LifePo4 Battery Packs for the Average Guy

[jeohearn]

OK, I am a newie. I currently use sla 3x12v 8ah and the duration is not enough. I've thought about sla's 3x12 12ah or even more. I've thought about LiFePO4 but for $400 or $500 it's just seems too much. I'm not technical and I really have no interest other than getting my bike to an adequate state and then I don't really want to have to work on it anymore. I live in the Bay Area, California so if you know of any local vendors to avoid shipping that would be great. I can pick up 3x12v 12ah for $39 at an electric bike store in my town but I don't know if I can trust the quality. Any suggestions?
Jeff

 

[amberwolf]

What range do you need, at what speed, and how much do you plus your bike weigh?

Remember that to get the full power (or close to it) out of lead, you have to pull a lot less amps out of it than it's rated for. Plus they only last a few hundred cycles at best, most of the time. I've been using SLAs and if I had money for something else, I'd get it.

Lithium in various flavors will be much more capable both in how much power you can draw from it without draining it dry too quick, even for a smaller Ah pack, and will probably last many more cycles, too. I'm going to make an educated guess that the lithium will cost over it's lifetime about the same as the lead you'd've had to use to do the same thing, and weigh a lot less. But it does depend on which kind, and who makes it, and so on.

 

[dogman dan]

Guess they forgot to shill bid on that auction, and went, " time to shut down and weasel on that auction".

Ping is da man, but High Tech Bikes sells a similar pack, from a California location. He also has great CS. So in a way , the local retailer does exist.

 

[Russell]

Guess they forgot to shill bid on that auction, and went, " time to shut down and weasel on that auction".

Ping is da man, but High Tech Bikes sells a similar pack, from a California location. He also has great CS. So in a way , the local retailer does exist.

People have been getting good deals buying the batteries at auction. I got my 48V/10Ah for $146 less than a Ping and I actually paid the most of anyone. The battery was delivered 7.5 days after the auction ended and has worked quite well so far. Of course if something should happen to my 'Chan-pack' I'd probably be up the creek without a paddle but they are selling a good product imo.

I don't know why the seller is getting kicked off of eBay time and again, I do wonder if it has something to do with their ad copy which shows the 5Ah cells they use as "Ping batteries". In any event buying a Chan battery is risky so people probably should steer clear of them until he/she/they get their collective act together.

It would be nice to have another competitor to Ping since that only helps us consumers. Ping is still the price leader coming in for example $81 cheaper than High Tech Bikes on a 48V/10Ah battery (even figuring free delivery for E-S members at HTB). EVComponents appears to have good prices on Headway packs however they don't include a charger and what the shipping charge is I couldn't say since their website won't compute it for me.

I thought by the end of this year we'd see more and better choices emerging for ebike batteries but it seems it's going to take a little longer for these items to become widely available and for prices to fall.

-R

 

[The Journey Guy]

I agree with Russell. When I won my "Chan-pack" on eBay, it was just before I started reading this forum, so I did not know what I was getting into. Anyways, I won my auction for a very very good price, and paid right away with Paypal. Then about 10 hours later, I see that they have had their account closed by eBay. I wrote all this in another thread, but I think it bears repeating here. Anyways, I freaked right away, and started to put in a dispute with PP. In the midst of doing that, I read a post that Chan made on PP saying that even though he was cancelled from eBay, he would still do the right and honorable thing.

I emailed him, and thus started my many dialogs with Emma, who basically told me to chill, and the battery would be here soon. True to her word, it came via AirMail in only 5 days. I have been extremely pleased with the pack since I have had it.

And remember, they sent it even after their account had been cancelled.

All that to say this: There will always be a certain amount of risk when purchasing online, no matter who with. In the case of Chan/Emma, I would say the risk is a bit higher than average, but the amount to be saved is much higher than the risk. This battery pack is lighter, better constructed (imho) than Vpower (my first purchase in LifePo4 packs), and truer to the stated capacity ratings. Even before I read this forum and found out about Pings' great reputation, I did price comparisons, and his pack was priced at $280 more than the pack I got. For me, the risk was worth it.

Just one Average Guy's opinion........

 

[julesa]

Yeah, I believe in the long run you'll actually save money with LiFePO4 since they'll last so much longer than the lead-acid cells will. Also, consider these guys: a 10Ah LiFePO4 pack that can handle 100A peak current for $350
http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=H4810

I'm not using nearly that much current myself, but look at it this way: at a continuous 20A current draw, which do you think will last longer: a pack that is rated for 20A max continuous, or a pack that is rated for 60A max continuous?

 

[Russell]

Yeah, I believe in the long run you'll actually save money with LiFePO4 since they'll last so much longer than the lead-acid cells will. Also, consider these guys: a 10Ah LiFePO4 pack that can handle 100A peak current for $350
http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=H4810

I'm not using nearly that much current myself, but look at it this way: at a continuous 20A current draw, which do you think will last longer: a pack that is rated for 20A max continuous, or a pack that is rated for 60A max continuous?

I considered the Headway pack but it's overkill for the Bafang motor w/15A controller combo with which I'm primarily using the 48V/10Ah Chan pack. This pack also performed with no problems with my 9C/22A controller though of course there was more sag. The battery was also more compact than the Headway pack which was important to me. Finally that $350 price tag is not what you end up paying since there is a 10% surcharge plus an unknown amount for shipping and a minimum of $50 for a cheap charger so figure $475+. That's still a good price and not all that much more than the $418 delivered price of a Ping V2.5 48V/10Ah but it's still $200 more than what I paid. I am eyeing the Headway 36V/10Ah/30A max battery with rear rack which EVComponents also sells for a future 9C build.

http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=H3610R

-R

 

[avsmith66]

I'm glad that some of you managed to get a good battery from Lau Chan/ Emma, but I think you will find an overwhelming number of bad experiences versus the few good ones. There is a reason they keep getting kicked off E-bay.

It amazes me that some of you are so anxious to do business with someone who repeatedly has their accounts frozen and suspended from e-bay and paypal.

You don't get to see all of the bad experiences. Some of the people who get the bad batteries never get to post a negative reply on ebay, because they are lied to and manipulated until the auction disappears from ebay and by then they can no longer leave a reply on ebay warning others. This happened to me personally, so I know. I won a battery in an ebay auction and won it at an unbelievably low price(hint). The shipping was free, so I had no basis to complain, but he tried to get me to pay to upgrade to air mail. The price was too high, so I said the free shipping was fine. He lowered the price. I still said no, free shipping please. A few weeks later and no battery I emailed and am reassured that it is on the way. It did finally arrive 3 months later. And it did not work. Fortunately I was able to get Paypal to open a dispute even though it was past their 90 day coverage. I won the dispute, but it still cost me a bundle to ship it back to China. Many people had this same exact thing happen to them.

[I truly believe at this point that this is their system:] The first few auctions they always have good quality batteries, to get people talking and to get some current good feedback, and then once they get rolling again they start slipping in the cheap stuff, and the rejects. They run the auctions at no reserve with no fear, because if you win the auction at too low of a price, your getting the battery with the problems. They know that it will cost you so much in return shipping at the end that you will give up. By then of course it is too late to leave negative feedback, because so much time has passed. I'm sure some others get bad batteries even if they pay a fair price, but I have heard more stories from people that got the better deals getting the bad batteries.

These people are scam artists and they know what they are doing! They know how to work the system just like they know how to set up another ebay and paypal account right after they get the boot. Most of the time the new account they start using already has good feedback from selling other small cheap items.

I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do with their money, but it seems that we just cannot warn people enough to stay away from this seller. It all just falls back on the saying that "you get what you pay for", and "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't".



AVS

 

[wildnrg]

If I knew about this person and knew it was the same person on eBay before the auction, I probably wouldn't have bidded.

Although $250 USD (incl shipping) for a 25AH LiFePO4 is worth the risk, as I'll just get a refund from paypal if I don't get it, and if I do get a good battery, it would be at a good price.

 

[shady8282]

avsmith66, you seem to have gotten burned, but you should have realized that the shipping time from china for the free shipping would be you out of paypals dispute time frame. You were lucky to get any resolution at all. Many of us are getting great batteries from Lau Chan, but I knew the risk before I bought. Lau is not a scam artist as far as I am concerned and you are just guessing when making that accusation. If he were a US citizen you would be putting yourself at risk of legal action against you. Be careful what and where you say anytime, anywhere. Things on endless sphere are not anonymous.

 

[avsmith66]

shady8282 - Thank you for the legal advice. I'm glad you are having a positive experience with your Lau Chan batteries.

AVS

 

[dnmun]

avsmith,

he's really not having too good an experience. but LC is replacing the BMS which melted the FET off so it fell off the pcb, and also LC is replacing a charger which would not charge.

i think he feels that the low capacity arguments are not fair since he got a lot of mileage out of his battery pack. and that LC doesn't actually try to skip out on people but does respond to customer complaints.

your battery may or may not have been bad, like you say, we never saw it or had a chance to figure out why it did not work for you. do you still have it and want to fix it?

 

[avsmith66]

dnmun- I'm really surprised at your willingness to defend LC, as I have read many of your posts trying to help people who were experiencing his "customer service". I appreciate your offer to help fix my battery, but it was shipped back to China some time ago as required by paypal to receive my refund. When I pay for something, I don't expect to have to fix it myself(although capable), or pay for shipping to return it to get a good one.

I really am not here to start an argument or ruffle feathers. I got burned. I learned from my mistake. I am just simply trying to share my experiences with this vendor and my observations of the patterns of his business practices. Even if you didn't know anything else about his name or company, the fact that he has used more than one Ebay account is a big red flag. To have your account suspended or removed - an even bigger red flag. If you run a legitimate business and attempt to make things right it shines through even if you have few bad ebay feedbacks. When an ebay "store" has sold nothing but Anime cards and "trinkets" for the last year and then suddenly has LiFePO4 batteries listed, does that not seem strange to you? LC has used several ebay accounts over time and this is documented if you read this forum and dig some. A legitimate business does not need to do this.

I'm not criticizing anyone for buying from him, and I'm not here to say I told you so, I am posting here to make sure other potential customers are aware of the many red flags.



AVS

 

[shady8282]

Hey dnmun, I think it's up to me if I'm having a good experience or not. You do not speak for me, The CS I have recieved from LC has been excellent. Thank you.

 

[wildnrg]

I received my 24V 25AH LiFePO4 pack from Emma / Lau Chan today. It had a "LiFePO4.hk" label on the side.

I haven't yet fully tested it, however I did connect it to my bike on a bike stand and ran bike for about 10 mins.

I applied the brakes a few times to put some load. Cycle Analyst reported max amps 65A min volts 24V.

That's pretty much the same as my Cyclone 24V 10AH 10C pack, given that I think this pack is only 1 or 2C that wasn't bad, my motor is rated for 24A and should only draw 29A peak so the higher C's don't really matter for me (I think), I'll see this friday when I ride to work.

In terms of the physical build quality of the pack, I felt that this pack was better built than the Cyclone pack. The Cyclone pack is held together with clear packing tape and not that well taped together. The Lau Chan pack is wrapped in duct tape and it looks like alot more care was put into wrapping this pack. The box that it came in was very well padded with foam.

So far the only thing that I don't like is the charge has US plugs, whereas the Cyclone pack comes with IEC connector and an Australian/UK cable. The Lau chan charger seems a bit too light and plastic compared to the Cyclone charger with fan and metal casing and battery charge level indicator.

Price wise, the Lau Chan battery cost me half the price of the Cyclone battery, but its 25Ah compared to 10Ah Cyclone. It also weights 200grams less than 2 x 10Ah Cyclone batteries.

The big question that I can only answer after a few rides is does it output enough Amps under load and does it deliver 25Ah capacity (I'd settle for 20Ah for the price I paid).

Which leads me to my next question, I've haven't seen a 25Ah 24V pack for sale, have you? I've only seen 10Ah, 15Ah, and 20Ah.

 

[The Journey Guy]

I received my 24V 25AH LiFePO4 pack from Emma / Lau Chan today.

Yep, as I have said all along in this thread, they seem to have turned over a new leaf, and are being very above-board and honest!

Which leads me to my next question, I've haven't seen a 25Ah 24V pack for sale, have you? I've only seen 10Ah, 15Ah, and 20Ah.

I recall seeing a 25ah, a 30ah, and even a 40ah from them. Only problem is that I do not find any of their auctions at all lately. Maybe they are trying to find another account to use. I am still in the dark about why they change accounts so often. I have read in this thread that some believe the reason is because they are dishonest, but personally, I believe that there is another reason. Perhaps something to do with the fact that they use Ping's name in the description, or maybe it is another unknown reason. But I certainly do not believe that it's because they are ripping people off. Too many of us have gotten GREAT battery packs from then lately for that to be the case.

I still look for them to come back to eBay with other great deals on LifePo4 packs.

 

[wildnrg]

I rode to work today with the Lau Chan battery 25Ah 24V battery

Pedal+Motor for 17km, motor only for the last 7km. Used 10Ah all up, that's 3.5Ah more than last week where I pedal+motor all the way with a Cycline 10Ah 24V pacl.

I've noticed a few people claimed that Lau Chan batteries might not go the distance, well I can't comment yet, I didn't want to try to use all 25Ah on the first ride with it. On the way home I'll just use the motor all the way, it should comsume about 14-20Ah without me pedalling. Then we will see if I got what I paid for.

Peformance wise, I'm happy so far. I know that these cells are only 1-3C compared to the 10C on the Cyclone cells, but I've only got a 24V 500W motor, so it doesn't seem to be making much of a difference. If I had a 600W+ motor I'd need the extra Amps.

 

[wildnrg]

Ok, I rode home today 26km without pedaling at all (yes that was lazy). I had a full charge on the 24V 25Ah Lau Chan battery.

Overall I was happy with the performance. There were a couple of little things where the Lau Chan battery did not perform as well as the 24V 10Ah Cyclone battery pack.

1. Voltage sag as low as 17.5V according to the Cycle Analyst, Max Amps 61A on a couple of big hills doing 30kph without pedaling.
2. The Cycle Analyst lost power for an instant, it wasn't noticeable except the boot up message indicated a lost of power.

The BMS was very hot after the ride, the plastic cover strung like heat string (or maybe it was heat string).

Other than that I drew 15Ah from the pack, won't test to see how much of the 25Ah is usable just yet.

Overall Lau Chan pack isn't as good as Cyclone pack, it struggles to deliver more than 1C, with a 25Ah pack thats ok for a 24V 500W motor, but I'd doubt that a 10Ah Lau Chan pack would cut it, the Cylcone 10Ah pack easily delivered the same amperage which isn't surprising as its 10C rated.

My conclusion, at half the price of a 24V 10Ah Cyclone pack, the 24V 25Ah Lau Chan pack is a winner, it performs 95% of the Cyclone pack, but has over 2 x the endurance and 1/2 the cost.

I wouldn't recommended less than Lau Chan 20Ah pack as it might not be able to deliver the amperage.

 

[OneWayTraffic]

I'd have to say that the best packs for the average guy would be either a ebikes.ca LiFePO4 pack, or one of the EBikekit ones. More expensive of course, but all wired up, tested and comes with a mounting solution, either in the frame or on the rack. What more could the average Joe ask for. You save hundreds on a Ping or ebay pack but then you need to do all the troubleshooting and mounting stuff yourself. That's hardly a turnkey solution.

 

[Russell]

I'd have to say that the best packs for the average guy would be either a ebikes.ca LiFePO4 pack, or one of the EBikekit ones. More expensive of course, but all wired up, tested and comes with a mounting solution, either in the frame or on the rack. What more could the average Joe ask for. You save hundreds on a Ping or ebay pack but then you need to do all the troubleshooting and mounting stuff yourself. That's hardly a turnkey solution.

The one problem I have with the rack mounted batteries is they take up all of the rack space for just the battery. I prefer to place my battery in a rear trunk bag where I can also store all of the other stuff I take along when riding such as tool kit, spare tube, mini pump, personal items, snacks,etc. It's hardly a difficult thing to do.

-R

 

[The Journey Guy]

The one problem I have with the rack mounted batteries is they take up all of the rack space for just the battery. I prefer to place my battery in a rear trunk bag where I can also store all of the other stuff I take along when riding such as tool kit, spare tube, mini pump, personal items, snacks,etc. It's hardly a difficult thing to do.

-R

For me, I find that my bike handles better if I have the batteries as low down as possible. Lowering the center of gravity by mounting them as close as possible to the axles keeps the bike from feeling squirrelly on corners and in moderate to high winds. Of course, that also frees up my trunk bag for all the items you make mention of.

Also, and this may be just my take on things, but it seems with the batteries mounted low down, that the bike seems more stable when it's on the kickstand.

 

[Russell]

For me, I find that my bike handles better if I have the batteries as low down as possible. Lowering the center of gravity by mounting them as close as possible to the axles keeps the bike from feeling squirrelly on corners and in moderate to high winds. Of course, that also frees up my trunk bag for all the items you make mention of.

Also, and this may be just my take on things, but it seems with the batteries mounted low down, that the bike seems more stable when it's on the kickstand.

Yes that's true and I know there are people who carry big SLA's on top of the rear rack but when I had just (3) 9Ah SLA's back there the bike felt top heavy. My 7.5 lb Bosch pack however is barely noticeable on that same bike. My 11.5 lb LiFePO4 on the other bike is the most I want to carry on top, when the Topeak bag is loaded up with everything I take on a ride it weighs in at 17.5 lbs.

-R

 

[OneWayTraffic]

The one problem I have with the rack mounted batteries is they take up all of the rack space for just the battery. I prefer to place my battery in a rear trunk bag where I can also store all of the other stuff I take along when riding such as tool kit, spare tube, mini pump, personal items, snacks,etc. It's hardly a difficult thing to do.

-R

Well ebikes.ca are in frame so thats one thing, as for the rest, it's hardly more difficult to custom mount a premade battery than a ducttape/shrinkwrapped one.

I mainly wrote this response as I was a little surprised that a thread about batteries for 'the average guy' was mainly Headway/Ping/Lau Chan. The off the shelf solutions deserve an airing as well.

I'd really like to read a review of the ebikes.ca pack, but that may have to wait.

 

[The Journey Guy]

I mainly wrote this response as I was a little surprised that a thread about batteries for 'the average guy' was mainly Headway/Ping/Lau Chan. The off the shelf solutions deserve an airing as well.

When you say "off the shelf solutions", would you be more specific? Names, links, such as that? The reason I ask, is because as a relative newbie to high-end batteries, I was under the impression that the LifePo4 packs from Ping, Lau Chan, V-power, and the others are "off the shelf" solutions, because they are pre-assembled, have the BMS already in place, and come with an appropriate charger.

 

[OneWayTraffic]

www.ebikes.ca

www.ebikekit.com

I'm sure there's others. Both companies are well known and well respected on this forum. There's also WorldwideElectric bikes and HiTekbikes.

Off the shelf means plug and go. Both of the above batteries satisfy that. www.ebikekit.com kit has a very good review by Ypedal in the reviews forum.

Ping needs to be wired to your controller and you need to make sure that battery and motor and controller are matched. It also needs a case fabricated or a mounting solution found. It's not building up from bare cells, but it's not quite off the shelf either. More like a halfway house.