OOPS, I bought another bike ... shaft drive

[LewTwo]

Dang it, I bought another bike ... must be some kind of a disease.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002AHSPHG

The unique feature of this bike is the chainless shaft drive. I had a similar bike years ago that came to bad end (high speed, big pothole) and have regretted not having kept the frame ever since. As far as I know this is the only shaft drive bicycle still sold in the United States. Then Amazon had the audacity to drop the PRIME price from $372 to $213 (price went up to $244 after I ordered one). Ouch ... I ordered it.

Obviously mid drive is out of the question. As I tend to avoid suspension forks like the plague, I know nothing about the RST Trendy fork. I would like to move my Golden Motors Smart Pie (Version 4) over to it, but I may have to find a vintage replacement fork first. I would appreciate any information from anyone that has experience with this fork.

I also have no idea what the frame size is (Amazon tends to leave these little nit picking details out). Guess I will find out in a few days ....

 

[footloose]

It's a disease for sure, but there are certainly worse.

Cool bike! Please keep us updated.

Been fascinated with concept of chainless drive since I saw this bike drivetrain in a museum.
Manufactured in USA, circa 1900.

 

[dogman dan]

with two c washers, and two torque arms, I see no reason you can't run a front hub on that fork. It may not work like it should, and tend to bind some when the motor is pulling forward on the fork, but it should be safe with the proper install.

 

[LewTwo]

Obviously mid drive is out of the question.

Mmm...why? I can think of a couple ways to drive it.

As long as you don't mind the cranks being driven by the motor...

AH ... I do mind, so I will restate my remark:
"Obviously a unmodified Bafang mid drive is out of the question." :wink:
Overall I think a geared front hub will be the more practical approach level terrain and paved streets.

My Golden Motors system currently has a Rackmount 36 Volt 12Ahr battery pack.
Might be worth investing in a down tube mounted Battery (ie LunaCycle).
I wonder if the GM controller can handle a 52V pack
http://lunacycle.com/52v-panasonic-14ah-ga-shark-pack/

 

[LewTwo]

with two c washers, and two torque arms, I see no reason you can't run a front hub on that fork. It may not work like it should, and tend to bind some when the motor is pulling forward on the fork, but it should be safe with the proper install.

EDIT: Strike everything I previously posted about the fork.
I finally got on RST's web site and found the RST Trendy "T" in their 2010 Catalogue. It is a single preloaded coil spring in the right hand tube with a rubber stoppers at bottom and 40-50mm of travel. Bottom end is an aluminum casting. Still looks like it will fit the GM Smart Pie. It is 4.5 pounds that adds 4 inches to the height of the front end. I am going to consider grinding down the inside a bit and laminating in some 1/8 thick stainless --- but it could be more practical to just replace with a rigid curved fork.

View attachment RST 2010 CATALOGUE (page 70).pdf

 

[LewTwo]

Well good news ... the GM Smart pie fits with plenty of room to spare. I had forgotten just how heavy that system is. With rim and tire the magic pie is 16.5 pounds. The GM 36V 12Ahr rack mount battery 12.5 pound and the battery mounting plate adds another 1.5 pounds. That is 29.5 pounds ... almost as much as weight weenie E-bike. Now I remember why I built the weight weenie. OK .. enough botching and complaining. The two Toro Torque arms line up almost with the fender eyelets but I will have to elongate the holes a bit. I need washers to fill in the lawyer lips. The ones I have are to big.

I also checked to see it Lunacycle battery pack would fit. I looked at the Jumbo shark but it was a non-starter. Looks like a Lunacycle 52V x 14.5 Ahr is in my future. THe GM pack will be used on the weight weenie when I want extended range.Time to start collecting pieces parts. With the seat 35 inches off the ground I should have just enough room for a Thudbuster ST and I will top that off with a Cloud9 cruiser seat. Speaking of seat post I ordered a new seat post clamp so I can attach a real rack: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001V537I0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Need to do something about the wheels ... they MUST match. The magic Pie has the Stock GM rim with machined brake surfaces and steel spokes. The new bike has a similar profile black anodized rim with black spokes and a Nexous 3 speed hub. I do have another GM rim but it has a SA 3 speed hub. If the spoke lengths are the same then I can just swap the hubs ... other wise I need to order something.

Last but not least I have get rid of those "Stuby Dildo" hand grips.

 

[motomech]

Lew, do you really want to put a boat anchor of a motor on the frt. of that pretty svealt bike?
It will deffinally effect the handling adversely.
Everything about it says geared mini-motor to me

 

[LewTwo]

Lew, do you really want to put a boat anchor of a motor on the frt. of that pretty svealt bike?
It will definitely affect the handling adversely.
Everything about it says geared mini-motor to me

What I would really rather put on it is a 8 inch diameter, 5 pound, 48 volt, 500 watt direct drive hub with a Grin phase-runner controler but nobody makes a hub like that (or at least I have not found it).
I have the GM Smart Pie (400 Watt, geared hub) and all its pieces parts in hand. So for now I will stick with the Smart Pie.
Possible future upgrades are a rigid fork and a small geared hub like the Q100H-260.

 

[motomech]

Oh, I was thinking Magic Pie, Smart Pie is not so big.

 

[LewTwo]

Oh, I was thinking Magic Pie, Smart Pie is not so big.

They also have a new version called the magic Pie edge. It is supposed to be a 500 Direct Drive that is somewhere in size and weight between the Magic Pie and Smart Pie but I have not seen a drawing, dimensions and weights on it (funny how they leave these little nit picking details out).

 

[2old]

I purchased a fairly light (but didn't weigh it) chrome front fork from Bikewagon for less than $50 shipped, and they have sales around holidays, so probably received 10-15% off. Looks good and functions well.

 

[LewTwo]

I purchased a fairly light (but didn't weigh it) chrome front fork from Bikewagon for less than $50 shipped, and they have sales around holidays, so probably received 10-15% off. Looks good and functions well.

Thank you. As a urban rider I am not a big fan of suspension forks but I am not a big fan of the Houston pavement conditions either. So I figure to reduce the pre-load as much as possible and give it a fair try.

 

[LewTwo]

@Amberwolf: Well at least it has one advantage ... It can mount a wide soft tire
I just ordered a SCHWALBE Big Apple RaceGuard RLX: 29x2.35, 28x2.375, 60-622, 700C x 60
So many sizes for one tire and none of them accurate. I want to see if it will fit on the rear. If it doesn't then I can stick it in the suspension fork until I wear it out.

Edit 14 Oct 2016:
As suspected the 29x2.35 RLX did not fit in the rear triangle. It was rubbing against the shaft drive housing. One might fit a 29x2.1 (55-622) RLX in there but I ordered a 28x2.0 (50-622) RLX for it. The 29x2.35 RLX fits fine in the front fork with about 1/2 inch clearance between the top of tire and the bottom casting. A 29x2.5 Hookworm would also be likely to fit. I am using SCHWALBE AV 19 inner tubes with Sclaverand Valves. I like having the metal body and threaded ring to hold the valve in position when airing up an empty tube. These are low pressure balloon tires: 35-70 PSI rear and 30-700 PSI front. They are challenging to mount on 18mm rims but it can be done.

Reference: SCHWALBE Tires ...
https://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/road_tires/big_apple

 

[LewTwo]

I have decided to consider the Trendy fork a throw-away. I am going to run it (cautiously) with the Golden Motor Smart Pie for about six months. Lot of things that I do not like about the GM kit:
1) Programmable controller requires Windoze OS
2) Have to remove entire wiring harness to remove wheel
3) Oversized 14mm axle
4) It is very heavy for a geared motor
5) Controler 'soft-start' ... I am half way across a six lane intersection before motor kicks in
--- That is a BIG safety hazard in their software design ... enough so that I will likely never buy another GM product.

I figure in six months Cellman will have the new version of the front MAC500 motor and they will have a bit of a track record. At that point I will re-evaluate the trendy fork:
1) Did it last (i.e. no failures, cracks, etc)
2) Did its suspension (minimal as it is) offer any significant advantages

Fitting the Pie in the Trendy fork was a bit of a challenge due to the oversized axle or more specifically its oversized "C" washers. I had to grind down the OD of the "C" washers to fit inside the "lawyer lips". I am not happy about the lack of bearing surface inside or outside the the dropouts. The Torque arms almost line up with the fork eyelets. I am going to redrill them to match and add some spacers to fill in the gap.

Update 19 Oct 2016:
Broke my first spoke ever tonight. I decided that I could NOT live with mismatched rims and/or spokes. I had already replaced the rim of my Critical Cycles bike with a 700C Golden Motor rim to match the one that came with the GM Smart pie. I ordered a new set of 263mm x 14 gauge (2mm) SST spokes and 15mm brass nipples via Ebay so I could mount it to the rear hub of the new Sonoma bike. Tonight I removed the spokes from both rims. The spokes on the Sonoma rim were so tight that when I loosened a couple of them a third spoke popped its head off. The four sided spoke wrench also spun on several of the nipples. Turns out they are cheap aluminum nipples. I saved the remaining 35 spokes but the nipples are going in the trash.

 

[LewTwo]

Pictures of the rear hub --- figured I would take some pictures while there were no spokes or wheel to get in the way.


View attachment 2
There are two washers on the right (gear) side. The smaller of these fits into an indentation in the dropout to fix the horizontal location of the axle. Sure do not want to ever lose that waser: 2mm thick x 9.5mm ID x 20.0mm OD


Stock Specifications:
Brand: Sonoma (Dynacraft BSC, Inc., American Canyon, CA)
Model: 3S City Bike (8201-32)
Frame material: Aluminum (welded, no lugs)
Frame Type: Step through mountain with dual straight down tubes
Wheelbase: 43 inches
Fork: RST Trendy “T”, single recoil spring, rubber bottom bumpers, 40-50 mm travel
Steerer Tube: 1 inch threaded x approximately 7 inches long
Handle Bar Stem: 1 inch quill type, adjustable through 60 degrees, 120mm reach
Handle Bar: Aluminum, black, 22 mm diameter, 25.4 mm clamp, 600 mm end to end
Wheels: 700c x 18mm double wall aluminum, 29 mm deep profile, clincher, black
Rear Spokes: 36 x 263 mm (measured) x 2mm, 'J' bend, black
Front Spokes: 36 x 293 mm (best guess) x 2mm, 'J' bend, black
Spoke Nipples: 2mm x 12mm aluminum (IMHO ... junk)
Tires: Kenda Kourier 700x38C (max rear tire size = 29x2.0), tube type, schrader valves
Drive type: Sussex/Dekra 'D' enclosed shaft drive
Gear System: Shimano Nexus 3 Speed IGH (SG-3R40, OEM version)
((left and right spoke hole circle diameter= 74 mm, left and right flange CL offset = 24.5 mm))
Shifter: Shimano Nexus Revo Shifter, Right Hand, 3 Speed (SL-3S35)
Seat post: Aluminum, 26.8 mm x 255mm long x BMX style clamp
Seat: 7 x 10-1/2 inches, padded, elastomer coils (IMHO ... POS)
Seat post clamp: 32.8 mm inside diameter (O.D. of seat tube)
Pedals: 9/16 thread

 

[amberwolf]

I'm surprised there's no housing around the rest of the gear to keep debris out. It's impossible to keep it *all* out, but it'd probably keep wear down if there was at least a cover that overlapped the main shaft's cover.

If I had something like that around here, with the flinty dust we've got, I'd improvise something for it.

 

[LewTwo]

I'm surprised there's no housing around the rest of the gear to keep debris out. It's impossible to keep it *all* out, but it'd probably keep wear down if there was at least a cover that overlapped the main shaft's cover.

If I had something like that around here, with the flinty dust we've got, I'd improvise something for it.

There is a plastic piece that fits on the back half. I have it removed in order to show the gear and the hardware.

 

[LewTwo]

Nice progress. You might reconsider your pack choice as there have been a number of issues popping up with Lunacycle batteries, especially the 52V dolphins. You mentioned cellman-- his packs are much better quality, priced roughly the same last I checked and have local support in US afaik.

Thank you for the heads up but I have already received the battery from Lunacycle although I have not mounted it yet. I will need to replace the connectors and put a insert into the frame for one of the mounting screws. I am not going to do that until I can set the bike back on the ground .. so I am waiting for the spokes to make their way from California.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I have bought battery packs from both em3ev and Luna, and I have been pleased with both. If you have any issues, feel free to ask, and I'm sure plenty of ES members will be glad to help with useful advice.

 

[LewTwo]

Ah ok, hope it works well for you! I hope you didn't get a GA pack or don't intend to use it near 30A if you did. I can point out a few threads with their problems if you like but I'll share that "Lunacycle has legit cells and so their packs are mostly good as a result, but their info and specs are misleading, quite a few packs have fatal design flaws, the charger is low quality, they feign ignorance or blame the customer, etc."
It sounds like if you're changing connectors you don't mind getting your hands dirty, in which case it won't be as bad. :wink:

@spinningmagnets I've compared packs between em3ev and luna-- there is a huge difference. Lunacycle packs have some amateurish build and low quality control like you'd expect to see from an average Chinese re-seller. Don't be fooled by their hype

Well I got the 52V GA pack mainly because I wanted to pack as many watt hrs in as possible. I would have gone with the 48V Jumbo Pack but I do not believe that it would fit. I also got the 52V Advanced 300W charger. Ultimately I may drive a MAC 500 front hub with this battery but right now I will be driving a Smart Pie. So I do not think that I will drawing more than 20-25 Amps nominal. What concerns should I be looking for???

 

[Cephalotus]

...
What I would really rather put on it is a 8 inch diameter, 5 pound, 48 volt, 500 watt direct drive hub with a Grin phase-runner controler but nobody makes a hub like that (or at least I have not found it).
I have the GM Smart Pie (400 Watt, geared hub) and all its pieces parts in hand. So for now I will stick with the Smart Pie.
Possible future upgrades are a rigid fork and a small geared hub like the Q100H-260.

The smallest direct drive motor for a front wheel that I'm aware of is the BionX front hub motor.

You have to remove the controller from the inside thought, if you want to use your own. 500W should be no problem for this motor.

But i do suggest a geared front hub motor and a solid steel fork and not that el cheapo suspension fork joke...

 

[LewTwo]

The smallest direct drive Motor for a front wheel that I'm Aware of is the BionX front hub Motor.

Thank you for the suggestion. I took a look at the BionX web site but it seems rather short on useful information --- so further research

Reference: http://ridebionx.com/

 

[MrDude_1]

Perhaps I am missing something, but what is the reason for a DD front hub motor if you're sticking to only 500 watts?
Wouldnt a geared motor be smaller, lighter, still take that full power AND allow you to ride the bike normally with minimal resistance?

 

[LewTwo]

Perhaps I am missing something, but what is the reason for a DD front hub motor if you're sticking to only 500 watts?
Wouldnt a geared motor be smaller, lighter, still take that full power AND allow you to ride the bike normally with minimal resistance?

No, you did not miss anything. It has to do with something in the back of my mind (a lot of things get lost back in there). I have a Grin PhaseRunner that I am going experiment with a bit. There are features (regen, e-brake, etc) that controller supports but only work with a direct drive hub.

 

[MrDude_1]

Perhaps I am missing something, but what is the reason for a DD front hub motor if you're sticking to only 500 watts?
Wouldnt a geared motor be smaller, lighter, still take that full power AND allow you to ride the bike normally with minimal resistance?

No, you did not miss anything. It has to do with something in the back of my mind (a lot of things get lost back in there). I have a Grin PhaseRunner that I am going experiment with a bit. There are features (regen, e-brake, etc) that controller supports but only work with a direct drive hub.

That makes sense. I have a phaserunner too. They're great!