Quality Control Reject Cells

[Lucifer]

I'm very new to this literally a couple of weeks BUT I was a qualified electrical engineer.

The issue of QC reject cells has literally just come to my attention, and apart from the fact that in the UK its a criminal offence to sell any kind of QC reject WITHOUT CLEARLY INDICATING that's what it is. It's a problem, but it obviously is happening.

So this post is more of a thinking out loud than a solution,

But firstly the obvious....... If you have been conned report it, only when enough people do that do the Trading Standards get the police involved and take action. Yes its a pain, but you can't really complain if you are basically conned and don't report it can you?

BUT, thats after the event isn't it, it helps others but not immediately you, which is why so many people don't bother and the problem gets bigger and bigger.

But is there anything you do to test a product yourself?

I don't have an immediate answer BUT THIS IS A FACT, with every other electrical product ever made, the most likely time for it to fail is when its new, that's a fact, if these is a fault it usually shows itself very quickly. Once it has survived a couple of weeks constant use, it will usually last years, and even then it is usually a mechanical part in the item that actually causes it to go to the recycle center. For several years the entire Television Set manufacturing industry, had entire buildings full of thousands of TV sets undergoing "Soak Testing", basically plugged in working waiting for them to fail or need adjusting BEFORE SELLING THEM TO THE PUBLIC, I used to build these soak testing facilities.

Eventually, after using this approach for years, they decided to stop and sell the stuff straight of the production lines, and just test the odd one in case the entire batch was faulty (that's what batch testing really means..... LOL). But if none of the test items fail (which may be just the odd one unless and there is an immediate problem, in which case more will be tested) and then the rest of the batch are rejected by QC. Then they consider them all perfect (knowing they are not) and simply replace the ones that fail when a customer uses them, BECAUSE IT WAS CHEAPER AND EASIER TO DO THIS.

So this leads me to wonder, could we do the same things with new cells we buy from anyone other than the manufacturer, devise a soak test that will literally subject them to a couple of weeks hard work, leave then running driving something (Powering for example a smaller motor, like a windscreen wiper motor thru a relay which is latched (held on) on by the cell(s) being tested voltage. SO when the cells Vcc drops the relay drops out, and instead of connecting the cell to a load, it connects it to a charger. Basically leave it running in a shed cycling between real load, and recharge for a couple of weeks, simulating a much longer period of constant actual use. Obviously use battery holders, no soldered or spot welds so the cells are still unmarked and looking new and unused.

But if they fail, send the back as DOA, or this happened when I put this in my torch, and get for a refund

What does anyone think?

Keith

Beat them at their own game?

 

[amberwolf]

There are a number of cell testing threads around here that show equipment and methods. Some include life-cycle testing to find out degradation over time as well. This information can be used to test any of your cells as well.

Sellers are generally not going to invest in the equipment or time to do any of this, they wouldn't make enough profit (or would have to raise their prices, which will lose them sales).

Reputable cell manufacturers already do this testing. The catch is that their rejects that were sent for materials recycling too-often end up being resold as new cells somewhere, and not as rejects...and almost certainly weren't categorized as "safe but not to spec" and "wow these are going to catch fire if we use them", etc. by the manufacturer in the recycling bins, and so since none of the people doing the shady business are going to do any testing of them, they just get into the supply chain and into end-users' stuff. Since all that many sellers care about is that their stuff costs them as little as possible, because that's all that many end-users care about, this is going to continue unabated.

The only thing that could stop it (other than end-users' buying choices changing, which isn't going to happen) would be increases in your tax money via government legal processes to prevent the sale and/or use of stuff that doesn't come directly from original manufacturers with traceable certifications. That kidn of thing would force and/or allow huge increases in battery costs, and that would change the nature of electric everything. (some for the better, as it would be safer, but some for the worse in that it could eliminate the ability to legally DIY anything and would certainly eliminate the ability of poorer folks from using some battery-powered things. It would almost certainly eliminate all sales of used batteries of any kind since you couldn't trace things thru their whole lifespan that way, and that would increase costs as they would then all have to be recycled for materials, and it would only make sense to add a tax to the original manufacture that pays for their eventual recycling.)



But:

The best way to beat any of the bad ones is not to buy from them, and make sure that anyone else you can influence purchase choices of doesn't either. If they're not making money at it, they'll stop doing it.


With most of the sellers out there that are not selling reliable stuff, good luck with getting any form of warranty coverage on them, particularly as it may be illegal for you to ship the defective battery or cells, and they may require you to do so before they will cover them. Even if legal, shipping would usually require "UN certification", which means you can't just ship them yourself however you like, you would have to pay one of the shippers that does this, by whatever methods and costs and fees they charge.

Of course, you can just do it anyway, but if they do manage to sneak past customs either exiting your country or entering the seller's (which they might not, in which case you're not only out of luck, you may have to pay fees or fines, and this is true *both ways*, sending yours back and getting your replacements from them), but they may be able to legally refuse the shipment (depends on their local laws).

Shipping stuff back correctly is often so expensive that it's one way some sellers keep from having to honor their warranties.

If you're dealing with a reputable seller with a clear warranty statement, make sure they don't require shipping of the defective parts back to them to honor their warranty. They may require video evidence of destruction of them so they know you're scamming them, but it will save you huge amounts of hassle and money.

If you don't know if they're reputable or trustable, and they don't have a clear published warranty statement that you don't have to ask private questions of them to figure out, don't buy from them.



Regarding the actual cells:

Even some of the not-(or less-)disreputable sellers of cells and batteries can't tell you anything about the history of the cells they use, and some can't even give you the source (they probably simply don't know). They may know the brand and model that's printed on the cell, but this may not the the original one, as cells can be cleaned, remarked, and rewrapped.

Then there are the *Fire cells. Ultrafire, trustfire, etc etc. The keyword there is "fire". They might not actually catch fire, but they are sold with specifications they can NEVER meet, not even remotely. If you actually tried to use them to those specs, they might fail in "interesting" ways that I'd rather not see. They do this rewrapping and remarking on a grand scale and are highly successful at scamming people. You've seen at least one ad yourself for cells like this from a non *Fire brand, of which there are many more than the *Fires.

Then there are too many of the (usually cheap, TGTBT) sellers out there for both batteries and cells are selling known rejects, or even actual recycled garbage cells of who knows what origin or defects, and almost certainly perform no testing on them of any kind. Some of the awful packs we've seen opened up are a mishmash of many kinds of cells all mixed together randomly, and sometimes they even actually connect all of the cells together correctly. Most of them outright lie about the cell source, brand, specs, etc.



If you're really curious and have a LOT of spare reading time, there are hundreds (maybe thousands) of threads about cell or battery pack problems that the above summary gleans from over the years. Many of the threads don't start about the battery, but about a bike / etc that turns off, doesn't startup, can't make it up a hill, etc etc. where the battery is found to be the cause. And some fire threads, too.

 

[Lucifer]

Sounds like an even bigger problem than I suspected (but I'm still new to this)....... Nightmare.

But you didn't respond to my eventual point of designing a simple soak testing device for cells THAT US BUYERS COULD USE, make the cells (or batteries) do a few months of simulated work in a couple of weeks and then recheck the item and send them back for a full refund as faulty if they fail.

At least in the uk, WE HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT TO RETURN ANYTHING BOUGHT BY MAIL ORDER WITHING 30 DAYS AND GET A FULL REFUND. And the seller has to pay the postage. While overseas suppliers to the UK like China may ignore the legislation or pretend they don't know about it. Here even e-bay now makes them comply..... Eventually. Also I was pointing out there is a wide range of other legislation here that makes misrepresentation, even by omission a criminal offence, BUT if no one bothers to report it when it happens there is no chance of the criminals getting caught is there.

Obviously I have no idea what if any protection consumers have in the States or elsewhere in the world. But pretty much all of europe has similar legislation in place.

But my main being if dodgy sellers keep getting returns at their cost, and have to give full refunds, then cowboys wont make a profit. And if they don't make a profit from their activities they will do something else.

I wasn't suggesting the suppliers should go back to soak testing, rather that us buyers could do it ourselves, then return stuff that fails.

Keith