Registering high powered ebike as moped.

AstroKat said:
I was not aware that "electric bicycle" motors in California are limited to 750w. I was aware of the speed limits (e.g. 20mph for class 1 and 2) but most of the articles only mention the classes and speeds in the new law, and other requirements such as having e-brakes, not the motor wattage. Even this official-looking chart that is posted all over the place does not mention wattage.

Where did that 750w number come from? There was a big discussion here several years ago concerning California concerning laws as written THEN of course, the two biggies were specific laws stating "Developing less than 2 brake hp" and "Below 1000w." Also the mention of 20mph or less if it's nonregistered.

AstroKat said:
Anyone know how a "750w motor" is defined and interpreted by lawmakers? I've read a lot of articles about vendors labeling motors as less powerful to get around import restrictions. I can limit the speed via the LCD panel but not the current. Almost every vehicle on the road is capable of exceeding a speed limit but it's not a crime until you do so.

Well, it's good you brought that up. You'll get a CHP inspection if you're trying to register it as a moped, obviously none if you're not. People here have access to such stickers as they need. I don't think a lawmakers interpretation matters, they won't be there when there's a problem.

As far as I'm concerned, a 1500w leaf hub on, oh, some random 20" XGames bike or Schwinn OCC chopper that I might be familiar with are both interpreted as being legal. Now how is anyone going to prove me wrong?
 
Dauntless said:
Where did that 750w number come from?

It's embodied in the new law:

312.5. (a) An “electric bicycle” is a bicycle equipped with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts.
 
I agree that making a law with a specific wattage is not helpful, and it illustrates that our lawmakers are clueless!
 
Especially since other things, like this could come up: "fully operable pedals" is itself not defined.. Does "operable" mean they spin around? Or does it mean they are fully attached to the frame to support the feet? Or does it mean they drive a wheel via a chain? What about belt drives? Or shaft drives? Or series-hybrids where the pedals turn a generator that powers a motor? ;)
 
I have a set of 75mm unicycle pedals to install on my Phaserunner BBSHD hi volt hi amp project. I am building it for OHV "green sticker" trails, but by having pedals I don't need a green tax sticker nor do I need any sort of registration. I tried them on the FS fatbike frame with a 30a 52v BBSHD and while it felt odd at first, when I rode the bike on throttle only it was almost like having pegs. On the new bike I was thinking of installing the cranks so that they both hung straight downwards and using them as swinging pegs...... If stopped, I doubt any ranger would care that the cranks weren't out of phase!
 
The old California ebike law was 1000 watts. That changed recently. Bikes that were legal before aren't suddenly illegal, I suspect. I would not suggest it but have heard that some people put a 750W sticker on the motor to reduce confusion.

There is a helmet law in California for ebikes. Prior to the recent change it applied to all ebikes (prior to the class system). Now it is just for the 28 mph ebikes as I recall.

Falling over at zero speed and hitting your head can easily kill you, why invite attention and not wear a helmet? Let's not start a helmet discussion in this thread, there are plenty of those elsewhere.

There are also age limits for California ebike riders, I don't recall the details, but look it up. That has been a major problem in Israel.

A quality controller or Cycle Analyst has settable current limits.
 
Alan B said:
The old California ebike law was 1000 watts.

I wasn't aware of that either. Do you have a reference to it? Maybe it was a local city ordinance.

My current understanding (pun intended) is that any motorized bike or scooter in California was subject to DMV regulations until 2016 when A.B. 1096 defined, albeit poorly, an "electric bicycle"

Helmets only apply to Class 3 ebikes, that can go up to 28mph. Helmets are required for kids, and have been for some time. Not sure if there's a definition of a "helmet" anywhere, and I've read about some cool "airbag" helmets in Europe but, I agree, that's for another thread.

Back to limiting the current - a motor running on 48v would have to be limited to 15A to comply. Will cops now be required to carry multimeters? The rollout of body cams in the LAPD hasn't gone so well... :roll:

Edited to add LOL to the pedals spinning around! :lol:
 
amberwolf said:
Especially since other things, like this could come up: "fully operable pedals" is itself not defined.. Does "operable" mean they spin around? Or does it mean they are fully attached to the frame to support the feet? Or does it mean they drive a wheel via a chain? What about belt drives? Or shaft drives? Or series-hybrids where the pedals turn a generator that powers a motor? ;)
Well back in the day when petrol powered mopeds were actually mopeds (50-60 years ago) it generally came down to being able to move the bike on pedal power alone. For many of them it was the only way to get the smokey 2 cycle petrol motor running as well. Thus there was no conflict over the definition.
 
There must be a way to look up changes to California DMV regulations. It was in the DMV code before the 2016 changes, though it was not clearly written. Ebikes were 20 mph 1000W max and helmets were required. Definitions of bicycle helmets likely fall to Federal requirements rather than state. I've never heard of enforcement, aside from traffic regulations. Police would not carry a meter, they'd just confiscate anything suspected of breaking the rules and have it dyno tested. In reality they just aren't interested unless you put a gas motor on a bicycle. Then they get very interested.
 
Alan B said:
There must be a way to look up changes to California DMV regulations. It was in the DMV code before the 2016 changes, though it was not clearly written. Ebikes were 20 mph 1000W max and helmets were required.

I was reading the text of the Assembly Bill (https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201520160AB1096) to try to determine exactly what was meant by the speed limits when I found the reference to 750w. All of the affected Vehicle Code sections are referenced and there is no mention of a prior 1000w limit. That's why I thought it was either non-existent, or a local ordinance.

Alan B said:
In reality they just aren't interested unless you put a gas motor on a bicycle. Then they get very interested.

I imagine the same applies to rocket motors, more's the pity... :D
 
I believe the AZ legislation site also contains an archive of changes to the law, so perhaps the CA site does as well?


Regarding the pedalling thing, I brought it up because there *are* states that define very specific things about a bicycle, such as how the seat attaches or the kind of seat, which make recumbents and other bikes fitted with a non-standard "saddle" (like the noseless seats on a number of commercial crankforward types) not a legal bicycle, by definition. I doubt anyone enforces that, or even cares, but the law is there and gives them a reason to stop a rider and enforce it if they choose to.

Some even do some defining of what the frame looks like.

Some don't even mention pedals at all, or really do much to define a bicycle, "assuming" that "everyone knows" what a "bicycle" is. ;)


I can't find any single site that lists these legal definitions of a bicycle, though this site
http://bikeleague.org/StateBikeLaws
at least has each state's other bicycle-related laws, with links to the actual state's source laws for the most updated stuff. So if you're curious, you can look thru there to see some of the things lawmakers have thought were important about what a bicycle is, and isnt'. ;)
 
That's a useful site, thanks!

One thing I noticed: California doesn't have a law about riding on sidewalks but Santa Monica does. When my son was younger he was hit by a cyclist barreling down the sidewalk outside the library. I've never ever seen a cop ticket or even stop a cyclist on a sidewalk (or for blowing through a stop sign or red light), so I'm hoping they won't start targeting ebikes here.
 
amberwolf said:
With a few exceptions, stupid people are really the only targets of most law enforcement. ;)

Maybe I'll attach some rocket motors just to see if they pay attention... 8)

I don't think I've ever tried to compute the wattage of a rocket motor. It's not a metric that's relevant in rocketry but the same rules apply (i.e how much work must be done). For example, would a bike with 750w of total impulse be OK?
 
I can shed some light on the "old" Arizona "moped" law and why it has evolved because I was in the thick of it.
In the late '70's, Honda came out w/the first of the Express models, followed by Yamaha w/their QT50 Yamahopper and the Suzuki FA50. These were basicly mopeds w/out pedals and their single speed 49cc engines would propel them to approx. 28 mph. These "nopeds" were a moderate success.
In 1984, Honda introduced a line-up of true motor scooters, that is, they had sm. wheels, floorboards and were encased in plastic bodywork. Ranging from 50cc to 125cc, the line-up was expanded w/ 150cc and 250cc models in '85. But for this narrative, we are only concerned w/ the 50cc models, specificly the ubiquitous Spree and how it fit in w/ Honda's strategy to market scooters.
At $399 MSRP, the Spree was the "entry level" scooter, equal in performance of the nopeds, being if anything, with it's single ratio trans, a bit slower(One mag. tester described it as "having all the zippyness of a speedy glacier").
Although they were promoted as needing no registration, insurance or license(widely and falsely thought by wishful types, that no driver's license was required). Again sales were good, but not great. Certainly not good enough for Honda's liking and I was told later by a Honda Rep. that at this point, it was decided to "flood" the market w/these little buggers w/ the anticipation that the buying public would soon be hooked and move up to the larger models.
Enter the $199 Iowa Spree.
Although I didn't know it at the time, a de facto national moped guide-line was developed based on the moped law in Iowa and when they started arriving by the truck-load at the dealership where I worked, I remember thinking; "Gee, they must sell a lot of scooters in Iowa". They were restricted to 25 mph w/ a smaller muffler and only differed visibly by a Honda decreed red "dot" of spray paint on the underside of the seat(although some less-than-scrupulous dealers skipped this step and sold them for full retail).
They sold like the proverbial hotcakes and soon the U of A campus and surrounding landscape could only be described as "scooter chaos". They rode and parked them on the sidewalks. They rode "two-up". They abandoned them behind the Frat houses at the end of the school year(By now, I had opened a scooter shop and actively became a "dumpster-diver", asking permission from the summer staff). This scene became further exacerbated by the larger CVT equipped scooters, like the Aero 50, that could reach 42 mph(given a long enough straight), but still fell under the 49cc moped law.
The "City Fathers" took note and were not happy.
By the early '90's, graduating students, instead of buying larger model scooters, bought BMW cars instead and the scooter prices went up.
"The "scooter boom went bust".
I sold my inventory to a couple of guys in Mexico, bought a big motorcycle and took a "see America" trip that would last a year.
And the moped laws? The State Legislature, "still w/ a bad taste in their mouths", stiffened the reg.s, although Az., by National standards, is still somewhat liberal.
 
Wow, that's a really interesting perspective. The developers of technology, and their marketing departments, are powerful forces that are usually much more agile than the legislature tasked with regulating them.

I grew up in the UK and could not get a proper driving licence (with a "c") until I was 17. Mopeds were legal at 16. So, lots of 16yos got mopeds, and crashed them. My dad didn't want me to have a moped so we spent the year between 16 and 17 restoring an old Spitfire.
 
AstroKat said:
Wow, that's a really interesting perspective. The developers of technology, and their marketing departments, are powerful forces that are usually much more agile than the legislature tasked with regulating them.
But wait, there's more. Prior to the dumping of the 25 MPH 'Iowa spree' in '84-'87, Honda Corp. was illegally selling 30 MPH Express models in Iowa. They sold like hotcakes because they were cheaper and faster than the 25 MPH European mopeds my father was selling at his dealership.

Amid accusations of illegality, Honda representatives accomplished a sham demonstration in some parking lot that 'proved' the Express really only went 25 MPH. The Honda Express pretty much stole the market from all other moped vendors in Iowa. It would seem the goliath Honda Corp. only backed down to the legal 25 MPH after decimating the competition and viewing 25 MPH as their own internal marketing device.

Interestingly, the Iowa law eventually changed from 1.5 HP & 25 MPH, to no power limit, 30 MPH, and a requirement of a day-glow safety flag. Then, in 2014, the moped speed limit changed to 39 MPH, but they still require a day-glow safety flag. I've tried to research who lobbied for the 39 MPH limit to no avail so far. Its interesting how shielded the workings of the legislature are.
 
So for California, dos the new law say anything about electric mopeds? I had the old Lepton Oxygen, 1800w, registered as a moped, I'm thinking there were no pedals. I think I remember there used to be 2000w being used as a max, I don't remember if that was official or just happening.
 
I've done quite a bit of research into what it would take to register an ebike as a moped, and plan on attempting to register my next build in Indiana.

Federal law defines a "motor-driven cycle (MDC)" as a motor vehicle, that produces less than 5 brake horsepower, having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground. (49 CFR 571.3) An ebike would have to meet the FMVSS for MDCs before it could be registered. I've read through the FMVSS and it should be possible to meet the standards with a bicycle frame. Even if a state defines your ebike as a motorcycle, if it makes less than 5hp it only has to meet the MDC FMVSS

To actually register it, you have to apply for an assigned VIN (sometimes called special VIN or MVIN). This process typically requires a police inspection to ensure you meet all relevant state and federal requirements.

State requirements vary a lot, I've looked into a few states mentioned in this thread (I am not a lawyer, this is just my interpretation of the laws):

Indiana: Indiana has 2 classes of motor-driven cycles. Class B is 50cc or less, and no more than 5hp. Class B MDC's may not exceed 35mph on road (though it may be capable of more). Class A just has to be under 5hp, but requires a motorcycle license and insurance, no speed restrictions. Electric is considered 0cc, and may be registered as class A or B.

California: More than 750w (1hp) is a moped that requires registration. Max power is 4hp (3kw), requires an automatic transmission (mid drives would need to be single-speed), and can not be capable of more than 30mph.

Wisconsin: Wisconsin's laws are a bit foggy. Seems they define any electric moped as an electric bicycle, limiting it to the federal 750w 20mph limits. It may be possible to register as a motorcycle, but a motorcycle requires the motor to be an integral part (not an add-on) and no pedals.
 
Here's a page, still up on the California DMV site link, with various definitions and it also includes the reference to the 1000w and 20mph limit for ebikes that Alan B mentioned earlier in the thread: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/motorcycles/motorcycles

"A "motorized bicycle" is also defined as a vehicle with pedals and an electric motor (not more than 1,000 watts) which cannot be driven at speeds of more than 20 mph on level ground even if assisted by human power. (CVC §406(b))."

However, this section was updated in 2016 and no longer has the reference to 1000w: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=406

So, it does seem that in implementing the new law they downgraded the definition of an ebike not requiring registration from 1000w to 750w.
 
AstroKat said:
Here's a page, still up on the California DMV site link, with various definitions and it also includes the reference to the 1000w and 20mph limit for ebikes that Alan B mentioned earlier in the thread: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/motorcycles/motorcycles

"A "motorized bicycle" is also defined as a vehicle with pedals and an electric motor (not more than 1,000 watts) which cannot be driven at speeds of more than 20 mph on level ground even if assisted by human power. (CVC §406(b))."

However, this section was updated in 2016 and no longer has the reference to 1000w: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=406

So, it does seem that in implementing the new law they downgraded the definition of an ebike not requiring registration from 1000w to 750w.

Yes. Good that you found it. The question is, what happens with the tens of thousands of 1000W ebikes that predate the change?
 
Alan B said:
The question is, what happens with the tens of thousands of 1000W ebikes that predate the change?

Or the ones that have been bought since. It doesn't appear that the kit manufacturers or vendors are paying much attention to the law. The sellers of complete ebikes will have to comply eventually, I suppose.

Back to, what is the definition of a 750w motor...?
 
It has been awhile since I read the updated DMV regulations, but don't they primarily refer to sellers of complete ebikes? Not sure the kit vendors have much to do with it, perhaps they can supply a sticker, but their market is much wider than California. In many cases the kit vendors are not supplying the whole component set, and the controller is programmable so the eventual capability of the system is in the integrator's hands.

As far as motor definitions, there is no clear standard there. DMV regs often are for "continuous output power" in various ways (like drawbar horsepower), and IIRC that was the way the old 1000W was done. Continuous output power requires some further info like ambient temperature and maximum allowable motor temperature to be useful. But the manufacturer has some leeway in their choice here. For example, they might take a 1000W capable motor and mark it down to yield a higher efficiency, or lower operating temperature. We see motors derated for operating in vacuum, for example, since their heat dissipation is reduced. The penalty for marking a motor down is weight.

In the case of the BBSHD, for example, operating it at 750W output is a good way to keep temperatures and gear stress down to increase reliability.

Since the output power of an "electric motor" is dependent on the controller (and battery), a "legal" view might not care about the details, so when they say "750W motor" I would take that as a "750W motor system" and talk about the capabilities of the system as implemented on the ebike in question, and I would take the requirement as "750W continuous output".

It has been my observation that commercial ebikes generally have a peak power capability of about double the continuous rating. So I would expect a "750W motor" to hit temporarily higher power output during acceleration -- at least 1000W and possibly 1500W peak.

This is an engineer's opinion, case law is generally required to sort the legal details out.
 
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