How to connect this motor to Higo cable

[stronglite]

Hi all, can anyone please help?
Can I connect this motor (5 wire Gazelle) to my brushless speed controller (9 wire Higo cable)?
Guessing the motor is DC brushed with no hall sensor, incompatible with 9 wire brushless controller.
Thanks
Sam

 

[thomasates]

Hi Sam,
not knowing this motor or the Gazelle bike, there are in my eyes two possibilities. The motor harness has a black and a red wire of large cross section, so this is DC supply of some sort. It could be DC supply for a brushed DC motor, or it could be DC supply for a motor-integrated controller. I tend to believe that the shown motor has an built-in controller (check the pics in Gazelle Nabenmotor verrostet , google translate may help), but it may be a different model shown in my link. Anyway, the Higo cable provides three large cross-section wires (green, blue, yellow) that are providing raw three-phase power from the controller. The smaller cables are hall sensors and possibly thermal sensor connections. So to hook the controller up to the motor, you will have to remove the existing controller board from inside the motor, and feed new cables directly from the motor phases, and potentially the halls (if there are any, and/or if the new controller needs those signals). You see that might become quite a voluminous endeavour... If you're able to do the following, maybe it would be a good orientation: if you manage to open up the motor, you would be able to confirm that it has an own built-in controller? If you find out that indeed it is a brushed motor, it's a dead end for sure, as a controller for brushless motors cannot drive a DC motor.

So far my 2ct, HTH,
Thomas.

 

[Chalo]

A two wire DC brushed motor will not work under any circumstances with a three wire brushless controller.

Your motor might have a built in controller. That would account for why it would have more than two wires, but only two of them thick enough to carry motor power. Or it might be that the three small wires are a speed and/or temperature sensor.

Clamp the motor axle in a vise so it can't spin around and wreck the axle wiring. Attach the thick red and black wires to a 12V battery and see if the motor spins. If so, it's brushed. Brushed motor controllers are cheap as chips.

 

[stronglite]

Hi Sam,
not knowing this motor or the Gazelle bike, there are in my eyes two possibilities. The motor harness has a black and a red wire of large cross section, so this is DC supply of some sort. It could be DC supply for a brushed DC motor, or it could be DC supply for a motor-integrated controller. I tend to believe that the shown motor has an built-in controller (check the pics in Gazelle Nabenmotor verrostet , google translate may help), but it may be a different model shown in my link. Anyway, the Higo cable provides three large cross-section wires (green, blue, yellow) that are providing raw three-phase power from the controller. The smaller cables are hall sensors and possibly thermal sensor connections. So to hook the controller up to the motor, you will have to remove the existing controller board from inside the motor, and feed new cables directly from the motor phases, and potentially the halls (if there are any, and/or if the new controller needs those signals). You see that might become quite a voluminous endeavour... If you're able to do the following, maybe it would be a good orientation: if you manage to open up the motor, you would be able to confirm that it has an own built-in controller? If you find out that indeed it is a brushed motor, it's a dead end for sure, as a controller for brushless motors cannot drive a DC motor.

So far my 2ct, HTH,
Thomas.

Thank you so much for replying Thomas, I'll open it up and see if there's a controller inside. Hopefully able to bypass the controller and run wires out the axle to my controllers harness. Photos to follow...

 

[stronglite]

A two wire DC brushed motor will not work under any circumstances with a three wire brushless controller.

Your motor might have a built in controller. That would account for why it would have more than two wires, but only two of them thick enough to carry motor power. Or it might be that the three small wires are a speed and/or temperature sensor.

Clamp the motor axle in a vise so it can't spin around and wreck the axle wiring. Attach the thick red and black wires to a 12V battery and see if the motor spins. If so, it's brushed. Brushed motor controllers are cheap as chips.

Thanks for your message, I'll open it up and see. Does a brushed motor have much less performance than brushless? I know they're less efficient, but are they similar torque?

 

[Chalo]

Thanks for your message, I'll open it up and see. Does a brushed motor have much less performance than brushless? I know they're less efficient, but are they similar torque?

Brushed motors tend to be pretty punchy. They don't like being overcooked/overvolted by much, but their starting torque is good.

 

[stronglite]

Brushed motors tend to be pretty punchy. They don't like being overcooked/overvolted by much, but their starting torque is good.

Ah ok, so I'll try to get it working!

 

[E-HP]

They don't like being overcooked

No motor does, but in general, brushed motors are 10%-15% less efficient than brushless, so with the same energy input, the brushless will have 10% more of the input converted to turning the tire and that 10% is converted to heat with a brushed motor.

I'll guess internal controller: Renew a Faulty E-bike

 

[stronglite]

Well what do you know: controller inside! Now time to bypass it!
Will my controller work without the smaller (hall sensor etc) wires connected?

 

[amberwolf]

If you mean that you'll:

--remove the internal controller (or at least disconnect it from everything) and use an external controller

--replace the existing wire harness thru the axle with a new one that has at least the three appropriately-thick phase wires, wired inside the motor to the three phase connections for the windings

then if your external controller is sensorless-capable, then yes, it will work with just the three thick phase wires.

If your external controller is not sensorless-capable, you'll also need to have the usual five wires to the usual three hall sensors inside the motor, for 5v, ground, and signal on each one. If it doesn't have built in halls you'd have to install them in the correct spacing in the motor, or build a suitable external encoder (like Burtie did with an optical system) that still generates the right signals.


You can take a peek at my Stromer Mountain 33 Motor & LCD -- Repair / Hacking for how I went about gutting an internal controller and wiring such a motor with an external controller. (I then used that on the SB Cruiser for a few years before I finally broke the axle a few months back). Or there's GCinDC's Hacking a couple Stromers thread, and Doctorbass I think has a thread for a bionx motor gutting?

 

[stronglite]

If you mean that you'll:

--remove the internal controller (or at least disconnect it from everything) and use an external controller

--replace the existing wire harness thru the axle with a new one that has at least the three appropriately-thick phase wires, wired inside the motor to the three phase connections for the windings

then if your external controller is sensorless-capable, then yes, it will work with just the three thick phase wires.

If your external controller is not sensorless-capable, you'll also need to have the usual five wires to the usual three hall sensors inside the motor, for 5v, ground, and signal on each one. If it doesn't have built in halls you'd have to install them in the correct spacing in the motor, or build a suitable external encoder (like Burtie did with an optical system) that still generates the right signals.


You can take a peek at my Stromer Mountain 33 Motor & LCD -- Repair / Hacking for how I went about gutting an internal controller and wiring such a motor with an external controller. (I then used that on the SB Cruiser for a few years before I finally broke the axle a few months back). Or there's GCinDC's Hacking a couple Stromers thread, and Doctorbass I think has a thread for a bionx motor gutting?

Yep, that's exactly what I'm doing right now.
Any idea what the 2 extra wires near the caramel coloured insulation wrap, nearer the axe are/do I just leave them?

 

[amberwolf]

What did they connect to on the built in controller?

(best guess is temperature sensor, but...check the board first. if it's a temperature sensor it's probably resistive, so it will likely be around 10kohms at room temperature and drop from there as it gets hotter, or rise as it gets colder).

 

[stronglite]

They were connected to the controller where my finger is pointing.
I tried to run thr motor with just the 3 phase wires connected directly to my new controller and it just stutters, turns about 5° then makes a whirring noise...

 

[stronglite]

Guessing my new controller needs hall sensors because it's not working like this...

 

[E-HP]

Guessing my new controller needs hall sensors because it's not working like this...

You need a sensorless or dual mode controller like the guy used in the link.

 

[stronglite]

Didn't go quite as planned, shorted the battery while testing a spare controller... Klutz! Costly mistake hopefully the nice new Sanyo cells are ok. Anyone know who could replace the BMS for me here in Australia?