltage does not change at all. Is that what's called ghost pedaling? If I pedal a little harder, it goes to 46.8V. More harder 46.9V. Really hard 47.0V. This was on the flats. The bike weighs around 65 lbs. I weigh 115. Pedal efficiency is really bad compared to my drop bar Canondale roadbike (for aerobic exercise). Is it worth pedaling for 0.3V gain? What does that equate in miles? Maybe I should just use the throttle and ghost pedal when I ride on the sidewalk?
 
What controller are you using? It should have it's own LVC, appropriate to the voltage pack it was designed to be used with, normally marked on it's casing.

Does the battery have a BMS?

If it's a 48v battery that is 13s Li-Ion, generally a good stopping point is about 41-42v, which is why that's the LVC for typical 48v controllers.

If it's a 52v battery that is 14s Li-Ion, LVC would be 44-45v-ish.

That leaves the cells (if they are well-matched and/or at least balanced) at about 3.1-3.2v or so, a good safe margin that doesn't stress the cells. (if they are not well-matched and/or balanced, then the lowest-capacity/highest resistance cells could still be stressed by this, as they'll drop lower than the others, and only a monitoring device (like a BMS) with cell-level measuring will be able to tell this is happening to prevent it.

A BMS (whcih is designed as an emergency protection device to prevent cell damage and fire) will usually have the cell-level protection at 2.8v/cell or so...but you don't want to use that as a normal shutoff. This is there in case something is so wrong with the battery that one or more cell groups has enough less capacity (or enough greater resistance) than others that it drops further than they do under load down to the 2.8v minimum safe level. (below that, damage can occur to the cell--more damage the lower it goes, the longer it happens, and the higher the load on the cell when it is happening--if it happens long enough to drain the cell to zero capacity left then it will actually reverse in voltage, which destroys it, making a much worse fire hazard than just running it too low).


Ghost pedalling means not providing any noticeable input to the system. If you don't feel any loading on your pedals, you're probably not providing any of the motive power, depending on the system setup, gear you are shifted into, etc. It's sometimes used by people that don't want pedal to but have to for legal or technical reasons (such as PAS-activated systems that won't operate without the pedals moving, but where the pedals don't actually control the amount of assist, just turn it on by moving).

Sometimes it looks or feels like ghost pedalling, but isn't: You could be providing input without really feeling it if you are shifted into a low enough gear and are pedalling fast enough, since power is torque x RPM so if you spin faster it takes less torque (pressure on the pedals) to do the same amount of work.... This could happen either by design or if you never shift gears and/or your gearing is incorrect for the speeds / terrain you ride on.

To find out what 0.3v of your pack's capacity is worth in miles, you'd need to calculate what that is in Wh, and know your Wh/mile average usage. (A wattmeter will help you determine this, along with an odometer and a bit of math--the Cycle Analyst includes all this in one package so you don't have to do any math to get Wh/mile). Or measure the riding distance difference between riding while pedalling enough to keep 0.3v above what you'd see at the same points as when riding without pedalling.
 
In general, there;s no harm in running a 48V battery down to 40-42 volts, Your ebike controller is usually set to shut off at 41-42V, sometimes lower, Your battery has its own safety circuit, usually at 40V, Sometimes, a battery will drain below these limits on its own, and when that happens, the battery will inhibit recharge,

The fear is that if a cell gets too low, it can deteriorate and become prone to interal short circuits, which cause fires, but you have to discharge the battery well beyond the 40V to damage the cells like that. The battery sill prevent recharge before the cells get that low. When that happens, you need tech support to determine if it's still safe to recharge, Then there are often ways to restart the battery,

It is true that if you you limit your max charge voltage and never run past halfway you can achieve really long battery life. I don't worry about that.

Ghost pedaling is when you put no force on the pedals, but the bike controller recognizes the pedals spinning and runs the motor. Sometimes the bike may be going over 20 mph, so it can be appreciable power and a lot of current.

Tha Arrow 9 must be a heavy bike, but I would imagine a 24AH battery could do 44 miles. It's not linear, The other day, I did 44 miles on one of my ebikes, and the battery was down to 47.5 volts, I put on another 20 miles and I was almost flat, So I gusss you might get 48-50 miles if you had 36 miles at 47 volts,
 
What controller are you using? It should have it's own LVC, appropriate to the voltage pack it was designed to be used with, normally marked on it's casing.

Does the battery have a BMS?

If it's a 48v battery that is 13s Li-Ion, generally a good stopping point is about 41-42v, which is why that's the LVC for typical 48v controllers.

If it's a 52v battery that is 14s Li-Ion, LVC would be 44-45v-ish.

That leaves the cells (if they are well-matched and/or at least balanced) at about 3.1-3.2v or so, a good safe margin that doesn't stress the cells. (if they are not well-matched and/or balanced, then the lowest-capacity/highest resistance cells could still be stressed by this, as they'll drop lower than the others, and only a monitoring device (like a BMS) with cell-level measuring will be able to tell this is happening to prevent it.

A BMS (whcih is designed as an emergency protection device to prevent cell damage and fire) will usually have the cell-level protection at 2.8v/cell or so...but you don't want to use that as a normal shutoff. This is there in case something is so wrong with the battery that one or more cell groups has enough less capacity (or enough greater resistance) than others that it drops further than they do under load down to the 2.8v minimum safe level. (below that, damage can occur to the cell--more damage the lower it goes, the longer it happens, and the higher the load on the cell when it is happening--if it happens long enough to drain the cell to zero capacity left then it will actually reverse in voltage, which destroys it, making a much worse fire hazard than just running it too low).


Ghost pedalling means not providing any noticeable input to the system. If you don't feel any loading on your pedals, you're probably not providing any of the motive power, depending on the system setup, gear you are shifted into, etc. It's sometimes used by people that don't want pedal to but have to for legal or technical reasons (such as PAS-activated systems that won't operate without the pedals moving, but where the pedals don't actually control the amount of assist, just turn it on by moving).

Sometimes it looks or feels like ghost pedalling, but isn't: You could be providing input without really feeling it if you are shifted into a low enough gear and are pedalling fast enough, since power is torque x RPM so if you spin faster it takes less torque (pressure on the pedals) to do the same amount of work.... This could happen either by design or if you never shift gears and/or your gearing is incorrect for the speeds / terrain you ride on.

To find out what 0.3v of your pack's capacity is worth in miles, you'd need to calculate what that is in Wh, and know your Wh/mile average usage. (A wattmeter will help you determine this, along with an odometer and a bit of math--the Cycle Analyst includes all this in one package so you don't have to do any math to get Wh/mile). Or measure the riding distance difference between riding while pedalling enough to keep 0.3v above what you'd see at the same points as when riding without pedalling.
Here's a pic of my controller. I hadn't noticed before but your're right, the LVC is marked on the casing (40.5V). What does the controller usually do when the battery gets near LVC (I've never gone that low)? Does it give any warning or does it just cut power to the motor or to the bike?

I hope the battery has a BMS. I think it must have one since this is the delivery bike of choice, there are millions of them on the road here. I rarely see the delivery guys pedal the Arrow ebikes, they almost universally use throttle only.

IMG_2135.jpegIMG_2135.jpeg
 
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In general, there;s no harm in running a 48V battery down to 40-42 volts, Your ebike controller is usually set to shut off at 41-42V, sometimes lower, Your battery has its own safety circuit, usually at 40V, Sometimes, a battery will drain below these limits on its own, and when that happens, the battery will inhibit recharge,

The fear is that if a cell gets too low, it can deteriorate and become prone to interal short circuits, which cause fires, but you have to discharge the battery well beyond the 40V to damage the cells like that. The battery sill prevent recharge before the cells get that low. When that happens, you need tech support to determine if it's still safe to recharge, Then there are often ways to restart the battery,

It is true that if you you limit your max charge voltage and never run past halfway you can achieve really long battery life. I don't worry about that.

Ghost pedaling is when you put no force on the pedals, but the bike controller recognizes the pedals spinning and runs the motor. Sometimes the bike may be going over 20 mph, so it can be appreciable power and a lot of current.

Tha Arrow 9 must be a heavy bike, but I would imagine a 24AH battery could do 44 miles. It's not linear, The other day, I did 44 miles on one of my ebikes, and the battery was down to 47.5 volts, I put on another 20 miles and I was almost flat, So I gusss you might get 48-50 miles if you had 36 miles at 47 volts,
Thanks for the info docw009. My Arrow 9 is probably around 70 lbs with the accessories on it. It was glorious riding weather today, 75 F sunny no wind. Started off in the morning with battery at 53.7V (unloaded). With PAS disabled, I set the cruise control between 12 to 17 mph depending on the situation. Pedaled 30 to 40% of the time, the rest cruise controlled throttle only. Lot's of stops and starts in NYC traffic from Queens to Brooklyn. By the time I got home, I put on 45 miles. Battery was down to 46V while cruising on the flats at 14 mph. With 40.5V LVC, how many more miles do you think I can go?
 
What does the controller usually do when the battery gets near LVC (I've never gone that low)? Does it give any warning or does it just cut power to the motor or to the bike?
Most cheap controllers just stop powering the motor when LVC is reached. If LVC is being hit because of a high load at a low battery charge level (SoC), the controller may cause the motor to start and stop repeatedly as it releases the load then voltage rises above LVC so it turns on, hits the load and voltage drops and motor turns off, etc. Yours probably works this way.

More advanced controllers more and more often have a setting (or group of them) for how to roll back power to reduce voltage sag in this state, to get more out of the battery and not leave you just stuck with no assist at all. Controllers like the Phaserunner, VESC, and most other FOC controllers do this. It's possible more basic controllers like KT (kunteng) and Lishui also have this, at least in some models.

If the battery came with the bike, it's almost certainly got a BMS. Whether it works or not or is well-designed to do it's job might be another story, but that's something you won't know until it doesn't. ;)
 
By the time I got home, I put on 45 miles. Battery was down to 46V while cruising on the flats at 14 mph. With 40.5V LVC, how many more miles do you think I can go?
Presuming you started with a fully charged battery at 54.6V, and continued on similar terrain and wind speed/direction, we still would need battery voltage (at rest) at your 45 mile point to give a rough estimate of remaining miles. I say rough estimate because as noted above, battery voltage drop per distance travelled is not linear-- battery voltage diminishes less per mile when full and diminishes faster and faster per mile as it nears "empty."

Car analogy: Imagine a car with a fuel gauge that stayed at full for a long time; when it finally reaches half way it goes down really quick to empty.

Is it worth pedaling for 0.3V gain?
Depends on your objectives. Personally I like to get my heart rate up and pumping blood thru my system for various health and mood reasons so I pedal pretty hard and fast always, regardless of the small incremental tenths of a volt differences (similar to your experiences) it may make.

What it is telling us is that at higher speeds, the human is (only capable of) providing a small fraction of the overall power required to maintain that speed.
 
At rest (with throttle disengaged), battery voltage was 47 V at 45 miles in yesterday's ride (battery was charged to 53.7V, not the max of 54.6 V)

I do get my heart rate up when I ride my road bike, especially when I race other cyclists on the bike path that I ride in. Pedaling the Arrow 9 really sucks being so heavy and inefficient, with a fat thick wide cushioned seat which scuffs my thigh (but is needed for potholed roads w/o rear suspension).
 
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