Strange mid drive wiring and new controller help!

SwampDonkey

100 W
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
Messages
227
Hello,

Im trying to figure out this mid drive wiring. The hall wires go through this board and lose continuity on the other side. Im guessing this board has fets that need power to let the current through. Id like to avoid cutting the connector off since I believe the PAS can be used with the new controller. The only wires that dont have counterparts on the other side of the board are the gray and brown. Im guessing these power the fets or something. What would you guys do? Supply power to these wires? If so, what voltage? Is there any troubleshooting steps to give me a clue?
 

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SwampDonkey said:
The hall wires go through this board and lose continuity on the other side. Im guessing this board has fets that need power to let the current through.
I don't actually see components at all on there, other than a yellow capacitor at one edge near the "top", and what may be an optoisolator with six pins (but I don't know what it actually is). There's solder pads for a lot of parts, but nothing on them.

Most likely the reason continuity fails is that the parts needed to get them to the other side don't exist. This probably means the hall sensors signals are not used in this drive.

Id like to avoid cutting the connector off since I believe the PAS can be used with the new controller. The only wires that dont have counterparts on the other side of the board are the gray and brown. Im guessing these power the fets or something. What would you guys do? Supply power to these wires? If so, what voltage? Is there any troubleshooting steps to give me a clue?

Since you haven't told us what system this is, who it's made by, etc., it's going to be tough to help much, as we won't know what to compare it to.

If the system isn't one we've encountered before, there's no certain way to say anything about what connections are for what, or where it is safe to apply voltage, and how much, without reverse engineering (tracing everything out and drawing up a schematic) the parts of the system you are interested in.
 
Most likely the reason continuity fails is that the parts needed to get them to the other side don't exist. This probably means the hall sensors signals are not used in this drive.
I'll get some better pics, but this drive (and motor) do have hall sensors. in the first picture the JST hall sensor connector from the motor to the optoisolator board (seems like that may be what it is) is unplugged so I could check continuity.
>Since you haven't told us what system this is, who it's made by, etc., it's going to be tough to help much, as we won't know what to compare it to.

the mid drive is from an Eprodigy Logan, and the new controller is a 1500W Panalogic. I havent been able to find any technical information on this mid drive, unfortunately.
 
SwampDonkey said:
I'll get some better pics, but this drive (and motor) do have hall sensors. in the first picture the JST connector from the motor to the optoisolator board (seems like that may be what it is) is unplugged so I could check continuity.
I guess you didn't get the point of what I was saying. Based on the pictures provided so far, there's essentially no parts installed on the board to feed a signal anywhere. So even if the system has hall sensors, if they go to that board, they then don't go anywhere else, if the connections have to go thru the components that are not there.

You would have to draw a full schematic of that board's traces, and the wires that connect to the board, to see where each of these things go, to find out if that is indeed the case or not.


We don't know what hte purpose of that board is. Since it doesn't have at least most of the components installed, it's difficult to guess what it might be for. :(
 
I guess you didn't get the point of what I was saying. Based on the pictures provided so far, there's essentially no parts installed on the board to feed a signal anywhere. So even if the system has hall sensors, if they go to that board, they then don't go anywhere else,

The hall sensor wires come from the controller, to that board, then out to the halls themselves. There are an additional 2 wires (gray and brown) that come from that board and originally went to the stock controller.

Im unable to get a signal (continuity) through that board, so it must have some kind of opto isolator or fets interrupting the wire. I'll get some better pics.
 
More shots of the mystery board:
 

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As I said, there's essentially no components on the board (other than a filter capacitor for a voltage supply line, and whatever the H1 and H2 are/were), so there is no path for the signals.

So the halls, despite being present, are not being used, if the components necessary to pass that signal are not present.

What looked like a 6-pin "chip" in the other pics is definitely not, in these better ones. It is two separate components, marked H1 and H2. I don't know what they are (or used to be), but I do see what looks like scorch marks and vaporized metal across the board angling away from them. It is quite possible taht whatever they are (were) they don't work anymore.

Since they are quite large for SMD components (scratch taht, I think they are thru-hole), they were probably intended to handle significant (for their size) current, or voltage. So it's unlikely they had anything to do with passing hall signals, and more likely to do with power (perhaps voltage regulation, or switching the controller on/off, etc).

They could also actually be hall sensor chips, if the board is mounted near to something that rotates or moves that could have magnets embedded in it.


Without a schematic of what wires they connect to, and where those wires go, I couldn't do more than make educated guesses, like the above.
 
amberwolf said:
As I said, there's essentially no components on the board, so there is no path for the signal.

So the halls, despite being present, are not being used, if the components necessary to pass that signal are not present.

What looked like a 6-pin "chip" in the other pics is definitely not, in these better ones. It is two separate components, marked H1 and H2. I don't know what they are (or used to be), but I do see what looks like scorch marks and vaporized metal across the board angling away from them. It is quite possible taht whatever they are (were) they don't work anymore.

Since they are quite large for SMD components, they were probably intended to handle significant (for their size) current, or voltage. So it's unlikely they had anything to do with hall signals, and more likely to do with power (perhaps voltage regulation, or switching the controller on/off, etc).

Without a schematic of what wires they connect to, and where those wires go, I couldn't do more than make educated guesses, like the above.


I saw that burned-looking area, but I dont think its actually damage. The main function of the board is to hold the PAS sensor. I know the hall wires went to the controller but the board is not allowing current to flow trough for some reason. I cant image they would have redundant hall sensors and wiring all the way to the controller for no reason. I think thats what you're saying, but I may be misunderstanding you. I guess I'll bypass the board and continue on.
 
SwampDonkey said:
The main function of the board is to hold the PAS sensor.
If that's the case, then those two parts have to be the PAS sensor, because there are no other parts ont he board, other than the capacitor, to be "held" by the board.

I know the hall wires went to the controller but the board is not allowing current to flow trough for some reason.
Because there are no parts to do it, and no board traces making the continuity.

To reiterate:

As I said, there's essentially no components on the board, so there is no path for the signal.

So the halls, despite being present, are not being used, if the components necessary to pass that signal are not present.

If you want to know what's going on, you have to get a piece of paper and a pencil, set your multimeter on continuity or ohms, and start tracing out everything from each wire to each pad and draw it out.

Then you'll know where the parts were designed to go to make the halls work. (assuming that was the purpose of the stuff that isn't on that board--we have no way to know).

Unfortunately you can't know what the parts were supposed to be, so you can't implement it.

My guess is that board is designed to hold an MCU or other active electronics that do some signal processing between whatever is in the motor that sends a signal, and whatever is in the controller that reads it. What that processing would have been, we can't know, because the parts aren't there to guess from, and there's no design schematic or manufacturer info to know for certain.

If you just wire up stuff that you don't know what it was supposed to hook to, you risk damage to both ends of what you're hooking up, and/or improper operation that can damage components.

Why are you so insistent that the halls must be connected?

If they were not connected before, and the system worked, then there is no reason to connect them now, other than to experiment, with the potential to make the system not work (at all).


But it's your system, and I'll leave you be to do whatever you're going to do.


It's not uncommon for manufacturers to use stuff with parts installed that aren't used, becuase with some things (like halls in a motor) it's cheaper to keep just one module around for all versions, than it is to just install the parts on some units and not others. Then its' also easier to just have the assemblers wire everything on every unit, even if it's not needed for some, rather than trying to train them to do one thing on one version, and a different thing on another, and then have a QC checker down the line that makes sure they did it rigth on each one. If they only have to do one way, they are much less likely to make mistakes.
 
If they were not connected before, and the system worked, then there is no reason to connect them now, other than to experiment, with the potential to make the system not work (at all).

Well, the new controller is sensored. This whole deal started when a friend of mine wanted a new controller. The stock one was built into the battery holder/mount. Some months ago I bought a 52V "Luna hot rod" controller because the original was also a custom KT controller and the connectors looked like they may have been compatible. They werent, and I couldnt get the controller working after trying everything that was suggested. Its in this thread:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1465544#p1465544


So plan B is to try another controller. I found a Panalogic 36-72V 1500W controller at a decent price, so its my new mission to get it working. Hopefully.
 
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