Is DC more lethal than AC.....why

cassschr1

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I was talking to LEVT (tidalforce support people) and mentioned running my bike near 100v. She immediately warned to be very careful at these voltages, could be fatal etc OK OK . Now today I see Kfong says he dont much care for voltages above 75v. Is there a difference ? Lets here from people that know. Cass
 
To me, i am under impression that DC is less dangerous for human than AC
(If someone else have different version, please explain...)

Let me explain:

If you have 100VDC, it is not felt by the body like 100V AC.

100V AC is in reality a sinewave that osciate between +165 and -165V.. creating a total difference of voltage of 330V

We say 100Vac because it's the RMs value of that sinewave that correspond to the same power dissipated in a resistor.

So 100Vac RMS and 100Vdc will dissipate the same power in a resistor.. but the voltage over the time is osciating in the negative and positive phase over the time and if we integrate the surface area under each sinewave and under the DC voltage we will get the same area = same power dissipated in a test resistor.

Since the AC voltage have a total dynamic of 330Vdc, the body will feel it more intense than 100Vdc and btw can be more dangerous for the intensity.

Doc
 
DC is ABSOLUTELY more dangerous than AC, especially at higher voltages.

100VDC compared to 100V peak to peak, is more dangerous because DC never crosses zero, it causes the muscles to contract. AC crosses zero and the muscles pulse, and at least give the muscles a chance to reflect away from what they're touching. Constant current will just sit there and cook the muscles/heart...etc. Another thing to consider, is the resistance of your skin, and if the skin is wet or dry, and if its thick skin (hands and feet) or if its thin (arm, leg, face). The lower resistance, the more likely you are to feel it. Its not as much the voltage as it is the fact that its continuous current.

At 100V, you may feel a little bit of a shock, but I doubt its going to be lethal unless you're touching + with one hand and - with the other hand, with wet hands (the path would be straight through your heart).
 
Doc, this goes way back to the so-called "war of the currents", when Nikola Tesla's ambition to distribute power via AC conflicted with Edison's desire to profit from having a DC generating station on every city block.

I'm sure the stories of demonstrations of animals being electrocuted with AC are familiar to those versed in this history, suffice to say there has been much disagreement about the "safety" of each.

Issues to consider of course include (but are not limited to) the following:

- The voltage of the source
- The potential current the source could provide
- Arc flash and subsequent reactive damage

Now - AC, if "grabbed", at 120V, tends to give a mild tingle - this is the muscle reacting by expansion and contraction in time with the sinusoidal phase.
A DC shock at 12V, in my opinion, is comparable in terms of pain - but I must stress this depends on entrance and exit points.

240VAC is much more painful, as is 30,000 VDC (example - piezo crystal lit butane lighters) - still, AC gives one a "buzz", DC a "hit".

Arc flash is likely a large concern with either flavour, especially at high voltages.

Of course, this is all off the top of my little head and I would love to hear some more substantial evidence in either direction.

Best,

- Mike
 
wow, good info here, i knew it was lower current needed than would be obvious, but read on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_shock
 
Dunno what is the most lethal but AC is in my opinion more dangerous because you got the neutral in the ground unless you are working on a isolated output. At least with DC you normally need to touch two conductors.
 
Can't find the link, but there is a documented case of a US Navy trainee killed with 9 volt DC trying to measure the internal resistance of the human body after puncturing the skin on both thumbs with the probes of an ohmmeter. DC causes muscles to contract, which in most cases and in my experience removes the probing appendage from a high voltage terminal rather quickly. AC causes muscles to freeze which in my experience takes the conscious effort of hitting the affected appendage to disconnect it from from the terminal. As far as breaking the circuit is concerned, DC arcs are more dangerous than AC arcs which tend to quench as the voltage passes through zero. Your mileage may vary.
 
Hey my name got mentioned. I guess I better reply.

When working with high voltage, the big concern is accidentally providing a current path through the heart. Since we work with our hands and in between is the heart. I recall reading 200mA is all that is need to stop the heart. Simple accidents can happen. There are many variables, if you have very dry skin you are less susceptible, but if you’re the type that has sweaty hands. Watch out. You can just use one hand, but that’s kinda of awkward. If you do use high voltages, best to err on the safe side. Wearing gloves is a good practice, and make sure all connections are covered and insulated.

This happened to a baby recently at only 5volts, I wouldn’t of believed it but it’s been on the news.
http://www.unplggd.com/unplggd/news/toddler-plays-with-usb-cable-ends-up-in-hospital-105616

Not convinced, put your tongue on a 9volt battery. Actually don’t do that.

Just doing a search on google
Safety

Voltages of greater than 50 V applied across dry unbroken human skin are capable of producing heart fibrillation if they produce electric currents in body tissues which happen to pass through the chest area.[citation needed] The electrocution danger is mostly determined by the low conductivity of dry human skin. If skin is wet, or if there are wounds, or if the voltage is applied to electrodes which penetrate the skin, then even voltage sources below 40 V can be lethal if contacted.
Accidental contact with high voltage supplying sufficient energy will usually result in severe injury or death. This can occur as a person's body provides a path for current flow causing tissue damage and heart failure. Other injuries can include burns from the arc generated by the accidental contact. These can be especially dangerous if the victim's airways are affected. Injuries may also be suffered as a result of the physical forces exerted as people may fall from height or be thrown a considerable distance.
Low-energy exposure to high voltage may be harmless, such as the spark produced in a dry climate when touching a doorknob after walking across a carpeted floor.


I came across this, something I didn’t know about.
“Higher DC voltages(over 200V) make blood electrolysys...then very small bubles of gas come into brain...this efect is lethal...human body can be very well and then after 1 or 2 min”

.
 
It appear that depending on wich kind of injury we talk about, DC or AC can be lethal.

We might need to reformulate the question here:

-Does our DC ebikes battery (24 to 150VDC) can be dangerous?
-If so.. How they cold and how it can happen to us with our installations?

let's be realistic here:

I would say let see what we see on the market:

-Generally the max allowed voltage for ebikes market is max 36V

-On my Fluke meter when i measure voltage above 40VDC, i can see the little flash logo appear on the LCD display indicating to be carefull with these voltages...

-For couples of years they say they want to develop car with 42Vdc electrical system...

Well 40VDC seem to be the max voltage allowed for costumers to have direct contact to with minimal risk..

I think that the average battery voltage the E-S crowd have is 48VDC? (we might do a survey for that...)

50%+ have or had 48V?
5% have or had 72V..?
1% have or had 100V ? ( me, Methods, LFP, gary, Bikeraider, etc)
0.015% or 1 out of 6496( actual registred members) have 150Vdc ( hey steveo! :wink: )

With this estimation, we could be 56% or more to risk our life when working on these ebikes electrical system? :roll: ... I would say.. possible... but...

Does someone here can say today he know someone who lost his live with that?...
Does someone here can say today he know someone who was severly injured with that?...
( the only person i know are Methods or steveo or me ( with pictures as a proof but it was more related about connector shorted (reverse polarity) Long nose plyers shorted to battery terminal ( me) or blown mosfet firework ( steveo)

Doc
 
Don't forget Gary Welding his wedding band!

This is pretty crazy that none of us know for sure what happens even though everybody uses it. I mean, I work with 18v drill all day long, ride on 36volt bike and have been known to accidentally touch 110 volt AC wires. I know the 9v won't kill me, definately can tell the difference between the new and old though :p

what I am saying is.... If I upgrade to 48volt instead, am I now in danger of death, where before those voltages are safe?

And what makes tazers so safe? And yes I have been tazed, but that's for another post in a different forum. :wink:
 
Speaking of Tasers... the company has some thoughts on the subject:
http://www.taser.com/research/Science/Pages/BasicElectricPrinciples.aspx

"Even though both the ADVANCED TASER M26 and the TASER X26 have 50,000 peak open circuit voltage, to jump the air gap, neither TASER device delivers 50,000 V to a person's body. The ADVANCED TASER M26 has an average (one second baseline) voltage of 1.3 V, with a peak loaded voltage of 5,000 V, 1,500 V average over duration of pulse. While the TASER X26 has an average (one second baseline) voltage of 0.76 V, with a peak loaded voltage of 1,200 V, 400 V average over duration of pulse."

"Many people ask how safe a TASER device can be since it generates a high (peak open circuit) voltage. In fact, voltage is not a key measure of electrical safety. While voltage indicates the pressure behind a flow of electrons and how far that electric current will arc through the air, voltage is not a key indicator of safety or effectiveness when it comes to stimulating the human body. The key indicator for safety and effectiveness is the number of electrons transmitted through the body – i.e. the current (I) over time, or the total electric charge (Q) in very short duration discrete pulses, and not the high open circuit peak voltage."

tks
Lock
 
Bottom line, be careful. When working on AC stuff, installing light fixtures plugs etc, and I know damn well the switch is off I still work with one hand as much as possible. I often short the wires as soon as I have the connectors off, and raised a spark many many times. Allways assume little old ladies turned the wrong swith off. Other times circuit testers failed me. They tell you the circuit is cold, or you didn't a good contact. So only a circuit tester that is on, and then goes off tells you it's cold. Even then, I try like hell to avoid having two hands in there possibly creating a circuit through my heart.

Hell yeah it's awkward, but every sparky I ever worked with on the job does this. By working safer on the cold stuff, habits develop that save your life when something is unexpectedly or has to be hot. Develop good habits and they will save your life, and your stuff. Wire nuts are great for covering bare wires temporarily while you work on things.
 
In actual use. I feel comfortable working with 75volts or less without gloves. Anything higher I start focusing on safety. I also have very dry hands so your mileage may vary since wires are sharp and the weirdest accidents sometimes happen. 60volts or less is classified as low voltage and considered relatively safe since your skin resistance is usually a high enough insulator.
 
Kfong, Im using 8 of your boards and my batt are not on a mounting board, just loose in a topeak bag.Are these boards live as the batt get hooked up cause there is quite a mess till there all plugged in. ( 2S4P dewalt 28v packs about 54V). Thinking about it, if you plug 1 batt of each Parallel string first, power may not be there until 2nd batt of a string is plugged in. I did touch main batt leads and did not notice any shock . I did this out of courisoty but not no more!!! Cass
 
54 volts is still under the 60volts determined safe by electrical standards. I would me more concerned with shorts due to bare contacts. Wrap the boards with electrical tape or heatshrink tubing to prevent stuff from dropping on them. You should be fine.

cassschr1 said:
Kfong, Im using 8 of your boards and my batt are not on a mounting board, just loose in a topeak bag.Are these boards live as the batt get hooked up cause there is quite a mess till there all plugged in. ( 2S4P dewalt 28v packs about 54V). Thinking about it, if you plug 1 batt of each Parallel string first, power may not be there until 2nd batt of a string is plugged in. I did touch main batt leads and did not notice any shock . I did this out of courisoty but not no more!!! Cass
 
i got a shock the other day from my 48V ping. my hands were wet and i was holding positive and negative andersons in my hands. it was a mild shock, like putting your tong on a 9V battery. the whole bike was wet with snow and road grit and i was trying to fix a fault. it happened to me several times because i refuesd to believe it was happening :D

ive also had a mains voltage shock from faulty equipment with small amount of ground leakage to the case. they felt more like a pulsed feeling.
 
I would refer you the European Low Voltage Directive

The Low Voltage Directive (LVD) 2006/95/EC seeks to ensure that electrical equipment within certain voltage limits both provides a high level of protection for European citizens and enjoys a Single Market in the European Union. The Directive covers electrical equipment designed for use with a voltage rating of between 50 and 1000 V for alternating current and between 75 and 1500 V for direct current.
From http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/electr_equipment/lv/index.htm

Basically this says manufacturers should take precautions against electrocuting their customers. It doesn't apply to products running below 50 V AC or 75 V DC. So here in Europe, 60 V AC is considered dangerous, while 60 V DC isn't.

Nick
 
I worry about fast dead shorts. I've had a few shorts that have vaporized metal plier heads completely... like, "where did it go?" And made dancing plasma balls of "stuff" and caused instant black scorched skin on my fingers a few times. Always scares the snot outta me. Kinda why I'm not so into building high powered battery packs anymore... I'm just too clumsy and as an avid bass player I realized I'd like to keep all my fingers. Heh, heh. :D
 
Let's get some data from the literature out to the sphere:

From Cornell: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/~asaxena/papers/IEEEPD-shock.pdf
Contact currents occur when a person touches conductive surfaces at different potentials and completes a path for current flow through the body. Depending on the magnitude of the current flowing and its frequency, the current can be lethal. Detailed studies have been done on current flow in human body [7,8] and sophisticated models of current flow have been developed. From these investigations for 50/60 Hz currents on human body, current levels have been determined which cover the range of effects from the threshold of perception, let-go-current, ventricular fibrillation, and cardiac asystole [4].

It is generally agreed that it is the magnitude and time duration of the current passing through the body that causes a given effect. The touch voltage is only important insofar as it will produce a given current depending on the impedance in the circuit path. Death at voltages, like 120/220 V, can usually be attributed to ventricular fibrillation.

The threshold of perception for a finger-tapping contact is approximately 0.2 mA. The maximum allowed leakage current for appliances is 0.5 mA. Currents above 6 mA are considered as Let-Go current limit [9]. This level is important because for currents above this level, the victim can be involuntarily held by his or her own muscles to the energized conductor and cannot let go. If a person is once frozen to a circuit, either he or she will get off and live; or he or she will not get off—the contact resistance may decrease and increase the current to a lethal level resulting in ultimately death.

By extrapolation from experiments on animals [4], the safe current limit for victim to survive is 500 mA for shock of 0.2 seconds.

[4] Theodore Bernstein, “Electrical Shock Hazards and Safety Standards”, IEEE Transactions on Education, vol. 34, no. 3, August 1991.
[7] F.P. Dawalibi, R.D. Southey, and R.S. Baishiki, “Validity of Conventional Approaches for Calculating Body Currents Resulting from Electric Shocks”, IEEE Transactions on Power Delivery, vol. 5, no. 2, April 1990.
[8] Magda S. Hammam and Rod S. Baishiki, “A Range of Body Impedance values for Low Voltage, Low Source Impedance Systems of 60 Hz”, IEEE Transactions on Power Apparatus and Systems, vol. PAS-102, no. 5, May 1983.
[9] C. F. Dalziel and F. P. Massoglia, “Let-go currents and voltages,” AIEE Trans,, vol. 75, part II, pp. 49-56, 1956.

From the University of Missouri: http://smarteng.mst.edu/sensors/electricshock.html
At values as low as 20 milliamperes, breathing becomes labored, finally ceasing completely even at values below 75 milliamperes. As the current approaches 100 milliamperes, ventricular fibrillation of the heart occurs--an uncoordinated twitching of the walls of the heart's ventricles. Above 200 milliamperes, the muscular contractions are so severe that the heart is forcibly clamped during the shock. This clamping protects the heart from going into ventricular fibrillation, and the victim's chances for survival are improved. However, there will certainly be other effects, depending upon the current level and duration of the shock.

Alternating current (AC) is four to five times more dangerous than direct current (DC). For one thing, AC causes more severe muscular contractions. For another, AC can lower skin resistance and thereby increase the shock-current. The skin resistance goes down rapidly with continued contact because sweating is stimulated and the skin oils and even the skin itself are burned away. Consequently, it is extremely important to free the victim from contact with the current as quickly as possible before the current increases to the fibrillation-inducing level. Also, the frequency of the AC influences the effects on the human body. Unfortunately, the standard electrical power frequency of 60 Hertz is in the most harmful range. At this frequency, as little as 25 volts can kill. On the other hand, people have withstood 40,000 volts at a frequency of a million Hertz or so without fatal effects.

So if you hands and feet are wet and salty and the voltage is high, it will be easy to drive the 6mA through you that will make you literally "toast". I believe as said before that the 42/48 volt so called low voltage limit is where "most folks" in "most circumstances" are statistically well below the 6mA Can't Let Go Threshold.
 
glad you mentioned this. since this is a more able and educated crowd.

if any of you are ever confronted with a coworker or someone in your presence comes in contact with live wire and cannot extract, you must take immediate and effective action to knock that persons appendage off the conductor. this is not a situation where you go look for the switch.

if you make contact with the person being electrocuted, try do so using a motion that allows you to be clear of the person after impact or verify that you are already isolated from ground yourself. evaluate if you can pull on their clothing without being in the current path yourself. but instant action can mean life, or otherwise the victim could suffer huge burns and loss of limbs and severe organ damage too with high current shorts such as linemen suffer.

linemen always have poles they can use on a buddy, you can use a plastic chair, or just kick the hand which is most effective. but usually people fall onto the conductor which means extraction requires pulling up, using a plastic belt or poly rope or carpet scrap as a loop under the arm or leg or head. anything non conductive for you to use to get the victim off the conductor.

render cardiac assistance if in arrest, immediately after removing them from the conductor.

if you work with high voltages you learn to ground everything before working on it. some of our rf stuff for the deposition equipment had huge high voltage caps. i have seen them blow a screwdriver apart when it was used to ground a wire by a technician before he worked on it.
 
from wikipedia:
A low-voltage (110 or 230 V), 50 or 60-Hz AC current through the chest for a fraction of a second may
induce ventricular fibrillation at currents as low as 60 mA. With DC, 300 to 500 mA is required.
If the current has a direct pathway to the heart (e.g., via a cardiac catheter or other kind of electrode),
a much lower current of less than 1 mA (AC or DC) can cause fibrillation. If not immediately treated by
defibrillation, fibrillations are usually lethal because all the heart muscle cells move independently.
Above 200 mA, muscle contractions are so strong that the heart muscles cannot move at all.

so, let's say you have a body resistance=1kΩ, (on the low side)

lethal Vac=1K*60mA= 60V lethal VDC=1K*300mA=300V
 
Eye protection has always been high priority for me. iirc an arc blast can be 35,000 deg. f hence the vaporized tools. Also the journeymen I worked with would look away when energizing a circuit. In this case it is the high amperage of the batteries we use on our bikes. Pretty sure most can deliver 2 or 300 amps or more for that instant that the conductors/tools are vaporizing.
 
Here is a lethal DC shock:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2905377/oh_my_god_man_die_with_electic_shock_40_000_v/
 
Hehe... Darwin Award winner fer sure... Wouldn'ta though the train was running 40,000V though??? Subways and streetcars in my `hood are only 600V DC
tks
loc
 
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