Tucson Death Race 2011 roll call. Results on page 1

[liveforphysics]

This is getting real interesting . Often peoples perspective of what is fast can get in the way of the facts.There is nothing like a race and some data to sort everything out.

I am on the fence about the 3500w RC vs X5 .I have ridden my own 5304 on 72v 50amp controller that 3600w felt strong 40mph top end . Would be great to see some more video of the RC bike .I am thinking 100v and say 50amp controller in a x5. Would be faster top end and accelerate faster than a 3500w RC set up.

I found this one of the bike
[youtube]upnhSu30wm4[/youtube]

Kurt

116v and 250amps couldn't hang with 3500w in an Hxt motor (and a very light bike/rider combo).
It wasn't like I wasn't giving it hell, and they walked away from me.

 

[PaulD]

Paul, if you would go back in time and make that race again, what would you change on the ebike to be more competitive ?

I think my gearing was perfect for the track. I brought along both larger and smaller rear sprockets, but decided what I had was well suited to the length of the straights and speed through the corners. My top speed was 44, and I got there just about 3/4 of the way down the main straight. I wouldn't have wanted to sacrifice this top end to get out of the corners quicker. The flatness of the torque curve helps alot with ebikes. The gassers would benefit hugely with a 3 speed transmission. If that morini was in its sweet spot the whole time, it would be unbeatable.
My main limitation was power, I know I will have to have more power to defend my title! Cornering speed is the next limitation. The 20" wheels and scooter tires might be the way to go. I think my next build (which might not happen for a long time) will be short travel full suspension to get a little extra grip in some of those bumpy corners.

@PaulD...you posted Thud was very quick, he obviously had the power on you but how about the
corners were you able to hang with the ol boy, then just beaten top end on the straights?

It's hard to say... in practice I saw Thud go out and I wanted to follow right behind him, but couldn't get on to the track in time, so I was a corner or two behind him and unable to gain any ground on him. I think he must have been cornering pretty well with the low CG and big scooter tires.

 

[TylerDurden]

my secret weapon went up in smoke on Monday, but the back up plan (only 3kw and pedaling like hell) is in place. I think I've got something that will make it a few laps after dealing with bent jackshaft axles, puffed cells, blown fets, etc.

So... Plan-B was the winner? :lol:

 

[dogman dan]

My vids are dissapointing, but will get some editing done by tomorow and get em up. Only a lap and a half, till I blew it in the heat race. No usable footage from the main, since my cam got smashed.

I'll put a bit of music, so you don't have to hear the motors on the vid. Front and back cams worked at first, so It should edit nice. Too bad I only got a lap and a half.

Dave, you need some real armor. My laydown under another bikes wheels left me unscratched. Real motorcycle gear saved me from roadrash.

I definitely proved that raw speed is useless without the rider skill to go with it. I brought more bike than I could handle, and was flying into the corners too fast for my ability. Then I'd end up overbreaking, and poking around the corners at 25 mph. So I kept parking my bike in the way of the fast guys every corner. I must have been really annoying them as I destroyed my racing line and took worse and worse paths in the corners each lap. Bottom line, the bike was so fast this time it was scaring the shit out of me.

I had too much voltage to measure with my model of CA, 108v at the start line. Since I was seeing 3500 watts at 100v, I estimate my peak watts was in the neighborhood of 4000 , but only on the start line. Exiitng a corner and pulling speed, I think I was pulling 2500 watts or so as I went from 20 mph to 40 mph. About 10 laps of this was enough, with a low tire giving some extra resistance, to let the smoke out of my 2807 9 continent motor.

My top speed on the track was 41 mph on the long 700' straight at the start finish line. With more room, the bike was giving out 47mph.

More that I could ride this time, looks like time for dogman to back off to the 40 mph club, sub 2000 watts, where the hubbies can still last the distance, and cruise the races in the future with the rest of the death race old timers. Sure was fun though, to find my limits, the motors limits, and the limits of power that can be practically run with a front hub. Sure was touchy this time, with as much as 3500-4000 watts pumping through a frontie. 20s is pretty ridable, but with 26s, I was burning a lot of rubber on that front tire. Only one way to find the edge of the envelope, that's venturing beyond. It was fun, and I even survived it.

 

[Kurt]

[quote116v and 250amps couldn't hang with 3500w in an Hxt motor (and a very light bike/rider combo).
It wasn't like I wasn't giving it hell, and they walked away from me.[/quote]

Well I will soon find out. I own a Hxt 80 100 with halls that should be up ad running some time soon. I have a 5304 and will try them both on the same controller and battery at 3600w and see for myself. I am only 145lb to.

Kurt

 

[wineboyrider]

For the record Thud aka Todd didn't make it out of the main race. His controller blew out at the start of the race! I felt so bad for Thud, because he dominated the heats hands down!!!! One of his dual motors went out and he frantically fixed his dual turnigy two speed hobo shifter set into a one turnigy one speed setup! After all that hard work Thud had it all running and then when he started the main his fricking controller went out! I saw him pedaling and thought oh sheiiit! Condolences for Thud he had the baddest ass setup and didn't have a chance to even run
Also want to thank him for offering me some lipo that I was hoping to use as a lipo booster setup, but didn't work out!
Two thumbs up for Thud! Way up!
Thanks bro!

 

[Arlo1]

I have a small collossus im going to custom wind and i will compare it to my x5 as well i planned on the rc motor to be faster but i only think it would be cause of weight savings!
Its rated at 10hp peak and i will probably be able to push it the same as my x5

 

[Arlo1]

So whens the next race?

There's one, April 30 in Detroit... I think Thud And Grindz are going.
http://thunderdrome.com/event-info/

Ok so the next 2 months are out for me whats the scedual look like?

 

[etard]

How did this get turned into an Rc vs. Hub thread? Oh wait, I know how...

Well, lets look at it this way:

Luke's 5305 overvolted and insanely amped couldn't keep up with Paul's stock Turnigy with slightly modded controller. Hmmmmzzz

In retrospective, it's probably a good thing Paul won with a moderately tame and still bicycle looking bike that he actually had to pedal to win. Nothing against the beasts Thud and Luke run, but those aren't really bikes, especially after you put MOTORCYCLE tires on them. I'm just saying, it wouldn't have been good for the sport spanking the sh*t out of the gassers on motorcycles that have a chain and pedals. Why not just retrofit a pedals onto one of those sick ass Motards that were burning up the track in between heats? Essentially, the gassers will win out with a bigger is better attitude, you can't argue with that. Maybe we should put a weight limit on ourselves right at where Paul's bike was this year, so that we can try to improve on last year's performance, not see who can outspend and ghettofy a bicycle into a motorcycle. just my .2 I will be back next year, but I won't be putting motorcycle level equipment onto a bicycle. That's why God invented motorcycles, and motorcycle racing.

Here's some crappy pics, sorry, I usually depend on the girls to take the pics...

 

[etard]

More pics.....

Also, let it be known, the gassers are such a cool bunch of guys to let us nerds race with them, they have really embraced us as one of their own, so lets not get too pretentious that we don't offer the same to them. We really are of the same great community, and probably have equal carbon footprints considering the method by which we charged our batteries, sad but true.

 

[Arlo1]

116v and 250amps couldn't hang with 3500w in an Hxt motor (and a very light bike/rider combo).
It wasn't like I wasn't giving it hell, and they walked away from me.

What if you cooled it better and turned the power way down!!!!
I know first hand that over powering the x5 makes it slower not at first but after a couple runs!
I have seen between 150-180 amps it quits getting faster so runnning 250 was just turning at least 5000 watts into heat!!!
I tested with a little over 200 amps when I first got the 24 fet working and it went like this.
Test #1 Crazy power Wheely with me leaning over the bars and I still had to let off!
Test #2 Same as the 18 fet was when it was on the bike as you road it!
Test #3 Slow as shit I thought I wrecked something but it was just hot realy hot!!!
This all happened in a 20 second time frame going back and forth on the road.
SO what Im trying to say the start would be when you had the most power then every corner it would be hotter and slower and it would only take 3-4 corners to be to hot for you to have much power left.
Im not trying to say the x5 is the best motor but I think it could have won with some WAY better cooling (holes alone are a waste of time) and some lower power settings. Like maybe 100 amps max continious from the battery!
I will be building a rc bike I have most the stuff to do it so soon very soon but the x5 will be my back up bike and I will make sure its as fast as possible and bullit proof (or should I say LUKE PROOF) :wink:

 

[PaulD]

In retrospective, it's probably a good thing Paul won with a moderately tame and still bicycle looking bike that he actually had to pedal to win. Nothing against the beasts Thud and Luke run, but those aren't really bikes, especially after you put MOTORCYCLE tires on them. I'm just saying, it wouldn't have been good for the sport spanking the sh*t out of the gassers on motorcycles that have a chain and pedals. Why not just retrofit a pedals onto one of those sick ass Motards that were burning up the track in between heats? Essentially, the gassers will win out with a bigger is better attitude, you can't argue with that. Maybe we should put a weight limit on ourselves right at where Paul's bike was this year, so that we can try to improve on last year's performance, not see who can outspend and ghettofy a bicycle into a motorcycle. just my .2 I will be back next year, but I won't be putting motorcycle level equipment onto a bicycle. That's why God invented motorcycles, and motorcycle racing.

Well said, and I totally agree. As we keep upping the power, our bikes go from super fast bikes, to being slow motorcycles. I don't know exactly where the line should be drawn, but I think a weight limit is the easiest way to keep things in the bicycle realm.

 

[Arlo1]

In retrospective, it's probably a good thing Paul won with a moderately tame and still bicycle looking bike that he actually had to pedal to win. Nothing against the beasts Thud and Luke run, but those aren't really bikes, especially after you put MOTORCYCLE tires on them. I'm just saying, it wouldn't have been good for the sport spanking the sh*t out of the gassers on motorcycles that have a chain and pedals. Why not just retrofit a pedals onto one of those sick ass Motards that were burning up the track in between heats? Essentially, the gassers will win out with a bigger is better attitude, you can't argue with that. Maybe we should put a weight limit on ourselves right at where Paul's bike was this year, so that we can try to improve on last year's performance, not see who can outspend and ghettofy a bicycle into a motorcycle. just my .2 I will be back next year, but I won't be putting motorcycle level equipment onto a bicycle. That's why God invented motorcycles, and motorcycle racing.

Well said, and I totally agree. As we keep upping the power, our bikes go from super fast bikes, to being slow motorcycles. I don't know exactly where the line should be drawn, but I think a weight limit is the easiest way to keep things in the bicycle realm.

The thing with the weight limint is it hurts the hub motor guys.
I can just put collossus in a light "bicycle" and kill everything.
My collossus weighs 1/4 what my x5 does so........

 

[wineboyrider]

Well said, and I totally agree. As we keep upping the power, our bikes go from super fast bikes, to being slow motorcycles. I don't know exactly where the line should be drawn, but I think a weight limit is the easiest way to keep things in the bicycle realm.

+1 yep.

 

[Hyena]

Yep, agreed. Limiting power would probably be sensible as people start getting crazy trying to out do each other.
I guess it's not serious enough to warrant dynoing the bikes but something like a 10hp limit would be reasonable given the circumstances.
Like you say, too much more and you're getting into motor bike territory and with higher speed up goes the injuries too.

So Paul, what did you do with the gasser engine you won ?
Convert it into a generator for charging at next years race ? :lol:

 

[AussieJester]

In retrospective, it's probably a good thing Paul won with a moderately tame and still bicycle looking bike that he actually had to pedal to win. Nothing against the beasts Thud and Luke run, but those aren't really bikes, especially after you put MOTORCYCLE tires on them. I'm just saying, it wouldn't have been good for the sport spanking the sh*t out of the gassers on motorcycles that have a chain and pedals. Why not just retrofit a pedals onto one of those sick ass Motards that were burning up the track in between heats? Essentially, the gassers will win out with a bigger is better attitude, you can't argue with that. Maybe we should put a weight limit on ourselves right at where Paul's bike was this year, so that we can try to improve on last year's performance, not see who can outspend and ghettofy a bicycle into a motorcycle. just my .2 I will be back next year, but I won't be putting motorcycle level equipment onto a bicycle. That's why God invented motorcycles, and motorcycle racing.

Well said, and I totally agree. As we keep upping the power, our bikes go from super fast bikes, to being slow motorcycles. I don't know exactly where the line should be drawn, but I think a weight limit is the easiest way to keep things in the bicycle realm.

Agreed... I would say 35kilo(77lbs) to 40kilo(88lbs) maximum weight I'm sure yours would weigh in under that easily too PaulD? you wouldnt be alot over 30kilo if any would you? 20ah worth of batteries and you 7ah for the main? so no need for ridiculous capacity.

KiM

 

[Doctorbass]

116v and 250amps couldn't hang with 3500w in an Hxt motor (and a very light bike/rider combo).
It wasn't like I wasn't giving it hell, and they walked away from me.

What if you cooled it better and turned the power way down!!!!
I know first hand that over powering the x5 makes it slower not at first but after a couple runs!
I have seen between 150-180 amps it quits getting faster so runnning 250 was just turning at least 5000 watts into heat!!!
I tested with a little over 200 amps when I first got the 24 fet working and it went like this.
Test #1 Crazy power Wheely with me leaning over the bars and I still had to let off!
Test #2 Same as the 18 fet was when it was on the bike as you road it!
Test #3 Slow as shit I thought I wrecked something but it was just hot realy hot!!!
This all happened in a 20 second time frame going back and forth on the road.
SO what Im trying to say the start would be when you had the most power then every corner it would be hotter and slower and it would only take 3-4 corners to be to hot for you to have much power left.
Im not trying to say the x5 is the best motor but I think it could have won with some WAY better cooling (holes alone are a waste of time) and some lower power settings. Like maybe 100 amps max continious from the battery!
I will be building a rc bike I have most the stuff to do it so soon very soon but the x5 will be my back up bike and I will make sure its as fast as possible and bullit proof (or should I say LUKE PROOF) :wink:

I second that Arlo,

I think this is simply not the best way to push too much power on a X5 that at 116V and 5303 would be tuned to max efficiency at... 60MPH and more!.....

The report you did Luke about how the X5 was are not showing the reality of the endurance of an X5 can do.

Efficiency of an X5 at 116V on 20" for an average speed of (30Mph like mentioned PaulD) is not very good...

I still dont understand why you built a kit that top 60mph+ on a race track where the average speed was 30mph

Yes.. I know that the 5303 was not your the motor.. and that it was a spare motor, but the rewound motor you made few days ago was also toping at 60MPH... :?

I use 3 differents X5 motor ( 05, 03 and 02) that i never saw any smoke coming from them.. and yes.. I push up to 250A phase curent many times on them..... Controller blow.. YES.. but not the motor!.. and my 5305 now have been in service for 4 years now and still have the same output power after all abuse i did to it... and you know i'm abusing it.. but i watch it!

BUT I WATCH THE TEMPERATURE!!! :wink: .. and my thumb rule is to never to higher than 140 celsius wich is the normal temp i get at 3000W continuous in it. I already burst to 180 for few seconds and it never complained

This is the trick!!!

Boosting everything without monitoring that is just not the way to go! You know that Luke :wink:

You would have probably saved the X5 and finished in the top 3 if you would have not abused the X5 like that...

I'm pretty sure if you would have used a STOCK 5305 on 20" wheel with a controller set to 50A batt and 150A phase current and a BBQ temp monitor on the winding that can inform you when reduce the throttle during the race, you would never had any problem!

Also.. I think that the Kelly is not the best to use with a DD motor like the X5.. I personally have the KBL 120V 220A ( bought from Methods) and at low rpm the motor vibrate alot and seem to have very poor efficiency..
Methods also tested that combo few years ago and also TOASTED his X5 he got 420F on the winding...

I would have be there yesterday with my mongoose 100A 100V 20" 5305.. it have an excellent handling even though his heavy weight.. I would have saved the reputation of those great X5

Doc

 

[etard]

The thing with the weight limint is it hurts the hub motor guys.
I can just put collossus in a light "bicycle" and kill everything.
My collossus weighs 1/4 what my x5 does so........

Aren't you guys putting lightening holes on those things, or are those just there so we can see the magic pixies and unicorns playing? :wink:

 

[Kurt]

116v and 250amps couldn't hang with 3500w in an Hxt motor (and a very light bike/rider combo).
It wasn't like I wasn't giving it hell, and they walked away from me.

What if you cooled it better and turned the power way down!!!!
I know first hand that over powering the x5 makes it slower not at first but after a couple runs!
I have seen between 150-180 amps it quits getting faster so runnning 250 was just turning at least 5000 watts into heat!!!
I tested with a little over 200 amps when I first got the 24 fet working and it went like this.
Test #1 Crazy power Wheely with me leaning over the bars and I still had to let off!
Test #2 Same as the 18 fet was when it was on the bike as you road it!
Test #3 Slow as shit I thought I wrecked something but it was just hot realy hot!!!
This all happened in a 20 second time frame going back and forth on the road.
SO what Im trying to say the start would be when you had the most power then every corner it would be hotter and slower and it would only take 3-4 corners to be to hot for you to have much power left.
Im not trying to say the x5 is the best motor but I think it could have won with some WAY better cooling (holes alone are a waste of time) and some lower power settings. Like maybe 100 amps max continious from the battery!
I will be building a rc bike I have most the stuff to do it so soon very soon but the x5 will be my back up bike and I will make sure its as fast as possible and bullit proof (or should I say LUKE PROOF) :wink:

I would agree with the above. its like throwing a truck turbo on a stock 1.6L 4cyl motor and expecting it to work well. You have to get the correct balance . going over the top hurts performance more than anything.

The same could be said for the RC drive .The 80 100 was most likely happy at 3500w.

Really to have a good comparison. What would be great is to take the controller and battery off the winning bike and plug it into a bike running a X5. It would be real interesting.This is what I plan to do .

kurt

 

[John in CR]

...Essentially, the gassers will win out with a bigger is better attitude, you can't argue with that.

In a 10 mile race I think today's battery tech makes it much closer than you think. Just look what Paul D did with less than half the power of the stinkbikes.

Maybe we should put a weight limit on ourselves right at where Paul's bike was this year, so that we can try to improve on last year's performance, not see who can outspend and ghettofy a bicycle into a motorcycle....

BS. Only a bike weight to rider weight limitation can be fair. Otherwise it's whoever puts the lightest rider with some race competence on a bike that doesn't break. Also, Thud proved that crazy power is possible at low weight anyway...Controller tech hasn't caught up yet to Thud's demands. Lastly, weight limits force anyone wanting a competitive bike toward RC type rigs and the dependability just isn't there yet. Plus, this year was still close enough that maybe we get a reprieve and one more year of unlimited. Limit discussions are appropriate only after ebikes dominate the podium.

 

[Hyena]

a BBQ temp monitor on the winding that can inform you[/u] when reduce the throttle during the race, you would never had any problem!

hah, would you really take any notice of that at the crucial point of the race though ? If you're out riding by yourself then sure, but when you're racing and you're neck and neck and the adreneline is pumping I know I'd ignore it. I'd rather risk crossing that finish line on fire than back off
"opps, winding temp is getting a bit high, better back off a bit" NEVAH!

I know when I used to race my car (which was also my daily driver) I used to develop an instant and total disregard for the engine, gearbox, etc. I'd drive sensibly (pretty much ) there and back but as soon as I hit the track the horns came out

I agree on the battery thing though. Not that they're super heavy anyway but with current lipo tech there's no need to be lugging around a big pack. Sag is minimal on high C rate packs and it sounds like a 15ah pack would be plenty (10 at a pinch) And they can fast recharged track side anyway.

 

[rodgah]

i agree with you jay,

temperature monitoring and racing just dont go together. If it cant be ridden as fast as you possibly can then it isnt competitive IMO. You dont see a gas biker looking down at his engine on the straights thinking jeez im holding this thing flat alot, better back off so i dont seize/crack a reed/do a big end. A r/c bike with modest power level won, thats awsome and its good to hear a real world comparison from luke with a seemingly no expense spared hub setup. Im not sure what its going to take to settle this hub vs rc debate but it seems even videos and races dont seal it. Having ridden one of the most powerfull ebikes on this site i'm not supprised that an ebike takes the crown. The power level that Thud is running is IMO more than you can get to the ground in a meaningfull manner....which is possibly the limit powered bicycle racing can get to. Im not sure what went wrong and im eagerly waiting thudsters diagnosis, but myself i know that as far as the electrics side of a twin 3220 hv160 setup is more power than you will ever need on a bicycle and is fairly well proven to be reliable. hopefully the next race will see more entrants of both variations. Maybe Doctorbass and Blackarrow can make the journey down to show the forum how much faster their ebikes are compared to the others.

Cheers

 

[Kurt]

With not restrictions the fuel burning bikes would be out of control.

What's stopping them from throwing a 80cc dirt bike motor in the frame. Even the late 70's, 80cc 2 stroke dirt bike motors like the Rm80 were pumping out 15hp at 11,00rpm stock. Then there is a 5 speed gearbox to put the power through.

I like the idea of unlimited as people get creative. that said it is a bicycle race so some different category could be needed. What about recumbent trikes? they would de well on the corners.

Kurt.

 

[Hyena]

COMING SOON TO THE NEW LARGE SCREEN, COLOUR CYCLE ANALYST
Warnings for racers:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Doctorbass]

i agree with you jay,

temperature monitoring and racing just dont go together. If it cant be ridden as fast as you possibly can then it isnt competitive IMO. You dont see a gas biker looking down at his engine on the straights thinking jeez im holding this thing flat alot, better back off so i dont seize/crack a reed/do a big end.
Cheers

The temp monitor i'm using have a programmable alarm.. so forget about keeping an eyes searching for the small LCD!! Once i hear the alarm i know i need to reduce power.

I think it is better to finish the race with a working motor than pedaling for teh rest of the race wiith a blown motor

Maybe Doctorbass and Blackarrow can make the journey down to show the forum how much faster their ebikes are compared to the others.

That would be a real pleasure .. here is an exemple of top speed:... 66mph
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5qqNMfIZe8

As for Black arrow.. he now use a BMC wich is good but not as powerfull as when he had his 95R AGNI !!! Believe me... he had beat a honda 450cc motocross in both direction 2 times!