Registering high powered ebike as moped.

[dfarning]

First, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to the immense amount of knowledge on the site. I can be a bit hard to sort through at times, but it has definitely been worth the effort.

I placed the final order on the big parts to my first build last night.
Trek 7.2 FX (onhand)
Cyclone 3000w (LunaCycle)
66V 32ah Lipo battery (Hobby King)
Cycle Analyst (Grin)

The parts might seem a bit odd. The primary goal the the bike is a learning project with a secondary goal ending up with a useful means of transportation that is somewhere between a pedal bike and a motorcycle.

I live in the driftless region of wisconsin which consists of several hundred square miles of semi-rural gently rolling hills. I expect that 90% of my riding time will be in the 500-750 watt range but I wanted the extra low end torque of of the Cyclone mid drive to help deal with the hills.

The DIY Lipo pack is primarily because I wanted to learn to build and maintain a lipo pack. I've done a few 24 volt SLA and 48 volt 18650 projects but this will be my first 72 volt lipo project. Phase one will be experimenting with various configurations of 6s bricks using plug and play looms. Phase two will be disassembling the bricks to create a 72 volt 20s pack with BMS.

The cycle analyst for its current and speed limiters. Informal discussion with a local police officer said that if I could prove that I made a reasonable compliance with the 750W and 20mph regs the local police would not bother me unless I was being stupid.

This brings me to my question. Has anyone gone through the process of registering their high powered ebike as a moped in the US?

At least in my area, it was surprising easy to register an electric motorcycle which I rebuilt from an existing motorcycle. Having a Existing VIN on the vehicle frame made it simple. The inspector asked a few questions. He looked at how the motor was mounted, and then checked to make sure all the safety features like headlights, taillights, mirrors, and horn were fully functional. I paid my money and was on my way. $23 registration every other year and $45 annual insurance and I am street legal.

Wisconsin Law is a bit foggy on ebike. We don't have any comprehensive ebike laws. Instead, we have a CORRESPONDENCE MEMORANDUM from the DOT. Sadly, the document only tangentially touches on ebikes. The gist of the regulations seem to be less than 750W, less than 20mph, don't ride on "bike paths" while under motor power.

Talking to car guys, mostly old-timely hot-roders, the common knowledge is that building from scratch is not worth the hassle because of the of inspection and insurance issues. But, I have not met or talked to anyone first hand that has actually tried to register and insure a from scratch vehicle so I don't how true it is.

Anyone have actual experience registering a ebike as a moped for higher speed street use?

 

[DRMousseau]

I had strongly considered registering my e-bike in Michigan as a "moped",... mostly for better traffic acknowledgement and acceptance as a motor vehicle, AND jus to stay on the better side of Law Enforcement. Decided it wasn't worth the trouble.

29'r Beach Cruiser
1500w rear hub
40A controller
52V 11.5AH Battery pack
Top speed-40mph

Michigan has no regulations for e-bikes or even motored bicycles!!! IF, your bicycle has a motor,.... than it is by definition, a motor vehicle, and must be registered as a moped, or motorcycle, even though it's impossible to register a bicycle as such!!!

Mopeds are not titled vehicles here, but must be registered with identifying frame serial number. No insurance necessary, but recommended. A few limitations of rider (over 15yrs with license), lights, transmission/gear limitations, seat and handlebar requirements. NO PASSENGERS! And CAN NOT be capable of speeds over 30mph on flat level ground. Engine limited to 50cc and not more than 2 brake horsepower (and you'll confuse them if you say anything about an electric motor!!!!) You MUST simply register as a "moped", NOT as an e-bike, motored bike, motor-assisted or anything else! You tell them anything more than "I wanna register my moped", and you'll be denied, as they simply can not relate to anything else. You get a form to fill out, and are issued a tag/decal that MUST be displayed in a specific manner.

IF,... it is capable of a speed over 30mph, or exceeds motor/power requirements, it will be considered a motorcycle!!! Since such bikes cannot meet the extensive DOT standards (frame constructions, brakes, tires, lights, etc.,.... it CAN NOT be registered as a motorcycle and is forbidden for any use on public roads!!! It may be registered as an ORV by the DNR for OFF ROAD USE ONLY and subject to extensive limitations of use, jus as are snowmobiles, trailbikes, quads and other ORVs.

NOW, this means at any time, I may be subjected to ANY officers, personal interpretation of existing state laws, and I may be cited,... typically for operating an unregistered motor vehicle on a public street!!! At the very least, operating a motored vehicle on a sidewalk or other restricted access. This WILL be costly, in either fines and/or necessary court and legal fees!!! Depending on the court, you might find sanctuary in federal e-bike laws,... MAYBE!

I decided I would jus remain a bicycle,... sorta. And I opted for an electric motor assist, rather than a engine assist. The noisy engine INSTANTLY removes me from the bicycle classification. My obscure motor and controller CAN be set to limit power and speed to federal e-bike standards, and I use respectful common sense if and when I'm on any sidewalks and pathways. And 90% of the time, I too am in compliance of "OPERATING" within those 750w and 20mph regulations. Over that and LEO will certainly cite me as an unregistered moped at the very least, AND, I would be found guilty in every court!!! Now,... it's pretty difficult to determine the power I have when leaving a stoplight, and I may exceed 2000W!!! As long as I don't pop a wheelie or accelerate too rapidly or beyond that 20mph limit,.... I'm assumed to be somewhat in compliance, and as I appear as a typical bicycle of no outstanding exception, and I'm not bothered at all. But if I were to appear on the streets as a typical heavy-battery, fat-tired, suspended stealth-bomber,... then I'd best have a moped registration plainly visible or I'd likely be stopped in every presense of a squad car!!!

 

[dfarning]

Interesting perspective. I would guess that many ebike builders lean towards your perspective. They want to be street legal, when on the street, but it is at worst not possible and at best difficult or impractical under current legislation in most states.

In wisconsin it appears that registered mopeds require a vin. After the new year, I'll follow up with the DMV. If anyone has gone through the process I would appreciate learning about your experience so I don't sound like a moron who has not done his research prior to wasting someone at the DMV's time.

The irony of the situation is that I have a 1930 Dodge car which is completely legal to drive today because of a grandfather clause. That car is much less safe than many ebikes.

Anyway... back to the shop to clear out some space on the bench. My motor kit should arrive early next week.

 

[amberwolf]

I don't know about that state in particular, but many people have used a VIN from an existing vehicle of the type they wish to register as, by including that part of that vehicle (headtube/frame/etc) as part of their custom-built vehicle. (Have seen a number of this kind on EVAlbum, when following links from there to their build sites, over the years).

 

[dogman dan]

Moped frame.

But here is an interesting fact to know,,, The old EV Global bike does have a vin number on it. it's a decent frame too!

That's what you are hunting for, an old EVG.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XEV+global+bike.TRS0&_nkw=EV+global+bike&_sacat=0

 

[gogo]

$45 annual insurance and I am street legal.

What company is this through? The lowest I could find is $75/yr.

In Iowa, you'd need to start with a moped that's been previously titled, or one that has an MSO that states the top speed is no more than 39 MPH and it meets federal safety requirements. I don't think the EVG VIN would be enough to get it registered as a moped in Iowa, and probably not in Wis. either.

The builder's approach of replacing everything except the moped headtube and vin stamp is probably your best bet if you want to use a bicycle. I can imagine a judge deciding that doing so would substantially defeat the federal safety requirements. Check your state laws regarding such possibilities.

 

[WoodlandHills]

If you don't have a VIN, why not apply for an assigned one? Isn't this what the chopper builders and hot rodders do? Why should a moped be any different?

google: "Michigan assigned VIN" (for some reason I cannot cut and paste the link) for the process of registered a homemade vehicle. As part of the process, a VIN is assigned for $10 before then applying for a title, since a moped does not need a title, just halt the process once the VIN has been assigned. There is no requirement that any components meet any DOT standards, just that you show receipts for purchase for the major parts: frame, forks, motor, seat etc (they list them). Look for Assembled Vehicles........

Oops, it looks like the tires have to be DOT approved......

 

[dfarning]

Thanks woodlandhills.

That got me pointed in the right direction. The term "builders title" or "hobbyist license plates" seem to be used in Wisconsin.

I have had insurance for a primary car, collector cars, and various motorcycles through the same company for nearly 30 years without any accidents which were considered my fault.... knock on wood. My insurance is pretty low per vehicle.

 

[dogman dan]

Each state different of course. I just suggested the EVG because its the only ebike I have ever seen with a vin. its from a decade before most states passed an e bike law, so it needed a vin to be a moped. Should fly to make it a legal moped, after putting on the tires or lights or whatever the state requires.

Supposed to be less hassle to get through the process, if you have existing vin. So hot rodders will start with a frame with vin to make it easier. If you build for the race, no need to plate it.

if you are building a motorcycle power bike, then you might have to start with, or build, a motorcycle frame.

 

[motomech]

In Az., the "Moped" requirements are;
Less than 50 cc engine displacement and a max speed of 25 mph.
Although still on the books, the "have pedals" and an engine output requirement of less than 1 1/2 hp are pretty much ignored.
Reg. is required, but no title issued(Bill of Sale for reg.).
LIabilty insure. required.

So I could push that a bit and cruise the traffic lanes at 30 mph, but since I can already run the mostly vacant bicycle lanes at 25 mph, I don't see much advantage there.

Nevada would be tempting.
One time reg. with no title or insure required.
Max speed of 30 mph.

 

[st35326]

I have registered 2 "motorized bicycle" in CA and if I could do it again would not. Heres why......

1) You now have a vehicle that can be identified and sited for any and all traffic infractions (including red light cameras when the magnetic mass of your vehicle will not trip the actuator to turn the light green so you can go). Also motorcycle police seem to want to know what kind of bs you had to pull to get a place for a home made moped. The last thing you want out here is more attention from motorcycle cops.

2) You are now responsible for carrying insurance, which was $87 per year per registered bike.

3) Cost of registration, inspection and lots of explaining and hassle $200.

4) You are now subject to helmet laws. While there is no bike helmet law in CA there is on licensed mopeds and scooters (DOT helmets).

Lastly, nothing against your setup but I don't consider it to be a high powered ebike. Based on my riding experience I set the low end cutoff for high power at around 50mph. I tend to view all the 30-45mph ebikes in the same medium power range and wattage. 15-28 mph being the low power 500-1000 watt for commonly mass produced bikes.

 

[amberwolf]

1) You now have a vehicle that can be identified and sited for any and all traffic infractions (including red light cameras when the magnetic mass of your vehicle will not trip the actuator to turn the light green so you can go).

FWIW, in AZ (and probably most places), bicycle riders are responsible for obeying all the same traffic rules as anyone else using the road, and so could be cited for anything they do wrong even if it is a completely unpowered bike (pedal only).

Whether anyone bothers to cite them or not, well, that depends on the enforcement officer and/or department attitude.

 

[dfarning]

Thanks for all the help, I am going to set this aside for my first ebike build. Otherwise I'll get so wrapped up in the legaleze to enjoy my time in the garage.

I agree that in hindsight high powered was not the best title for this thread considering some of the awesomeness others are building.

 

[dogman dan]

They don't have a plate to photograph on the red light cam though, if it's not there.

Of course, if you want insurance,, you could just get it done, but forget to mount the plate.

I have seen little evidence that up to 30 mph + obeying traffic laws in general gets noticed much by cops anywhere in the USA,, with the exception of the guy who got the local cops knowing and hating him.

I recall a guy in Phoenix, he rode a scooter look type e bike, but wanted to also ride the wrong side of the street and shit like that. The cops knew him,, he was also some kind of civil liberties advocate type who always raised hell at city council meetings about stuff. Anyway,, it was like see him,, bust him. He wanted to more or less ignore traffic laws on a "Bike".

But as AW pointed out, the law says you can't do that in AZ. NM same,,, on a skateboard,, bike,, or whatever,, stop signs apply.

 

[AstroKat]

I have a similar question regarding my build for my teenager. Here in California, there are no registration requirements up to 28mph but riders must be 16 years old to go over 20mph. Not sure how the cops could tell just by looking at an ebike but, being the law-abiding, diligent parent that I am I'm wondering how one calculates the max speed, given so many variables (power, weight, drag, etc.)

With a 48v 1000w motor and batteries, the mountain bike weighs about 70lbs. Add one 130lb teenager, and it's about 200lbs total, with off-road tires. What would the max speed on a flat road be?

 

[amberwolf]

For checking, police can use radar guns, pacing, etc. I know the sign-on-side-of-road type can measure bicycle speeds with reasonable accuracy as I've seen them measure mine (even my Fusin 1000w test bike, which was pretty much a normal bicycle, unlike most others I've made).

Depends on rollng resistance, wind, etc, but the easy way to make sure you don't go over whatever the limit is is to use the kit's speed limiter if it has one, or use something like the Cycle Analyst from Grin Tech http://ebikes/ca to limit speed (and power if necessary).

The best way to do it (unless the law requires it be *unable* to exceed some speed limit under power) is simply to teach the rider to use the bike's speedometer (whether part of the kit or a regular bike speedo) and pay attention to local road limits, and adjust throttle accordingly.

But if they can't manage that (or arent' trustable to do it) then the kit or the CA could limit the speed.

 

[AstroKat]

Thank you!

I thought I'd ask the question as the kit I bought is being returned and I'm shopping for a replacement. I know a LOT more now (in large part due to the helpful folks on this site) than when I bought it in December.

If I'm reading the regs correctly, it's not to do with the rider exceeding the speed limit, it's the capability of the bike. I doubt the laws have been tested in appeals courts yet but, basically, I'm wondering if it's legal for an under-16yo to ride an ebike in California with a 1000w motor. All fascinating stuff, being on the bleeding edge of tech and legislation...

 

[2old]

52V, 1000w kit (xcesseries on ebay), flat road, 180 pound rider = 32 mph (probably 28 @ 48V) --- if you truly want to stay at 20 mph, 36V IMO (like the similar 500w kit).

 

[AstroKat]

Good to know, thanks! I think I'll stay with 45v 1000w for the hill climb assist and see if I can limit the speed to 20mph via the controller. Regulations aside, I'm not sure I want him going over 20mph under power anyway...

 

[AstroKat]

OK, now I'm feeling really stupid...

Despite all of the pre-purchase research I did, I was not aware that "electric bicycle" motors in California are limited to 750w. I was aware of the speed limits (e.g. 20mph for class 1 and 2) but most of the articles only mention the classes and speeds in the new law, and other requirements such as having e-brakes, not the motor wattage. Even this official-looking chart that is posted all over the place does not mention wattage.

I had also seen lots of recommendations for 1000w motors (here and elsewhere), and found a good price on Amazon for a 48v 1000w kit from AW International (ironically, based in California).

Not sure where to go from here. Anyone know how a "750w motor" is defined and interpreted by lawmakers? I've read a lot of articles about vendors labeling motors as less powerful to get around import restrictions. I can limit the speed via the LCD panel but not the current. Almost every vehicle on the road is capable of exceeding a speed limit but it's not a crime until you do so.

I'm already on my second kit due to what seems to have been an anomalous broken magnet. I'm not having a great DIY ebike experience thus far...

 

[WoodlandHills]

Technically, every ebike sold in with a 48v or larger battery is over 750w, unless it is running below 15a, which is unlikely. Vendors will claim a loophole via the "peak power vs continuous power" debate, but that has never been litigated, which indicates how little any agency really cares. Keep in mind that the 750w limit originated with a Federal regulation and that the individual states are loath to open up that particular can of worms, thus the emphasis upon speed limits as opposed to power limits.

The short answer is that, yes, you would be in violation along with myself, my wife and tens of thousands of others in CA. However it is a law that has yet to be enforced AFAIK.

 

[AstroKat]

However it is a law that has yet to be enforced AFAIK.

Yeah, and it's not really "the law" until it works its way through the appeals process to establish case law. Not sure I want my kid to be the test case...

I received a reply from AW International in Califorina: "Thank for your message. Unfortunately, we have no heard of this particular law. "

 

[WoodlandHills]

Actually, it's a regulation by a federal agency that has the force of law behind it. All the Rangers care about when I meet them on the trail is if I have a throttle, not how many amps I am running. Apparently their concern is performance based and not theoretical: as long as you are Class 1 compliant they don't care how big your motor is. Just don't have a bike that will go over 20mph on the flat under motor only and don't have a throttle. For your son, gear it so it has a maximum 28mph top speed and he will be legal as far as any policeman is concerned.

 

[AstroKat]

Academically, I find all of this very interesting. In rocketry, for example, I can build and launch a rocket that is capable of exceeding all of regulations in California. But if I launch the exact same rocket with a single motor that's approved in California, it's legal. If I use five of the same motors in a cluster, in the same rocket, not so much...

How sad that the 750w limit got inserted into the bill somehow. It would have been much simpler to interpret and enforce the regulation without it.

 

[AstroKat]

I was just reminded that most cyclists around here blow through stop signs, and even red traffic lights, all day long. These are well-established laws and the cops pay no attention.