Poll: Should Windsor Crack Down On Ebikes?

[sk8norcal]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/story/2012/04/02/wdr-ebike-impaired-driving-charge.html
http://www.police.windsor.on.ca/traffic/Alternative%20Vehicle%20Chart.pdf

A high-ranking officer with the Windsor Police Service admits the laws governing the use of e-bikes can be confusing.

Frederick said e-bikes are causing problems and confusion at the municipal level.

"E-bike operators are not following the rules of the road," Frederick said.

He said e-bike operators are running stop signs and stoplights and riding on sidewalks.

Police said he faces a charge of impaired driving.

Acting Windsor police chief Al Frederick said the man had a suspended driver's licence.

"That may be why he was driving an e-bike, thinking he was circumventing [the law] by still getting around on a motor vehicle," Frederick said.

He (vendor) said people with suspended driver's licences have come in to buy an e-bike in place of their car, which can't be driven with a suspended licence.

 

[sk8norcal]

(from that article, ebike faq for ontario)
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/emerging/e-bike-faq.shtml

For use in the Province of Ontario, a power-assisted bicycle, or e-bike, is a bicycle that:

Has a maximum weight of 120 kg (includes the weight of bike and battery);

it is incapable of providing further assistance when the bicycle attains a speed of 32 km/h (20mph) on level ground,

wow, surprised at the max weight, 265 lbs....

 

[MikeFairbanks]

We need more people voting. This isn't about E-scooters this is about ebikes in general and the prejudices of the lazy-minded.

That's exactly right.

 

[sk8norcal]

not exactly....

the scooterbikes issue is a huge part of the argument regarding "ebikes" rules...
otherwise there wouldn't be a bunch of articles mentioning this problem...


http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34877&hilit=+scooterbikes
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31314&hilit=+scooterbikes
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=38437&hilit=+scooterbike

2009 video, ottawa, ON
[youtube]jKUgtdh8xP4[/youtube]

 

[Lock]

Another foolish poll brought to you by the folks that went to school to study English Literature...

Poll Question: Should E-Bikes be banned from Windsor trails and walkways?

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/0...s-be-banned-from-windsor-trails-and-walkways/

ES folks can feel free to mess with these chuckleheads... Poll results right now are 959 votes (78%) Yes, 265 (22%) No.

The Ebike Nation already beat these ppl down once...
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=36472

Looks like time for another beating.

Lock

 

[liveforphysics]

The comments are great. I will share a few dripping with ignorance.

fcaruana - 2 hours ago
ebikes should not only be banned from city trails, walkways and sidewalks, they should also be required to have license plates and park in legal parking spaces and not anywhere people please. These are not bicycles. they are "motorized" bikes and should be treated as such.

tj - 2 hours ago
E-bikes are loud on the peaceful riverfront trails. I have almost been hit by a couple that come zooming by you without warning. E-bikes should not be in cities that have a lot of traffic. They started in countries that have narrower streets and alleys to go through. If people want to be on the walkways and sidewalks then they should get a bike, it is a lot healthier for you too. If you like the speed and not using your legs then go get a motorcycle license and learn how to respect the rules of the road. An E-bike is not a bicycle, it is motorized! Follow the law.

"G" - 6 hours ago
The bike trails are about getting out, exercising and enjoying Windsors waterfront. E-bikes are for getting from point A to point B.

billy lemire - 5 hours ago
whats next golf carts ..............................

KevinM - 4 hours ago
No insurance, No licensing, No rules of the road... It is not a bike ! No way what so ever, it is a electric scooter, if you want it a bike than start using the pedals ! Out law them, ban them, start making them part of drivers ed. And have them registered $$$

 

[dogman dan]

Voted no, but couldn't comment whithout being a facebook addict. I'll try later when my wife gets home, in her identity.

Was going to comment that all wheeled vehicles should have a reasonable speed limit. And they should crack down on other jackass habits like walking three or four abreast up the center of the trail.

It's the damn scooter looking ebike backlash again. Not helped any by jackasses that may be riding them there.

Can't we just all get along?

 

[winkinatcha]

Sigh...
Good point Dogman about pedestrians...

e-bike or human only bike versus oblivious pedestrians taking up both sides of shared pathways, wandering from side to side, reading mobile phones, not wearing lites in the dark,.... I do not use a bell on my pedal vehicles, but start bleating loadly, sheep-like when approaching groups of oblivious peds on shared cycle/walkways.

But hey, anyone who is not me, and not doing what I am doing or not worshipping me as I am doing what I am doing is obviously either a moron or an enemy

 

[Ykick]

But hey, anyone who is not me, and not doing what I am doing or not worshipping me as I am doing what I am doing is obviously either a moron or an enemy

Great quote!

It sure seems like a rather large percentage of opposition? I'm usually skeptical and cynical but I suspect some shenanigans going down here.

Keep this bumped and rally the troops!

 

[winkinatcha]

Ah We;;.

being a facebook addict I ahve commented.... didn't rant (too much) and stole Dogman's "why can't we all just get along" attitude.

Dis is wot I sed

First up...There are e-bikes and there are e-bikes... if it has a petrol motor, then it is not an e-bike, if it has an electric motor, then it is an e-bike. At worst, Electric motors on bikes make less noise than a chattering group of children. Secondly, (and yes, I am an e-bike builder and rider) an e-bike does not have to mean a 40mph+ capable destructive machine, the legal limits for e-bikes in terms of power enable a modestly fit or otherwise less-abled person (such as myself with permanent left-leg damage that only gives it 50% strength of my right) to ride at best at the same speed as a fit person on a good road bike (around 20 mph). Personally I think that the electrified moped style e-bike as pictured is not an e-bike but an electric scooter with pedals. I have no love for these and would not classify them as an e-bike at all. The e-bikes I build are bicycles fitted with legal "low power" electric motors that Assist the rider... if you don't pedal you get to cruise at best 15 mp/h on the flat, if you do pedal, you can go as fast as a fit person on a good road bike, and carry the shopping, or bag from work 20 miles without fear of having to get off and push on a steep hill on the commute home. And still get a good fitness workout from pedalling... Imagine how many people could be "enabled" to commute outside of their cars and clustered public transport, on a less polluting, less space taking and accident causing vehicle, with positive personal health effects and positive environmental affects if more were made aware of what an amazing thing a legal, pedal assisting e-bike is, particularly when we ALL look at the positives and work towards finding solutions for mass commuting and lessening environmental impact.

Joe

 

[liveforphysics]

Most of us here know that an ebike makes more sense for human transportation over all other options, including walking, non-electric-bicycles, etc etc.


However, because of some confused folks believing in "laws" they can be so confused as to think the best transportation option available "shouldn't exist".

Robert Nykyforuk · Technical Service Specialist at AlphaKOR Group Inc.
I don't quite understand the purpose of an E-Bike. Quite frankly, they shouldn't really exist in their current form. If they want a motorized version of a bike (sometimes referred to as a motorcycle) then e-bikes should be bumped UP to a similar class as a motorcycle, require a license and just have an electric rather than gas powered engine. You can get into the semantics and say they have pedals so they're a 'bike' but they're faster than bikes and slower than cars.

 

[dogman dan]

Good comments.

After commuting on the bike paths localy I came to the conclusion that there was two hazards. One was a road biker in a tuck, zooming along looking at only his front tire. I talked to a guy who walks the path everyday, and asked why he got 6 feet off the path every time he saw a bike. He'd been hit 4 times over the years by "lycras". I convinced him to stop getting off the path for me, because I see him, and slow to 10 mph to pass. He could recognize my bike, all the panniers yet running at 20 mph.

The other hazard is the dumb cluck that thinks multi use path means I walk and everybody else can frock off. They stroll the middle, two to four abreast.

Most of the ones that look like a hazard, jogging with the I pod, seem to have figured it out to jog to the left, and let bikes pass.

 

[Sunder]

Most of us here know that an ebike makes more sense for human transportation over all other options, including walking, non-electric-bicycles, etc etc.

However, because of some confused folks believing in "laws" they can be so confused as to think the best transportation option available "shouldn't exist".

I think you're unnecessarily polarising things. I agree with Robert to a degree: Moped style eBikes shouldn't exist - They're too slow to survive on the road, but too large and heavy to ride on shared paths and bike paths. They're an artifact of poorly written laws. But Robert didn't say that eBikes shouldn't exist - simply not in the current form, and for someone who has not built an ebike, or even noticed a stealthy hub eBike, that's probably his only image of what an eBike is.

Right now, it's because many people do not believe laws are "just", "apply to them" or "effective", that we have this completely blurred line between what is an electric assisted bike, and what is an electric motorcycle. If the laws were clear that an electric assisted bike is under xxxW (Insert local law here), and is built into a normal bike frame and treated like a push bike, and anything else is an electric motorcycle and treated as a normal motorcycle - AND these rules were actually enforced - then you'd probably actually have much, much larger support for electric bikes.

They've proven time and time again, that harsher laws do not lower crimes - higher enforcement does. In one experiment, I can't remember the details now, they showed that people were more likely to obey a study's rules if they had an 80% chance of getting caught with no penalty, than a 20% chance of being caught and losing their honorarium. Maybe it's time for police to start pulling over ebikes, and doing "defect stations" on the roadside. Hell, if stationary trainers can give an estimate of how many watts you're putting out, it can't be hard for police to rig up something that even within a 100% margin of error, can tell you whether you're over or under.

The thing is, until the last 6 months or so, I feel electric bikes have flown under the radar. I actually think it's people pushing the boundaries, including companies making electric scooters and calling them ebikes - that is calling scrutiny down on us.

 

[liveforphysics]

Maybe it's time for police to start pulling over ebikes, and doing "defect stations" on the roadside.

Maybe, just maybe, it's time the cops driving around in cars realized they are a greater problem, and anyone transporting themselves in any lightweight electric vehicle is part of the solution, no matter what foolish arrangements of ink on paper fools choose to make somewhere.

 

[liveforphysics]

The whole thing with people hating the appearance of scooter-esque bikes because they think it should be carrying around a sheet of metal with numbers stamped into on the back and stuck to streets/hwy's etc is caused by confused folks having some confused concepts of laws. They should see it as perhaps the lowest harm form of silent ultra-efficient transportation available. Instead, they see this amazingly functional logical vehicle choice roll past them, and they think, hey! I think that guy should be burdened with the added expense of a licence/registration etc, and then restricted to operate in areas that may not be optimal for that excellent transportation choice!


It's like the people talking about the harms of drugs, the mass murders in mexico, the smuggling and trafficking, the people hurt from sketchy batches of impure hazardously cut batches, people stealing to afford the high prices, the whole organized crime system that exists because they are contraband material, etc etc. What do all of those harms stem from? They all stem from the laws. Harms directly created from the laws.

Scooter bikes are another situation where the harms are created not by the vehicle itself, they work amazingly well, I've personally seen hundreds of thousands of them working out perfectly for clean quick daily transportation needs in China. They work! The problem is with people believing because it has a shape like a scooter, that it should be punished and restricted to the function of a scooter, because they are confused.


All the folks who have any beef with any electric bicycle, no matter what shape it takes, should first have to come up with any alternative transportation that suits the needs better and/or causes less harms to the world before they can begin to criticize or wish/propose restricting them.

 

[Russell]

Note the picture they show;



...Sure THAT ebike looks like a scooter :x

-R

 

[sk8norcal]

Note the picture they show;



...Sure THAT ebike looks like a scooter :x

-R

that one is actually okay in my book, narrow enough crank with feet on pedals.

these fatter "scooterbikes" with the extra wide cranks needs to stay off the bike paths...

The poll question is kind of pointless, because it lumps "bicycle-esque" ebikes with "scooterbikes".........

This video makes a good point against scooterbikes....
(this is in ottawa, they are interviewing these scooterbike vendors, who, of course ,thinks they should be allowed on the bike paths $$$)

[youtube]jKUgtdh8xP4[/youtube]

 

[John in CR]

The real shame is that even a high percentage of ebikers are against the scooter looking ebikes. I wonder how many of those discriminating based only on looks are so politically correct they squeak. Ebikes are ebikes period, and we should all be supporting our brothers and sisters forced by circumstance to ride the most pitiful form of ebike. There's not a single argument you can present against the scooter ebikes vs more traditional bicycle looking ebikes that isn't easily refuted.

 

[winkinatcha]

ultimately I guess it is a fine distinction (I am one of those peeps that does not like electric scooters being called ebikes)

In this case I am of the beleif that e-bike equals e bicycle equals SOME pedalling component.

To me it comes down to... could you peddle the thing safely.

As mentioned in the video, there are models of e-bike/scooter that have such wide cranks that peddling is ridiculous n rooly bad on knee joints (there is an older gentleman peddling a yellow example in the second video), or other models with Slip off pedals.

Now I am an a$$hole at the best of times, and as such my opinions MAY be, like, stupid.

In my opinion, if ya cant peddle safely for the entire expected motor powered ride, then it is no longer a bicycle. It don't mean you HAVE to pedal, but if peddling is impossible for more than a km or so due to design, it aint no bicycle. Don't mean it isn't a valid e-vehicle tho, just don't try to make me beleive that it can be classed as a bicycle.

This is 'cos I define a bicycle as a human powered device. I call motorbikes motorbikes, not motor bicycles for this reason

Now to me 'tis the same with the 2kw plus machines... even if they are on a perfectly "normal" bicycle BASE, if at the top speed ya cant pedal, well, cmon kiddies yer "driving" an electric motorbike, with pedals attached cos ya can stealth yer way around da laws.

(and yeah I have had and will have a gain a 2kw plus build. and I will prolly refer to it as an e-bike, cos I prolly will have, like the last build, a very large chain ring so I can peddle as fast as the motor)

E-scooters, let them be classified as mobility devices, and get around the "where ya can ride em" laws, but don't try and kid me that they are even vaguely designed to be peddled for more than show.

 

[John in CR]

They can be pedaled, and the very low speed with which they can be pedaled is perfectly safe around others. Also, "bicycles" means 2 f'ing wheels and the original ones had no pedals or chains. They meet the legal definition of a bicycle, so leave the poor people alone. They're not bothering anyone but those who discriminate based on looks, and who get bothered by their own thoughts much the same that motorist do wrt to cyclists. Other than probably some users who lack proficiency (not the machine's fault) they're safer around others (especially with the pedals stowed inside) for both the rider and the 3rd party than the lycra clad cyclists who think they own the paths. That's because they go slower and their shape is to deflect objects away instead of becoming entangled in sharp protrusions.

Seriously, why does it bother you guys that their pedals are inefficient? Think about it for a second, you guys would probably think it was really cool if you saw someone riding a really high penny farthing on the path, which would be far less safe around others and for the rider. A velocipede replica would be thought of as cool too, but heaven forbid something look like a scooter.

 

[Lessss]

Yes.
76.8%
(1,278 votes)


No.
23.2%
(386 votes)



Total Votes: 1,664

 

[winkinatcha]

Yeah John in CR, I do agree my "logic" in nomenclature is pretty freakin' thin, just trying to communicate the basis for my personal classifications of what does or does not constitute an ebike... I don't mean to stir you up, and find it an interesting debate, so apologies if it creates ire, just tell me to shutup.

BTW I DID once cruise beside a guy riding an 8 ft Unicycle on my standard bike commute route, not quite a penny farthing but uber awesom, and as I cruised beside him on my over powered e-bike we had quite a good chat, comraderie in doing "dangerous" things on shared pathways maybe

I guess the whole e-bike name is a tad wierd... i mean does that mean an electrified trike is not an e-bike? It should be an e-trike, no?

So anyways, yeah I reckon a vespa is a scooter and a dirtbike is a motorcycle, they are both two wheeled but to me totally different machines, and I reckon a motorbike based around an electric motor is.... an electric motorbike. I reckon if the vespa was fitted with an electric motor it would be... an electric scooter.

Fun with names... I will voluntarily shut up now

OH n edit after more thoughts reading Jon of CR's post, true true, I don't want to restrict peoples desires to get out and about, but I also am someone who has difficulty dealing with pedestrians when I am one of them, particularly when they dawdle about, enjoying their lives whilst slowing me down getting from a to b... There are large parts of asshole in how I think.

 

[dogman dan]

People that say the scooter look ebikes are too heavy too wide or too fast for a bike trail are full of shit. They are no wider than a baby buggy, and if they are hitting people it's dumbfrock rider that is the problem not the scoot. Any vehicle, anywhere, needs to drive in a way that is safe in that situation.

Example, go to Mission Bay San Deigo. Ride or rollerblade the paths there. Over on the strand at PB, you have to travel at most, at 5 mph. It's packed. Go over by the Hilton, and you could safely ride the bike paths at 50 mph. Nobody there walking.

But I do say over and over, If you have a DUI, and the cops already know and hate you, ride an ebike that looks like it's not motorized. Because the cops are as uninformed and biased as everybody else. Let the local nazi think you are just pedaling.

I have to admit, if the DUI crowd adopts e bikes in big numbers and ride like they used to drive, its a problem. Bad for the rest of us, that just want to ride safely on the bike path rather than take our chances with the cars on the main street. Just like all jackasses, they ruin it for everybody. Remember when you used to go to the pool and there would be a diving board? Not any more. You are allowed only to stand in the water, and don't splash anybody or they kick you out.

Makes me kind of glad there are only half a dozen ebikes in my mid size city. You see tons of new DUI's on bikes all the time, trying to re learn bike riding. Fortunately they haven't discovered ebikes here.

 

[Lock]

One report from someone (not me) that attended the meeting of the Environment and Transportation Committee for the City of Windsor last night:

I was at the council meeting. It was sad really. They had made up their minds ahead of time. The councilors that were there were not well informed. One had a clue. One, the jury is out... the third, Ed Sleiman, was so far out of the game that he never made it to the field until it came to vote. I back this up by the fact that throughout the meeting, over 15 times, he asked questions that indicated that he didn't understand what an ebike was.. the kicker though was when he asked, "Aren't they motorcycles? Can't WE license them?" and once again had to be corrected by the Lady (Josette?) that that was outside their jusridiction and that ebikes are Bicycles and do not require licensing.
A gentleman that was at the meeting and spoke to Ed Sleiman prior to the start of the meeting and it was made clear to him that his mind was made up.
The meeting ended with the Retailers being asked if they could modify the bikes in any way to make them louder... (from the chairman.. You know- without having to use the cards in the spokes like when we were kids)
One asked as we were leaving if we could make the muffler louder. I can not begin to tell you how angry I was then or now. To come to a meeting where you are so deliberately unprepared and ignorant of what you are speaking about is abhorrent and then to vote on it an have it pass to become a recommendation to council.

 

[Ykick]

Something's not right with this poll. Me thinks the admin or somebody is messing with the results? Of course it's a stupidly written and negative slant question in the first place but I don't think that's the rest of the story...