Lithium Titanate

K

knox1138

10 mW
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
20
Does anyone have access or have seen the new lithium titanate batteries? the have them at batteryspace now. The one's at batteryspace have low charge rates comparable to lipo4, but i've seen them with the capability of charging at the same rate they discharge. Thoughts? Comments?
 
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=titanate&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=-1&t=0&submit=Search

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=titanate&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=-1&t=0&submit=Search

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=titanate&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sk=t&sd=d&sr=topics&st=0&ch=-1&t=0&submit=Search
 
But not cheap...

I've been trying to get small volume pricing on this for a few months now, with nobody willing to give quotes on small orders.

However, I have noticed that finally, one manufacturer has a "no minimum order" policy, along with fixed pricing on Alibaba.

http://tkgjmy.en.alibaba.com/

1kw hour now is still worth about $1400, so I'm not going ahead with the order, but I expect pricing will fall.

(BTW, I never had considered running LTO for my bike. The energy density doesn't make it suitable. However, I was thinking that when I get an electric car, LTO would be fantastic as a booster pack (not temp sensitive, longer life than the car, etc) or as off-grid storage for my house and my parent's farm.)

So, my dream hasn't yet come true, but it's one step closer.
 
10k cycles :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: Thats REALLY huge, hope prices fall when my lifepo4 is dead, which might take a long while too haha
 
mateusleo said:
10k cycles :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: Thats REALLY huge, hope prices fall when my lifepo4 is dead, which might take a long while too haha
Click to expand...

Energy Density is 60-70wh/kg though. That means one kwh will be 14-16kg, compared with 9kg for LiFePo4, or 6kg for LiCo.

Unless you're building a fairly short range bike, are you sure you want that much weight?

I guess a battery that lasts 20 years, loses almost no capacity even at high temp, can be charged in 10 mins, doesn't need to be oversized to get a good discharge rate, and is very unlikely to catch fire does have its attraction though.
 
Sunder said:
1kw hour now is still worth about $1400, so I'm not going ahead with the order, but I expect pricing will fall.

(BTW, I never had considered running LTO for my bike. The energy density doesn't make it suitable. However, I was thinking that when I get an electric car, LTO would be fantastic as a booster pack (not temp sensitive, longer life than the car, etc) or as off-grid storage for my house and my parent's farm.)

So, my dream hasn't yet come true, but it's one step closer.
Click to expand...
I think you got to much energy built up on a single technology. This really sounds like another chemical ultracap tech there are a lot of chemical 10k cycle capacitors with similar energy density on the horizon.

Should be dubious of alibaba Chinese company coming out with this stuff first. A relative of mine imports large agri machinery by the container load. Even after doing it for years he still never gets what he orders. I checked out some of the gear and they sent him the smaller models of everything he paid for, deliberately, he just has to then sell them as the smaller model etc.
From last time I saw him I think its starting to drive me truly crazy. People complain about BMSbattery here but if he got BMSbattery service I think he would think he was in heaven.

I recon if you got those Lithium–titanate cells you might get luck and get baking soda packs, much better then getting flower packed cells.

I am holding my breath for Graphene (which I guess means I might die), once they iron out the issues there shouldn't be any annoying rare earth mineral shortages to make the stuff work or be very expensive etc. Apparently graphene can even be made synthetically or from Graphite which is a pretty common material.
Check out this article. Supercapacitors and Graphene Overtake Batteries
http://www.graphenetracker.com/supercapacitors-graphene-overtake-batteries-new-event/
I did see Graphene as the ultimate vaporware-technology but in the last few months the big companies and labs around the world are outing big breakthrough announcements so I think its time to think big. Its rumored Apples iPhone 6 or 7 is going to use graphene, Apple has had the balls to take new steps in tech now and then and make it mainstream so this might be another one.


[youtube]eOshOXcSkDA[/youtube]
 
TheBeastie said:
I recon if you got those Lithium–titanate cells you might get luck and get baking soda packs, much better then getting flower packed cells.
Click to expand...

Some of these guys have a 98%+ satisfaction rating over 5 years.

I went through a phase where 1 in 3 things I bought from Ebay was a scam. But on Alibaba, I've spent about $3k over about 25-30 deals, and not one has been been a scam.

Not saying that there aren't any. But the ones that are there are so damn obvious. 6 month old account, no feedback for 4 months, then suddenly, ~10 5 star feedback from accounts all created 6 months ago...

Anyway, I'm sitting on my hand for now, but will be keeping a tab on these again - probably closer to end of the year when I look at getting the electric car.
 
Joseph C. said:
Are they Toshiba Scib cells? If they are quality LTO cells they should last a lot longer than two decades.
Click to expand...

That was my impression as well, but most the Alibaba sellers were saying >20 years, so not to exaggerate the claim, that's all I said too.
 
Hmmmmmmm.................White powder in a cell???!!!!!! Are U sure that is flour? :twisted:
otherDoc
 
Sunder said:
TheBeastie said:
I recon if you got those Lithium–titanate cells you might get luck and get baking soda packs, much better then getting flower packed cells.
Click to expand...

Some of these guys have a 98%+ satisfaction rating over 5 years.

I went through a phase where 1 in 3 things I bought from Ebay was a scam. But on Alibaba, I've spent about $3k over about 25-30 deals, and not one has been been a scam.

Not saying that there aren't any. But the ones that are there are so damn obvious. 6 month old account, no feedback for 4 months, then suddenly, ~10 5 star feedback from accounts all created 6 months ago...

Anyway, I'm sitting on my hand for now, but will be keeping a tab on these again - probably closer to end of the year when I look at getting the electric car.
Click to expand...
Have ~ 10 deals on Alibaba and Aliexpress, only one went good (it was BMS battery first transaction), and one money back, rest has lost money (I just got nothing in return). And 31 purchases on eb-ay, 1 money return, rest as expected. I must be having very bad luck with Ali :D
 
By the way, the 15Ah packs are $36USD each. I messaged him.

I don't get why it's cheaper per Ah than the 20Ah and 75Ah packs, but there you go.
 
Sunder,
I hope it works out for you. Once it does, I'll be more than happy to buy a number of kwh's worth of batteries from you at less than $200/kwh plus shipping from the US to Costa Rica. If you can't make a profit at that kind of pricing, then forget even testing them. Elon Musk and Nissan have demonstrated that they "get it" and all that really matters is getting battery prices lower.

Of course we all want more energy and power density per kg, but electrics make sense with current battery tech as long as prices are below $200/kwh retail with plenty of markup from wholesale. Fools like A123 try to differentiate themselves based on battery tech, but it's really price that matters.
 
John in CR said:
Sunder,
I hope it works out for you. Once it does, I'll be more than happy to buy a number of kwh's worth of batteries from you at less than $200/kwh plus shipping from the US to Costa Rica. If you can't make a profit at that kind of pricing, then forget even testing them. Elon Musk and Nissan have demonstrated that they "get it" and all that really matters is getting battery prices lower.

Of course we all want more energy and power density per kg, but electrics make sense with current battery tech as long as prices are below $200/kwh retail with plenty of markup from wholesale. Fools like A123 try to differentiate themselves based on battery tech, but it's really price that matters.
Click to expand...

As I said, I'm waiting for the price to fall from $1400/kwh, but I don't think I'll need it to go down to $200/kwh before I try it. I'm generally willing to pay a bit more to be on the cutting edge, and destroy a few items pushing the limit than many of the people on this forum.

I think we'll need to see widespread use outside of consumers before we get any drastic price drops. Maybe if they're ever used in phones or tablets that can be charged in 10 minutes, or used in plugin hybrids or fully electric cars, with battery modules warranted to last the life of the car?
 
Hi
Has anyone experience of this cell chemistry they sound quite interesting from what I have heard. They use titanium oxide to coat the anode rather than carbon and supposedly have several advantages over most common lithium chemistries including Fast charge and discharge, up to 20,000 cycles and higher power densities.
I found some more info at http://www.ev-power.eu/LTO-Cells/?utm_source=HOMEPAGE&utm_medium=LTONews1&utm_campaign=LTO
Any comments would be welcomed.
 
LTO batteries have been around for years. You can buy them now and have been able to buy them for many years.
 
approx same energy density as NiMH... but great power and cycle life, calendar life should be great too.
 
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