Need help with a build

Joined
Apr 18, 2023
Messages
52
Location
California
I'm stuck and need help, I am trying to upgrade my bike I am looking to buy new 48v battery (what minium specs do I need)

I want to go 30 on throttle
25miles range
The bike and weight 300lbs
80% flat and 20% hills max grade 15%
Ride paved streets and trails light unpaved trial riding
My priorities are off the line torque 30 mph top speed, acceleration, efficiency electrons per hour

MTB style e-bike frame hardtail 140 mm rear drop outs

I need controller motor kit suggestions outside of GRIN which is the cost of a new bike. O am limited so where I can fit a controller, a Phaserunner would work but that puts me back into the Grin universe, I'm trying to get to 30 mph throttle only flat, good off the line performance and able to climb 6% hills sistanded I have a Bafang 350w now and it does not do hills well, Can any one suggest a kit I should be looking at? Kirbebike is non starter for me... Oh I'm trying to find one with solid black rim.. which seems to be a unicorn

Looking at GDR-19
 
You can try to run your 350 watt bafang at 1000 to 1500 watts which will give you 30 to 35mph. You will need a 48v or preferably 52v battery capable of delivering 40 amps at 20AH for 20 to 25 miles of range, coupled with a 35 amp KT controller.

If this setup kills your motor, then you can upgrade to a MXUS at a later date.

I have been running my 250 watt Bafang 10 turn hub motor at this level on my cruiser for the last couple of hundred miles and it’s doing fine so far, but I’m careful not to let the motor overheat.

There really is no such thing as a 250w, 350w or 500w Bafang hub motor. They are the same motor with different labels depending upon which market they are sold in.

There is however a difference in the number of turns with all hub motors and that makes a difference to torque and speed. But a lot of the sellers on Amazon and Alibaba don’t state the turn count, so you don’t know if you are buying a low speed high torque motor or high speed low torque motor. And it doesn’t just apply to Bafang motors. So this is where the likes of Grin and Kirby are useful. They speak English and understand all this stuff, so you can have a sensible conversation about your requirements instead of buying a motor directly from China and just hoping it’s suitable for your needs. The downside to all of this is the price you pay, they have to put a reasonable mark up otherwise they will go out of business.

MTBs are always a pain for controller and battery placement. I use a 52v BBSHD on my MTB because a mid drive is much more suitable for hill climbing and keeps the weight in the centre of the bike instead of on the back wheel. Also it has the advantage of an integrated controller.

That setup would give me 35mph top speed with an 11 tooth rear sprocket and 52 tooth chainring, although I don’t need that much top end for trail riding, so I use a bigger rear cassette and I’m considering using a smaller chainring. It’s also horrible to ride on the road because I’m using Magic Mary tyres.

And I also use a backpack battery to keep the weight off the frame.
 
Last edited:
Home > Tools > Motor Simulator

Welcome to latest release of our online ebike simulator, with many new features covered in this thread. Select your motor, controller, battery, and vehicle choices then hit Simulate. Click the mouse on the graph. Fool around, and if you have any questions please read the full explanation of the features in the FAQ text below.
 
And I also use a backpack battery to keep the weight off the frame.
The weight is still on the frame, unless maybe you have a hot air balloon attached to your backpack?:giggle:
 
The weight is still on the frame, unless maybe you have a hot air balloon attached to your backpack?:giggle:
Lol, you know exactly what I mean. I can chuck the bike around much easier without a battery bolted on to it.
 
You can try to run your 350 watt bafang at 1000 to 1500 watts which will give you 30 to 35mph. You will need a 48v or preferably 52v battery capable of delivering 40 amps at 20AH for 20 to 25 miles of range, coupled with a 35 amp KT controller.

If this setup kills your motor, then you can upgrade to a MXUS at a later date.

I have been running my 250 watt Bafang 10 turn hub motor at this level on my cruiser for the last couple of hundred miles and it’s doing fine so far, but I’m careful not to let the motor overheat.

There really is no such thing as a 250w, 350w or 500w Bafang hub motor. They are the same motor with different labels depending upon which market they are sold in.

There is however a difference in the number of turns with all hub motors and that makes a difference to torque and speed. But a lot of the sellers on Amazon and Alibaba don’t state the turn count, so you don’t know if you are buying a low speed high torque motor or high speed low torque motor. And it doesn’t just apply to Bafang motors. So this is where the likes of Grin and Kirby are useful. They speak English and understand all this stuff, so you can have a sensible conversation about your requirements instead of buying a motor directly from China and just hoping it’s suitable for your needs. The downside to all of this is the price you pay, they have to put a reasonable mark up otherwise they will go out of business.

MTBs are always a pain for controller and battery placement. I use a 52v BBSHD on my MTB because a mid drive is much more suitable for hill climbing and keeps the weight in the centre of the bike instead of on the back wheel. Also it has the advantage of an integrated controller.

That setup would give me 35mph top speed with an 11 tooth rear sprocket and 52 tooth chainring, although I don’t need that much top end for trail riding, so I use a bigger rear cassette and I’m considering using a smaller chainring. It’s also horrible to ride on the road because I’m using Magic Mary tyres.

And I also use a backpack battery to keep the weight off the frame.
Thanks for the thought full reply, I am going to use the 350 on my wives build so I will need a new motor regardless, now I'm trying to determine if I go with the MXUS GDR 19 geared the GMAC or the MXUS turbo 3 I'm willing to spring for the 52 V JUST need to figure out the motor, any thoughts?
 
Home > Tools > Motor Simulator

Welcome to latest release of our online ebike simulator, with many new features covered in this thread. Select your motor, controller, battery, and vehicle choices then hit Simulate. Click the mouse on the graph. Fool around, and if you have any questions please read the full explanation of the features in the FAQ text below.
I have used it on what they have listed the challenge is the MXUS motors
 
I'm stuck and need help, I am trying to upgrade my bike I am looking to buy new 48v battery (what minium specs do I need)

I want to go 30 on throttle
25miles range
The bike and weight 300lbs
80% flat and 20% hills max grade 15%
Ride paved streets and trails light unpaved trial riding
My priorities are off the line torque 30 mph top speed, acceleration, efficiency electrons per hour

15% is pretty steep, and will take a lot of power. Doing it at those speeds takes a lot more power, and the total weight increases it.

If your priorities are listed in the order they are important to you, first one most important, etc., then keep in mind that "off the line torque" and "acceleration" are generated by the same things (really *are* the same), so you'll want to decide which place they take--first, or third.

If efficiency (wh/mile) is least important to you, that's good because to get quick acceleration and high speed especially with steep hills, it's not going to be a very efficient system (15-25% or more wasted power, at least, in various conditions).

If efficiency is more important to you then you might want to consider aerodynamically streamlining the bike (and your riding position), which will decrease power usage.

You can also use a middrive that you can shift gears for (just like when you pedal, and usually these actually use your pedalling gears for that reason), so you can keep the motor in the more efficient range for the conditions and speed you're trying to go. Setup the gearing and motor system so that the fastest the motor can go is your 30mph top speed or a bit more (to account for headwinds) on the lowest gear you will need to use to climb the worst-case hill with whatever power limit you have (depends on which motor, battery, controller you use).


A quick simulation with the ebikes.ca motor simulator for 15% hill at 30mph with 300lbs rider + bike/etc for a hubmotor system
shows you need roughly a 100A-battery-current system (for some margin of higher occasional loads, like headwinds, etc). I could only get it to work with 72v, not 48v, but you might find a motor/controller/battery setup capable of those speeds at those power levels at a lower voltage and higher current.
Numbers from the simulation are listed below, but basically at 30mph on 15% slope, 72v battery, cromotor with statorade and hubsinks, it takes over 5kw from the battery, nearly 4kw at the motor, less than 75% efficiency (so a lot of waste heat, which means sustaining this will overheat the motor relatively quickly). The math in all of my notes here is rounded off for simplicity, and everything assumes worst case (because if you want a system that can reliably do a job, always set it up for worst case scenario, and then it can always do what you actually throw at it).

5200w / 72v = 72A sustained (continuous) battery current required.

172Wh/mile is very high power usage, and requires a large battery for range. Since you're only using this for about 20% hills, we'll do 0.2 x 25 miles range total at 172Wh/mile, so 0.2 x 25 = 5 miles x 172wh/mile = 860wh required for those hills, if they were all 15% and ridden at 30mph.

GraphSyst A
Wheel Torq93.3Nm
Mtr Power3824W
Load3830W
Efficiency73.2%
RPM391.3 rpm


ElectricalSyst A
Mtr Amps95.0A
Batt Power5221W
Batt Amps80.7A
Batt Volts64.7V








PerformanceSyst A
Acceleration-0.01 mph/s
Consumption171.5 Wh/mi
Range8.5 mi
Overheat In8.7 minutes
Final Temp>250 °C


Riding on the flats at 30mph is much easier and only takes about 1200w battery power, and about 1000w motor power, only eating up about 40 Wh/mi.

So for the 80% of the 25 miles you'll ride on the flats, then it'll be about 20 x 40wh/mile, or only another 800wh to get the range you want.

Rounding up the other number to 900wh, plus this 800wh, means roughly, rounded up (because you don't want only the exact amount, you always want more than you need so aging and / or poor conditions, etc don't eat into your range as much), a 2kwh battery to get the range you need. At 72v, that's 2000 / 72 = 27Ah. At 48v, that's 2000 / 48 = 42Ah.

Either way, it's a pretty big and heavy battery. Most likely it will be over 20lbs, probably closer to 30-35lbs. Volume, shape and actual weight will depend on the cell type you choose to use, and the quality of the cells (lower quality (cheaper) will mean more cells, more weight, more volume, to get the same capacity and current delivery.

Note that if you were estimating a smaller battery with less weight in your total system weight estimate, you would want to resimulate using the higher weight of the battery needed to do what you want, because that will increase power requirements to climb the hill, and also the wh/mile on the non-flat portions. Also increases accleration requirements for the same reason as the hill.

GraphSyst A
Wheel Torq25.7Nm
Mtr Power1043W
Load1051W
Efficiency85.8%
RPM387.8 rpm


ElectricalSyst A
Mtr Amps27.0A
Batt Power1215W
Batt Amps16.5A
Batt Volts73.7V


PerformanceSyst A
Acceleration-0.01 mph/s
Consumption40.3 Wh/mi
Range41 mi
Overheat Innever
Final Temp42 °C


limited so where I can fit a controller, a Phaserunner would work but that puts me back into the Grin universe, I'm trying to get to 30 mph throttle only flat, good off the line performance and able to climb 6% hills sistanded
This is different from your first paragraph's requirements. Is it just a refinement of those, or something else?

I ask because how fast you need to go up a hill, and how steep the hill is, greatly affects the power needs of your system. Play with the simulator linked above to see what I mean--just use the existing simulation and change the slope and speed (drag the vertical speed line left or right) to see what guesstimated power requirements are for various numbers.

It also greatly affects the wh/mile, which tells you how big your battery has to be to give you the range you need.

You can also read the instructions on using hte simulator for middrives, and figure out how much less power you may need or how much more efficient it may be at that power level for various gearings.

Oh I'm trying to find one with solid black rim.. which seems to be a unicorn

For the rim, you could lace your own wheel, if you're up for learning how (this is not too difficult, but does take some practice; there are a lot of resources here and elsewhere on this if you're interested). You'll also probalby end up with a better wheel than the ones motors are usually built into (most prebuilt motor wheels use spokes too thick for the rims they have, which can cause the rims to fail from overtension or the spokes to break from undertension, or both).
 
I'm stuck and need help, I am trying to upgrade my bike I am looking to buy new 48v battery (what minium specs do I need)

I want to go 30 on throttle
25miles range
The bike and weight 300lbs
80% flat and 20% hills max grade 15%
Ride paved streets and trails light unpaved trial riding
My priorities are off the line torque 30 mph top speed, acceleration, efficiency electrons per hour

MTB style e-bike frame hardtail 140 mm rear drop outs

I need controller motor kit suggestions outside of GRIN which is the cost of a new bike. O am limited so where I can fit a controller, a Phaserunner would work but that puts me back into the Grin universe, I'm trying to get to 30 mph throttle only flat, good off the line performance and able to climb 6% hills sistanded I have a Bafang 350w now and it does not do hills well, Can any one suggest a kit I should be looking at? Kirbebike is non starter for me... Oh I'm trying to find one with solid black rim.. which seems to be a unicorn

Looking at GDR-19
Are you planning on pedaling at all or only using throttle? For the hills, how fast are you going to climb, 30 mph, 20 mph? Those things will determine what kind of power you need. I use around 4.5kW climbing 20% with light pedaling at 20 mph, 270 lbs total weight. That seems like the ideal climbing speed, where I can contribute a little, and to keep the temps in check.
I recorded some data last week (literally, GoPro recording my Cycle Analyst) while testing my battery pack's voltage sag, riding up my test hill, that may provide some data points. At 30 mph, it took the same 4.5kW to climb 15%. For 17%-18% the motor is pulling 6kW. Unfortunately my undersized breaker popped when I started rolling on the throttle to check the sag at 35 mph, but I'm guessing it would take over 7kW to maintain that speed.
You should determine what a reasonable climbing speed is that meets your needs, which will tell you your power requirements first. After that, the rest of the specs like range and speed on flat ground or 6% are simple math.
 
Are you planning on pedaling at all or only using throttle? For the hills, how fast are you going to climb, 30 mph, 20 mph? Those things will determine what kind of power you need. I use around 4.5kW climbing 20% with light pedaling at 20 mph, 270 lbs total weight. That seems like the ideal climbing speed, where I can contribute a little, and to keep the temps in check.
I recorded some data last week (literally, GoPro recording my Cycle Analyst) while testing my battery pack's voltage sag, riding up my test hill, that may provide some data points. At 30 mph, it took the same 4.5kW to climb 15%. For 17%-18% the motor is pulling 6kW. Unfortunately my undersized breaker popped when I started rolling on the throttle to check the sag at 35 mph, but I'm guessing it would take over 7kW to maintain that speed.
You should determine what a reasonable climbing speed is that meets your needs, which will tell you your power requirements first. After that, the rest of the specs like range and speed on flat ground or 6% are simple math.
Ideally I would like to do 20 mph on a 15% grade total weight is 300 lbs
 
Ideally I would like to do 20 mph on a 15% grade total weight is 300 lbs
The 8T GMAC can do 31 mph on flat ground running on 52V. For it to do 15% at 20 mph, you need 70 amps but since it can't shed heat, will melt down in 3 minutes:

If you need to climb >15% hills, your need to be able to shed heat, so most geared motors are out unless it's a very short climb.
 
I want my bicycle to do motorcycle stuff. And I want a pony.
 
15% is pretty steep, and will take a lot of power. Doing it at those speeds takes a lot more power, and the total weight increases it.

If your priorities are listed in the order they are important to you, first one most important, etc., then keep in mind that "off the line torque" and "acceleration" are generated by the same things (really *are* the same), so you'll want to decide which place they take--first, or third.

If efficiency (wh/mile) is least important to you, that's good because to get quick acceleration and high speed especially with steep hills, it's not going to be a very efficient system (15-25% or more wasted power, at least, in various conditions).

If efficiency is more important to you then you might want to consider aerodynamically streamlining the bike (and your riding position), which will decrease power usage.

You can also use a middrive that you can shift gears for (just like when you pedal, and usually these actually use your pedalling gears for that reason), so you can keep the motor in the more efficient range for the conditions and speed you're trying to go. Setup the gearing and motor system so that the fastest the motor can go is your 30mph top speed or a bit more (to account for headwinds) on the lowest gear you will need to use to climb the worst-case hill with whatever power limit you have (depends on which motor, battery, controller you use).


A quick simulation with the ebikes.ca motor simulator for 15% hill at 30mph with 300lbs rider + bike/etc for a hubmotor system
shows you need roughly a 100A-battery-current system (for some margin of higher occasional loads, like headwinds, etc). I could only get it to work with 72v, not 48v, but you might find a motor/controller/battery setup capable of those speeds at those power levels at a lower voltage and higher current.
Numbers from the simulation are listed below, but basically at 30mph on 15% slope, 72v battery, cromotor with statorade and hubsinks, it takes over 5kw from the battery, nearly 4kw at the motor, less than 75% efficiency (so a lot of waste heat, which means sustaining this will overheat the motor relatively quickly). The math in all of my notes here is rounded off for simplicity, and everything assumes worst case (because if you want a system that can reliably do a job, always set it up for worst case scenario, and then it can always do what you actually throw at it).

5200w / 72v = 72A sustained (continuous) battery current required.

172Wh/mile is very high power usage, and requires a large battery for range. Since you're only using this for about 20% hills, we'll do 0.2 x 25 miles range total at 172Wh/mile, so 0.2 x 25 = 5 miles x 172wh/mile = 860wh required for those hills, if they were all 15% and ridden at 30mph.

GraphSyst A
Wheel Torq93.3Nm
Mtr Power3824W
Load3830W
Efficiency73.2%
RPM391.3 rpm


ElectricalSyst A
Mtr Amps95.0A
Batt Power5221W
Batt Amps80.7A
Batt Volts64.7V








PerformanceSyst A
Acceleration-0.01 mph/s
Consumption171.5 Wh/mi
Range8.5 mi
Overheat In8.7 minutes
Final Temp>250 °C


Riding on the flats at 30mph is much easier and only takes about 1200w battery power, and about 1000w motor power, only eating up about 40 Wh/mi.

So for the 80% of the 25 miles you'll ride on the flats, then it'll be about 20 x 40wh/mile, or only another 800wh to get the range you want.

Rounding up the other number to 900wh, plus this 800wh, means roughly, rounded up (because you don't want only the exact amount, you always want more than you need so aging and / or poor conditions, etc don't eat into your range as much), a 2kwh battery to get the range you need. At 72v, that's 2000 / 72 = 27Ah. At 48v, that's 2000 / 48 = 42Ah.

Either way, it's a pretty big and heavy battery. Most likely it will be over 20lbs, probably closer to 30-35lbs. Volume, shape and actual weight will depend on the cell type you choose to use, and the quality of the cells (lower quality (cheaper) will mean more cells, more weight, more volume, to get the same capacity and current delivery.

Note that if you were estimating a smaller battery with less weight in your total system weight estimate, you would want to resimulate using the higher weight of the battery needed to do what you want, because that will increase power requirements to climb the hill, and also the wh/mile on the non-flat portions. Also increases accleration requirements for the same reason as the hill.

GraphSyst A
Wheel Torq25.7Nm
Mtr Power1043W
Load1051W
Efficiency85.8%
RPM387.8 rpm


ElectricalSyst A
Mtr Amps27.0A
Batt Power1215W
Batt Amps16.5A
Batt Volts73.7V


PerformanceSyst A
Acceleration-0.01 mph/s
Consumption40.3 Wh/mi
Range41 mi
Overheat Innever
Final Temp42 °C



This is different from your first paragraph's requirements. Is it just a refinement of those, or something else?

I ask because how fast you need to go up a hill, and how steep the hill is, greatly affects the power needs of your system. Play with the simulator linked above to see what I mean--just use the existing simulation and change the slope and speed (drag the vertical speed line left or right) to see what guesstimated power requirements are for various numbers.

It also greatly affects the wh/mile, which tells you how big your battery has to be to give you the range you need.

You can also read the instructions on using hte simulator for middrives, and figure out how much less power you may need or how much more efficient it may be at that power level for various gearings.



For the rim, you could lace your own wheel, if you're up for learning how (this is not too difficult, but does take some practice; there are a lot of resources here and elsewhere on this if you're interested). You'll also probalby end up with a better wheel than the ones motors are usually built into (most prebuilt motor wheels use spokes too thick for the rims they have, which can cause the rims to fail from overtension or the spokes to break from undertension, or both).
Wow, that was alot of information and effort, thank you, I played with the motor simulator for quite some time hours to be honest, the biggest challenge is knowing the values to put in for the different Motors that I'm considering being that I can't get the information on the specific Motors to input into the simulator. Your efforts have reset my needs and expectations, the 15 to 20% grade Hill I'm speaking of is probably 500 ft total length at any given point and specific time so it's not sustained, not like I'm touring up the back of a mountain, and would never paddle. Also there are variations in the grade. So I don't know that I would need six and a half to seven minutes sustained power usage. Also I think that coming back down the hill there would be some regenerative aspects to putting power back into the battery is that not correct? I wouldn't build a pack that was more than 10 lb of weight and I wouldn't put a motor on the the bike that was more than 14 lb in weight so so I think those factors would limit the ultimate performance of the system. It sounds like if hill performance is most important direct drive with statorade is going to be requirement, at this point I'm just trying to figure out which components I should be considering, a minimum of X Watts for a direct drive motor or could I use a geared hub. Which would be better. Which controller should I be looking at, I'm speaking specifically of make model and specifications. At minimum what size battery am I going to need. Those are the kind of questions that I have and the type of information I'm hoping to get. I know most people on this form are not comfortable making specific product recommendations but that's what I'm looking for. Thank you so much for all of your help, keep writing and we all appreciate the amazing support that you provide
 
The 8T GMAC can do 31 mph on flat ground running on 52V. For it to do 15% at 20 mph, you need 70 amps but since it can't shed heat, will melt down in 3 minutes:

If you need to climb >15% hills, your need to be able to shed heat, so most geared motors are out unless it's a very short climb.
I pretty much have landed on either the GDR 19 (need a controller option the RH212 with phase runner or an eBay DD kit, maybe the Turbo 3?
 
Wow, that was alot of information and effort, thank you, I played with the motor simulator for quite some time hours to be honest, the biggest challenge is knowing the values to put in for the different Motors that I'm considering being that I can't get the information on the specific Motors to input into the simulator. Your efforts have reset my needs and expectations, the 15 to 20% grade Hill I'm speaking of is probably 500 ft total length at any given point and specific time so it's not sustained, not like I'm touring up the back of a mountain, and would never paddle. Also there are variations in the grade. So I don't know that I would need six and a half to seven minutes sustained power usage.

You can estimate the time needed on any particular stretch by riding it unassisted (or with whatever assist you may already have), keeping track of your speed at all times trying to keep it constant (even if very low) and of exactly how long it takes to complete that stretch. (there are phone apps that can help with this, I think one of them is called Strava or similar).

Then you can use that info to determine how long it will take at a higher speed. Then you can use that speed and time to see if the system you want to use can do the job.

Grin also has a Trip Simulator to help out with this, once you have the complete route data.


Also I think that coming back down the hill there would be some regenerative aspects to putting power back into the battery is that not correct?

That depends on the motor, controller, and battery.

If you use a common-port BMS with a system that does regen, the battery can turn off to protect itself against overcharge in the event that the battery is nearly full when regen starts and fills back up (a rare case, and is dependent on your specific riding circumstances, so you have to figure out if this could happen). However, note that if the battery does turn off during regen, it can blow up the controller's FETs because the voltage will suddenly and rapidly increase as soon as the battery disconnects itself. So using a BMS with a separate charge port won't protect the battery against regen overcharge, but it also won't (usually) turn off during regen. Some controllers won't do regen above a certain preset voltage, specifically to prevent battery damage in this event, or controller damage if the battery disconnects.

Typical controllers only do on/off regen, at some preset current level, for some preset range of motor speeds.

If you are coasting down the hill (no driving of the motor) at enough of a faster speed than the fastest speed your system could normally drive you at, the motor may be generating such a high voltage that the controller is "overridden" and current flows back into the battery via the body diodes of the phase FETs, like a 3-phase rectifier. This can heat up the controller significantly, and if the battery has no protections (separate charge/discharge ports) can allow a nearly full battery to overcharge, or the BMS to be damaged by the current or voltage, etc.

Regen only works with DD hubmotors, so if you want a geared motor for lighter weight (greater power/weight ratio, higher torque from a stop for the same battery current, etc), you don't get regen, *except* with the very few (two?) clutchless geared hubs like the GMAC from Grin (I forget the other one's name).

There are probably other considerations I forgot to post about.


I wouldn't build a pack that was more than 10 lb of weight and I wouldn't put a motor on the the bike that was more than 14 lb in weight so so I think those factors would limit the ultimate performance of the system. It sounds like if hill performance is most important direct drive with statorade is going to be requirement, at this point I'm just trying to figure out which components I should be considering, a minimum of X Watts for a direct drive motor or could I use a geared hub. Which would be better.

It's always a set of tradeoffs, so you have to prioritize which parts of the job your bike has to do for you are more important.

If system weight is more important, then geared hubs are lighter for their performance. But they overheat more easily under than a DD under sustained adverse conditions. As long as those conditions don't last long or happen often, that's not an issue.

There are other advantages and disadvantages of each as well; DD hubs can be silent with the right controller driving them, the geared hubs will always have some noise from the gearing itself. Etc.

A middrive thru your pedal gearing would give you even better power-to-weight than a hubmotor, but it will cost more and require more maintenance (regular chain and sprocket/chainring replacments) , and you will have to setup the gearing correctly for the riding conditions you have, and always have to shift the gears correctly for each riding condition change, starts and stops, etc.


Which controller should I be looking at, I'm speaking specifically of make model and specifications.
This depends on the specific features you want from the controller, as there are literally hundreds of thousands of them out there, each with their own set of thigns they can and can't do.

It also depends on the actual power levels you need, and the system voltage you choose.


At minimum what size battery am I going to need.
That depends on all the other things above.


Those are the kind of questions that I have and the type of information I'm hoping to get. I know most people on this form are not comfortable making specific product recommendations but that's what I'm looking for. Thank you so much for all of your help, keep writing and we all appreciate the amazing support that you provide


It's not about comfort, it is about required information. If you don't have specific info about exactly what you need, any recommendations made could be completely inappropriate, either not doing the job you need htem to or missing features you require (or just want). So far you have some requirements stated, but others aren't clear or fully fleshed out, etc.

If you just want a list of parts that will be guaranteed to do the worst-case parts of the job, we can do that, but they probably won't fit your weight and size limits. (I actually don't know for sure that you can get a battery the size you want that will still do the job you want with the range you want, given the info we have so far).


Designing a good reliable build is a process. You can either do this process in the design stage (now), or you can build a system and test it, then discard the parts that didn't work out and buy new ones. Retest and replace as needed until it does what you want. It's much more expensive, though. Or you can build one that can easily do the worst case parts and then start reducing parts until it just barely does the job. (also expensive). Or you can guesstimate parts of the requirements and then buy stuff that fits those, then retest and replace as needed....

Mostly I have done it that last half and half way--guesstimating the power usage and capacity, then trying things until it all does what I want...but I'm almost always using used parts or even broken ones I have to fix first, so it's a lot cheaper than doing it with new parts. ;) But I don't have ot deal with hills, just start/stop traffic (similar to a lot of extremely short steep hills as far as acceleration/torque, especially since mine are heavy cargo bikes/trikes like the SB Cruiser and CrazyBike2).
 
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You can estimate the time needed on any particular stretch by riding it unassisted (or with whatever assist you may already have), keeping track of your speed at all times trying to keep it constant (even if very low) and of exactly how long it takes to complete that stretch. (there are phone apps that can help with this, I think one of them is called Strava or similar).

Then you can use that info to determine how long it will take at a higher speed. Then you can use that speed and time to see if the system you want to use can do the job.

Grin also has a Trip Simulator to help out with this, once you have the complete route data.




That depends on the motor, controller, and battery.

If you use a common-port BMS with a system that does regen, the battery can turn off to protect itself against overcharge in the event that the battery is nearly full when regen starts and fills back up (a rare case, and is dependent on your specific riding circumstances, so you have to figure out if this could happen). However, note that if the battery does turn off during regen, it can blow up the controller's FETs because the voltage will suddenly and rapidly increase as soon as the battery disconnects itself. So using a BMS with a separate charge port won't protect the battery against regen overcharge, but it also won't (usually) turn off during regen. Some controllers won't do regen above a certain preset voltage, specifically to prevent battery damage in this event, or controller damage if the battery disconnects.

Typical controllers only do on/off regen, at some preset current level, for some preset range of motor speeds.

If you are coasting down the hill (no driving of the motor) at enough of a faster speed than the fastest speed your system could normally drive you at, the motor may be generating such a high voltage that the controller is "overridden" and current flows back into the battery via the body diodes of the phase FETs, like a 3-phase rectifier. This can heat up the controller significantly, and if the battery has no protections (separate charge/discharge ports) can allow a nearly full battery to overcharge, or the BMS to be damaged by the current or voltage, etc.

Regen only works with DD hubmotors, so if you want a geared motor for lighter weight (greater power/weight ratio, higher torque from a stop for the same battery current, etc), you don't get regen, *except* with the very few (two?) clutchless geared hubs like the GMAC from Grin (I forget the other one's name).

There are probably other considerations I forgot to post about.




It's always a set of tradeoffs, so you have to prioritize which parts of the job your bike has to do for you are more important.

If system weight is more important, then geared hubs are lighter for their performance. But they overheat more easily under than a DD under sustained adverse conditions. As long as those conditions don't last long or happen often, that's not an issue.

There are other advantages and disadvantages of each as well; DD hubs can be silent with the right controller driving them, the geared hubs will always have some noise from the gearing itself. Etc.

A middrive thru your pedal gearing would give you even better power-to-weight than a hubmotor, but it will cost more and require more maintenance (regular chain and sprocket/chainring replacments) , and you will have to setup the gearing correctly for the riding conditions you have, and always have to shift the gears correctly for each riding condition change, starts and stops, etc.



This depends on the specific features you want from the controller, as there are literally hundreds of thousands of them out there, each with their own set of thigns they can and can't do.

It also depends on the actual power levels you need, and the system voltage you choose.



That depends on all the other things above.





It's not about comfort, it is about required information. If you don't have specific info about exactly what you need, any recommendations made could be completely inappropriate, either not doing the job you need htem to or missing features you require (or just want). So far you have some requirements stated, but others aren't clear or fully fleshed out, etc.

If you just want a list of parts that will be guaranteed to do the worst-case parts of the job, we can do that, but they probably won't fit your weight and size limits. (I actually don't know for sure that you can get a battery the size you want that will still do the job you want with the range you want, given the info we have so far).


Designing a good reliable build is a process. You can either do this process in the design stage (now), or you can build a system and test it, then discard the parts that didn't work out and buy new ones. Retest and replace as needed until it does what you want. It's much more expensive, though. Or you can build one that can easily do the worst case parts and then start reducing parts until it just barely does the job. (also expensive). Or you can guesstimate parts of the requirements and then buy stuff that fits those, then retest and replace as needed....

Mostly I have done it that last half and half way--guesstimating the power usage and capacity, then trying things until it all does what I want...but I'm almost always using used parts or even broken ones I have to fix first, so it's a lot cheaper than doing it with new parts. ;) But I don't have ot deal with hills, just start/stop traffic (similar to a lot of extremely short steep hills as far as acceleration/torque, especially since mine are heavy cargo bikes/trikes like the SB Cruiser and CrazyBike2).

You can estimate the time needed on any particular stretch by riding it unassisted (or with whatever assist you may already have), keeping track of your speed at all times trying to keep it constant (even if very low) and of exactly how long it takes to complete that stretch. (there are phone apps that can help with this, I think one of them is called Strava or similar).

Then you can use that info to determine how long it will take at a higher speed. Then you can use that speed and time to see if the system you want to use can do the job.

Grin also has a Trip Simulator to help out with this, once you have the complete route data.




That depends on the motor, controller, and battery.

If you use a common-port BMS with a system that does regen, the battery can turn off to protect itself against overcharge in the event that the battery is nearly full when regen starts and fills back up (a rare case, and is dependent on your specific riding circumstances, so you have to figure out if this could happen). However, note that if the battery does turn off during regen, it can blow up the controller's FETs because the voltage will suddenly and rapidly increase as soon as the battery disconnects itself. So using a BMS with a separate charge port won't protect the battery against regen overcharge, but it also won't (usually) turn off during regen. Some controllers won't do regen above a certain preset voltage, specifically to prevent battery damage in this event, or controller damage if the battery disconnects.

Typical controllers only do on/off regen, at some preset current level, for some preset range of motor speeds.

If you are coasting down the hill (no driving of the motor) at enough of a faster speed than the fastest speed your system could normally drive you at, the motor may be generating such a high voltage that the controller is "overridden" and current flows back into the battery via the body diodes of the phase FETs, like a 3-phase rectifier. This can heat up the controller significantly, and if the battery has no protections (separate charge/discharge ports) can allow a nearly full battery to overcharge, or the BMS to be damaged by the current or voltage, etc.

Regen only works with DD hubmotors, so if you want a geared motor for lighter weight (greater power/weight ratio, higher torque from a stop for the same battery current, etc), you don't get regen, *except* with the very few (two?) clutchless geared hubs like the GMAC from Grin (I forget the other one's name).

There are probably other considerations I forgot to post about.




It's always a set of tradeoffs, so you have to prioritize which parts of the job your bike has to do for you are more important.

If system weight is more important, then geared hubs are lighter for their performance. But they overheat more easily under than a DD under sustained adverse conditions. As long as those conditions don't last long or happen often, that's not an issue.

There are other advantages and disadvantages of each as well; DD hubs can be silent with the right controller driving them, the geared hubs will always have some noise from the gearing itself. Etc.

A middrive thru your pedal gearing would give you even better power-to-weight than a hubmotor, but it will cost more and require more maintenance (regular chain and sprocket/chainring replacments) , and you will have to setup the gearing correctly for the riding conditions you have, and always have to shift the gears correctly for each riding condition change, starts and stops, etc.



This depends on the specific features you want from the controller, as there are literally hundreds of thousands of them out there, each with their own set of thigns they can and can't do.

It also depends on the actual power levels you need, and the system voltage you choose.



That depends on all the other things above.





It's not about comfort, it is about required information. If you don't have specific info about exactly what you need, any recommendations made could be completely inappropriate, either not doing the job you need htem to or missing features you require (or just want). So far you have some requirements stated, but others aren't clear or fully fleshed out, etc.

If you just want a list of parts that will be guaranteed to do the worst-case parts of the job, we can do that, but they probably won't fit your weight and size limits. (I actually don't know for sure that you can get a battery the size you want that will still do the job you want with the range you want, given the info we have so far).


Designing a good reliable build is a process. You can either do this process in the design stage (now), or you can build a system and test it, then discard the parts that didn't work out and buy new ones. Retest and replace as needed until it does what you want. It's much more expensive, though. Or you can build one that can easily do the worst case parts and then start reducing parts until it just barely does the job. (also expensive). Or you can guesstimate parts of the requirements and then buy stuff that fits those, then retest and replace as needed....

Mostly I have done it that last half and half way--guesstimating the power usage and capacity, then trying things until it all does what I want...but I'm almost always using used parts or even broken ones I have to fix first, so it's a lot cheaper than doing it with new parts. ;) But I don't have ot deal with hills, just start/stop traffic (similar to a lot of extremely short steep hills as far as acceleration/torque, especially since mine are heavy cargo bikes/trikes like the SB Cruiser and CrazyBike2).

Thank you kindly for your response. I must say that I appreciate your valid points. I did my best to present a lucid list of wants and needs for this project to ensure careful planning. It is my sincere desire to avoid procuring products that will not yield the desired outcome. I do understand that this is not an exact science and that there may be a subjective element to it. However, I am in search of practical product advice as a means of resolving this issue.

Below are the data points we are working with
  • Donor Bike
  • 27.5 x 2.25 inch knobby tires
  • 140 MM rear dropouts
  • Total weight Rider and bike 303 lbs
  • Total weight of battery and kit not to exceed 28 lbs
  • 46 T chainring
  • 21 Speed

Derised performance
  • Top speed 28 to 31 MPH at full charge
  • Range 21 miles throttle only 35 plus with PAS level 2
  • Ability to traverse 10% grades sustained for 4 mins or 1 mile @15 mph without damaging the components
  • High torque from a stop and sustained pulling until max speed a meet

Priorties
  1. Not a fire hazard :eek:🧑‍🚒🚒🧯
  2. Top speed
  3. Ease of use and install/No sodering or modifying wiring (On a scale of ease, plug and play would be a 10. However, reprogramming each value can be challenging.)
  4. Easy to connect wires (Juliet connections) and as water proof as possible/reasonable
  5. Torque
  6. Hill climbing🚵‍♀️
  7. Kit weight
  8. Smoothness of power delivery
  9. Noise
  10. Will work with lighting kits (plug and play
Budget
  • $700 to $1200 with Battery
 
Derised performance
  • High torque from a stop and sustained pulling until max speed a meet
Budget
  • $700 to $1200 with Battery
This isn't a characteristic of electric motors. If you look a the simulator's blue curve, you can see the torque curve only goes down, not up like an ICE. Torque provides acceleration. If you want acceleration that you can feel up to 30 mph (not just watching the speedometer creep up), you need to build a bike that goes 40+ mph, which will blow through your budget, if you want to meet the other requirements. A 30 mph bike will accelerate nicely to 20 mph, but after 25 mph you won't really feel it.
 
This isn't a characteristic of electric motors. If you look a the simulator's blue curve, you can see the torque curve only goes down, not up like an ICE. Torque provides acceleration. If you want acceleration that you can feel up to 30 mph (not just watching the speedometer creep up), you need to build a bike that goes 40+ mph, which will blow through your budget, if you want to meet the other requirements. A 30 mph bike will accelerate nicely to 20 mph, but after 25 mph you won't really feel it.
This isn't a characteristic of electric motors. If you look a the simulator's blue curve, you can see the torque curve only goes down, not up like an ICE. Torque provides acceleration. If you want acceleration that you can feel up to 30 mph (not just watching the speedometer creep up), you need to build a bike that goes 40+ mph, which will blow through your budget, if you want to meet the other requirements. A 30 mph bike will accelerate nicely to 20 mph, but after 25 mph you won't really feel it.
Im glad to hear that 9 out of 10 of my stated goals can be met, do you have and product recommendations?
 
Where do you live in California 20% Hill is pretty steep 15% hill is pretty steep. Those hills seem like San Francisco. Can you give us the name of the street with the 20% Hill and city it's in.
 
Im glad to hear that 9 out of 10 of my stated goals can be met, do you have and product recommendations?
Nope. I mean meeting the rest of the performance requirements within that budget. That stuff about the connectors and plug and play isn't something I pay attention to when looking at components so I can't help with that, but hopefully other folks can.
 
Because when most people talk about percentage of hills they miss guess it is not as stupid as you think.
Hills and the weight of your load make a big difference to what motor you should have it's to answer your question with education.
 
Because when most people talk about percentage of hills they miss guess it is not as stupid as you think.
Hills and the weight of your load make a big difference to what motor you should have it's to answer your question with education.
I did not say anything or anyone is stupid, I just wanted a product req, the hill starts at 10.4 then goes to 13.7 then to 17.8 for 4.2 miles the total ascension is 3723 ft
 
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