Kawasaki KE100 conversion

[veloman]

Hmm, maybe I'll try that. Thanks.
I am running a 16 tooth front sprocket, and a 56 rear. Top speed is 56mph with my motor on 77v battery.

I could run a lower voltage setup with a smaller reduction and less rpms too. But that would suck, losing all that potential power with less voltage.

I could also just do a smaller reduction for higher top speed. But then my acceleration would be a bit weaker, up to 30mph or so. Or less efficient. Nearly all my riding is <45mph roads.

 

[John in CR]

I could run a lower voltage setup with a smaller reduction and less rpms too. But that would suck, losing all that potential power with less voltage.

I could also just do a smaller reduction for higher top speed. But then my acceleration would be a bit weaker, up to 30mph or so. Or less efficient. Nearly all my riding is <45mph roads.

Those would both decrease efficiency and performance. Without a change in motor, a larger front sprocket would require a proportionately larger rear too. With that change I'd go to a 1/2" pitch chain, which would also decrease noise.

The idler is such a cheap and easy change that it's worth a try. Mine was with bike chain and a derailleur had enough spring force to do what I needed. I replaced the derailleur idler with part of a skateboard wheel. This is the only pic I have, but it should give you ideas:

 

[veloman]

Cool. Im running 420 chain. Would prefer to keep that, as id worry about going to higher power with a smaller chain. And I don't have the clearance for a wider chain. Im running about 6-7kw peak, but could go up a lot if I switch to 66ah Leaf modules. Motor is a perm132

 

[John in CR]

Cool. Im running 420 chain. Would prefer to keep that, as id worry about going to higher power with a smaller chain. And I don't have the clearance for a wider chain. Im running about 6-7kw peak, but could go up a lot if I switch to 66ah Leaf modules. Motor is a perm132

420 is 1/2" pitch, same as bike chain. I was thinking you were running the smaller pitch chain used by a lot of guys. With 16t on the drive sprocket you should be able to get it pretty quiet. It's mostly the loose chain bouncing around as well hitting the first teeth of the rear sprocket in a loose and non-uniform manner that's creating most of the noise. The idler can also damp noise from very slight misalignment too.

 

[veloman]

I pulled the trigger on a total of 10 Leaf modules for a 75v 60ah pack.
I am looking at pumping 36kw into my Perm132 for a couple seconds. (60v under load at 600a). Should be enough to freak anyone out who sees it, on my 220lb bike.

That's the same power as the Zero FX 5.7 and 60lbs lighter.

How much torque can a 420 chain deal with? Well, I'm actually a lot more worried about that shabby key stock I used on the motor shaft, as the biggest weak link. Also, my rear sprocket configure is bad (bolted two sprockets on top of each other to get the right fit/alignment). I'm thinking of going to a smaller rear sprocket now that I can run much more amps. Would reduce chain noise, and give higher top speed.

I hit 55mph yesterday, not maxing it out.

 

[Tommy L]

Very Cool!

Have you thought of Aerodynamic upgrades? I was so curious about Aero that I took my Catrike 700 and did this.
Although the Catrike sips energy from my cells to begin with, I believe that I did see speed increases and a drop in
watt hours per distance. The most noticeable was a day that I was in a very strong head wind. It was like it was not there!
Tommy L sends......

[youtube]rYdnkaAhVtI[/youtube]

 

[veloman]

Yes, I definitely have been thinking a lot about aero. I just need to fix the mechanical issues first, like crappy front brakes. (needs a disc front end and 17" wheel).

Don't you like that feeling of slipping through the air? No more roads made of molasses! :lol:

 

[veloman]

Looking at forks again:
I'm not sure how much travel these have, but I think these Fast Ace forks are designed for 14" wheels. If I put a 17" wheel in it, and stiffen the compression, do you think I could get by okay for street use? Just don't want to hit the lower triple on the tire!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fast-Ace-Pit-Bike-Forks-/201048636682?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ecf6ebd0a&vxp=mtr

I don't want 8+" of travel like on most dirt bikes. 4-6" would be ideal. The stock forks on my KE are just way too soft, especially with my fiance on the back, when we come to stop it dives a LOT. And I really need to upgrade to a disc brake and install my 17" street tire.

The Fast Ace steerer looks narrow enough for my KE too. And they should be on the lighter end, so not a 20lb front end which is overkill.

 

[Modbikemax]

Looking at forks again:
I'm not sure how much travel these have, but I think these Fast Ace forks are designed for 14" wheels. If I put a 17" wheel in it, and stiffen the compression, do you think I could get by okay for street use? Just don't want to hit the lower triple on the tire!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fast-Ace-Pit-Bike-Forks-/201048636682?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ecf6ebd0a&vxp=mtr

I don't want 8+" of travel like on most dirt bikes. 4-6" would be ideal. The stock forks on my KE are just way too soft, especially with my fiance on the back, when we come to stop it dives a LOT. And I really need to upgrade to a disc brake and install my 17" street tire.

The Fast Ace steerer looks narrow enough for my KE too. And they should be on the lighter end, so not a 20lb front end which is overkill.

The forks on those old bikes are pretty basic. We used to put spacers under the caps, about 1" depending how stiff, and slide the forks up the triple clamps to lower the front. You can then use clip on bars if you want. You can also play around with fork oil grades to change the dampening. Old trail bikes were pretty much a road bike with knobbies and a high pipe.

 

[veloman]

Well, I really need to get rid of these forks and put my 17" street tire and disc brake on the front. I've spent probably 40 hours researching this issue and I'm about to just buy another bike to convert. Maaaybe I could fit a huge travel motorcross front end on using roller bearing adapter, but I do not want my bike that high in the air. It will totally change the handling too. I really think i have no option to get a front disc and 17" wheel on this.

I'm just so burnt out from trying to do this. I can't stand this knobby front tire, and there are barely any 19" street tires that will fit (too wide). The front brake is a huge safety issue as well.

I spent so much time building this bike up, setting the motor and drivetrain right and it all works good now. Battery custom built to fit the frame. It honestly looks easier and cheaper to just start all over with a different street bike that has a front disc brake.

I've had it up to 63mph (not maxed) while on the highway the other day. Today I opened it up a bit to make a yellow light and hit 49 not even realizing it. I have the power set to 40% on my 600a Kelly. CA read 160amp peak today.

Chain noise has seemed to quiet down a tad, and it doesn't bother me as much. Maybe it just needed to wear in a bit.

 

[gogo]

The front brake is a huge safety issue as well.

Have you tried roughing up the drum surface, or high friction shoes?

The Shinko SR244 is more street oriented than the square-block SR241 or any of the square-block tires it copies. I'm running the original square-block Yokohamas on my 1980 KE100 and except for a tread harmonic at around 25 MPH, they seem fine. My friend is running Shinko SR244s on his Yamaha DT125 and they seem plenty grippy without any harmonics.

 

[Modbikemax]

The problem messing around with old bikes is that they are old bikes.
A lot has changed in motorcycling since the 80s namely brakes and tyres.
What you have was a pretty cheap low powered farm hack when new.
Maybe a later model donor is the answer.
Something with disc brakes and radial tyres.

 

[gogo]

The problem messing around with old bikes is that they are old bikes.
A lot has changed in motorcycling since the 80s namely brakes and tyres.
What you have was a pretty cheap low powered farm hack when new.
Maybe a later model donor is the answer.
Something with disc brakes and radial tyres.

If you read all the posts in the thread you'll see he's figured out that he would rather have a street bike. Everything is a compromise and part of his current platform is that it was less expensive than newer stuff. Personally, I like the ability to whack into a curb and ride across turf. A newer bike with longer travel monoshock would be nice, although lifting your butt and using leg suspension works, too.

There's nothing magic about disc brakes. They are certainly more difficult to maintain and cost more since you're supposed to rebuild them every three years. Its true though, that the single leading-shoe brakes on the KE100 could use at least an upgrade to dual leading shoe and larger diameter for his two-person load. The KE100 isn't a good platform for 2-up riding. A minimum requirement I'd have for 2-up is that the passenger pegs not be on the swingarm. Its almost a certainty that the brake drum is glazed from the loads he has subjected them to, and they'll need more frequent de-glazing.

 

[veloman]

The problem is that there isn't any modern street style/legal bike that isn't over 300lbs stock. Even the 250 Ninja is 400lbs. After removing the ICE parts, it might be 200? That's 100lbs excess..... but I guess that's the price for not bottoming the suspension with 300lbs of riders.

I don't need it to be idea for 2 up, just passable. Most of the time I ride alone, and want the lightweight. The soft ride is quite nice to have. Rough roads are a joy honestly.

I'm just a bit annoyed that there is no modern street style moto here in the US that isn't a tank. The tires, wheels, frame - all of that is more than adequate on the KE for 2 up. It's just the lacking front brake and soft suspension.

I could get a slightly better 19" tire for it, but rather put the money into a 17" full front end.

I'm going to give it another shot looking at fitting the 250 Rebel triple on the KE. No one wants to buy that front end for $40 here. I may need to cut out the steering lock inside the headtube of the KE. (not that I even can use it as is right now).

 

[gogo]

Bottoming out might be addressed by shocks with proper spring rate and adjustable compression damping. Are you using the pre-load adjustment when 2-up? Also, springs that have been compressed for 20 years will become shorter. You might want to try some progressive rate springs in the forks, or set them up for air valves with a cross-over. The easy thing to try first is a spacer to help compensate for 20 years of compression.

I know what you mean about heavy frames. I had 2 RD350 frames, but sold them both because they are just too heavy for <60 MPH. They're built for 110 MPH. The KE100 is just so much fun for ripping around town <50 MPH. Its a shame I was able to get its ICE motor running, because now its worth more that way and I'm going to have to sell it. No matter though, I've got a 1974 yamaha DT125 and 1970 Suzuki TC120 with an over-cradle frame that might be even better for conversion.

I have an early 70's G3 street frame I could sell to you. Its a lower height, slightly different frame, but has the same engine case and mount spacing. The fork tubes are rusted beyond redemption, but the frame and triple clamps/frame are street-angle. I think its the same tube diameter, but I'd have to check. It came stock with 18" tires front & rear, but they are toast on this one.

If you'd like, I can check to see if the 18" wheel from a G3 is a bolt-in for the KE.

Looked like this when new:

 

[veloman]

Rebel 250 front end is a def no-go. Would take way too much modification.
The me forks don't bottom out, they just dive when I use the front brake hard. Not a huge deal. Honestly, they need to be rebuilt. I will look into if they are adjustable. I just figured since I want a 17 front wheel, and disc brake, that I just put a better front end on instead of putting all that work into them. There are no 30mm forks that have a disc caliper mount.

The rear shocks are what bottom if we hit a dip in the road. Not a huge deal really. They have good damping still, so ride relatively well. Going to a heavy spring would be easy.

The Sr244 tire pattern is very similar to what I currently have, maybe just a tad bit closer space between knobs.

I just built a nice strong rear rack for it, installed a small scooter windshield and built a front fender today. Will post pics soon.

 

[Modbikemax]

There's nothing magic about disc brakes. They are certainly more difficult to maintain and cost more since you're supposed to rebuild them every three years. Its true though, that the single leading-shoe brakes on the KE100 could use at least an upgrade to dual leading shoe and larger diameter for his two-person load. The KE100 isn't a good platform for 2-up riding. A minimum requirement I'd have for 2-up is that the passenger pegs not be on the swingarm. Its almost a certainty that the brake drum is glazed from the loads he has subjected them to, and they'll need more frequent de-glazing.

I have owned a dozen or more motor bikes over thirty years and never rebuilt a disc brake yet. Pads yes and the odd flush with new fluid but that's all. Not a major operation, maybe an hour.
Drums on the other hand are a never ending pain. Dust build up needs regular cleaning and the linkages need adjusting.
Twin leading shoes can be a nightmare so unless you are restoring an old British bike steer clear of theses.
If they are grabbing we used to file down the leading edge of the pad as a short term fix.
Discs are not magic but they are 100 times better than drums in every way.
I had a Kawasaki KZ200 road bike which had a cable disc brake on the front. I converted it to electric back in the mid 80s with 3 car batteries and a truck generator for the motor. It was rough but the brakes were excellent.

 

[gogo]

I have owned a dozen or more motor bikes over thirty years and never rebuilt a disc brake yet. Just going by the recommendation in the Yamaha factory service manual, "Rebuild every 3 years".
Drums on the other hand are a never ending pain. Dust build up needs regular cleaning and the linkages need adjusting.
Twin leading shoes can be a nightmare so unless you are restoring an old British bike steer clear of theses.
If they are grabbing we used to file down the leading edge of the pad as a short term fix.
Had dual leading-shoe on my 73 BMW and in 50,000 mi. never had to clean dust except when off for tire replacement and only adjusted once when installing new shoes when I first bought it.. Stopped quicker than the Highway Patrol Officer with dual disc KZ1000.
Discs are not magic but they are 100 times better than drums in every way. Discs are a marketing thing and not needed unless you're racing.
I had a Kawasaki KZ200 road bike which had a cable disc brake on the front. I converted it to electric back in the mid 80s with 3 car batteries and a truck generator for the motor. It was rough but the brakes were excellent. Cool, would love to see that kind of disc brake up close.

 

[parabellum]

Modbikemax. I have CBT125 with cable disk brake in front of me and running, its electric now so i can post few shots of the brake. :wink:

 

[veloman]

After more research I've decided on this front end setup:

update: nope, I am keeping the stock forks. My next attempt is to weld on a disc brake caliper mount on the right fork leg. I need to take apart the forks anyway to add oil and replace seals.


These sites helped me immensely:
http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=20952.0
http://www.caferace.com/forktubesizes.pdf

 

[Modbikemax]

Good luck with that. I have messed around fitting different forks to different bikes before and if you are lucky it might go together without major surgery. Check disc diameter for clearance in the calliper and fork diameter to triple clamp diameter.

 

[Modbikemax]

Had dual leading-shoe on my 73 BMW and in 50,000 mi. never had to clean dust except when off for tire replacement and only adjusted once when installing new shoes when I first bought it.. Stopped quicker than the Highway Patrol Officer with dual disc KZ1000.
Discs are not magic but they are 100 times better than drums in every way. Discs are a marketing thing and not needed unless you're racing.

50k miles on a Beemer is bearly run in!

Even Harley Davidson have had disc brakes since the 70s, if someone were going to buck marketing trends and remain traditional it would be Harley.

But going by sheer numbers Honda still has drums on its 90cc step through so you must be right, right?

 

[gogo]

Even Harley Davidson have had disc brakes since the 70s, if someone were going to buck marketing trends and remain traditional it would be Harley.

But going by sheer numbers Honda still has drums on its 90cc step through so you must be right, right?

• 1969 Merger with American Machine and Foundry Company (AMF)
• 1972 First disc brakes on a Harley

Part of the marketing is that disc brakes are cheaper, initially. When you factor in rebuilding they are more expensive. Consumers thought discs were better because race bikes and cars used them. AMF was more a number-cruncher than traditionalist.

Same thing happened with BMW's Earles type forks. Telescopic was cheaper and consumers saw them on race bikes and thought that meant 'better'. Earles forks function better on cruisers, unless you're racing.

 

[gogo]

Good luck with that. I have messed around fitting different forks to different bikes before and if you are lucky it might go together without major surgery. Check disc diameter for clearance in the calliper and fork diameter to triple clamp diameter.

+1 about mixing and matching. I'd never expect a wheel/disc to match up with a different caliper/fork/triple clamp spacing.

 

[veloman]

Small update. I've been riding with the Leaf modules. Haven't tested full capacity yet. They increased my consumption about 10% due to the extra weight. No biggie. I see about 55wh/mile most times I ride around the city. 70-ish with my fiance on the back. It's great to have zero worry about range.

Chain noise seems to either be getting better or I am just getting use to it. Still loud at higher speeds, but tolerable. I haven't done the idler pulley like JohnInCR mentioned. Still thinking about it. But have more important stuff to work on.

Still waiting on the forks to come in.

I've had it on the highway last week. 7 miles at 50-63mph. Had no lack of power. Was seeing 3-7kw mostly. A lot of traffic makes it noisy and the wind, - not the most fun. Need some fairings to deflect wind. I'm so not aero right now. Fun around town though. Get's up to speed fine, once above 20mph. Have the Kelly at 40%, still not going to pull wheelies.

I made a bike rack for it. Similar to a "2by2" rack. Works good. I'll be mtn biking a lot more now. I can't even feel the bike there once I'm rolling. Not bad for a 240lb bike. I'd guess that 2by2 would not recommend it with a small moto like mine. The KE frame works well with the rear tubing extending over the rear wheel. Very solid. Pics to come.