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Tucson Death Race 2011 roll call. Results on page 1

Kurt said:
With not restrictions the fuel burning bikes would be out of control.

What's stopping them from throwing a 80cc dirt bike motor in the frame. Even the late 70's, 80cc 2 stroke dirt bike motors like the Rm80 were pumping out 15hp at 11,00rpm stock. Then there is a 5 speed gearbox to put the power through.

I like the idea of unlimited as people get creative. that said it is a bicycle race so some different category could be needed. What about recumbent trikes? they would de well on the corners.

Kurt.

thats my point kurt. It is the geometry of the frame that ultimately restricts the class. twin hxts create 15KW easy, hence making power more like a 125cc but more torque. Let me tell you 15kw is a scarey ride, feels like 1000ccs on a 50kg frame, its just explosive power. Sure you could extend the frame, make it not flex...its not going to add much to the weight and its still going to be a hand full.

lol jay is that fast and the furious

Doctorbass said:
The temp monitor i'm using have a programmable alarm.. so forget about keeping an eyes searching for the small LCD!! Once i hear the alarm i know i need to reduce power.

I think it is better to finish the race with a working motor than pedaling for teh rest of the race wiith a blown motor :roll:

and if we are talking about real racing, no one backs off. that is a compromise that makes the bike not competative.

Doctorbass said:
That would be a real pleasure :mrgreen: .. here is an exemple of top speed:... 66mph

top speed is fine, but its the acceleration from the corners that matters. Notice the gassers are geared for way less than they are capable of. Thats because they want to stay in their peak power band for most of the track....if that means topping out on the straights then so be it.
 
Doctorbass said:
That would be a real pleasure :mrgreen: .. here is an exemple of top speed:... 66mph

top speed is fine, but its the acceleration from the corners that matters. Notice the gassers are geared for way less than they are capable of. Thats because they want to stay in their peak power band for most of the track....if that means topping out on the straights then so be it.[/quote]


Acceleration is really not a problem.

On my 94.3kmh setup here what reported my Garmin GPS back in 2009:

0-40km/h in 1.7sec
0-72km/h in 4.3sec using the drag bike setup ( 15kW)
0-80 in 6sec
0-94.3km/h in a bit more than the 1/8 miles line
1/4 miles in around 20.5sec

5302 on 20"
18 fets controller
100V 172A max
total weight 230lbs including me



The only problem.. is that i live far from these race event!!!!!!!...
 
thats my point kurt. It is the geometry of the frame that ultimately restricts the class. twin hxts create 15KW easy

I would like to see the dyno results for 15kw. If they can I wouldn't say it would be easy. I would say that's just before they break.

Kurt.
 
Kurt said:
thats my point kurt. It is the geometry of the frame that ultimately restricts the class. twin hxts create 15KW easy

I would like to see the dyno results for 15kw. If they can I wouldn't say it would be easy. I would say that's just before they break.

Kurt.


You think 100v and 100amps per HXT motor is just before they break? They start to get warm, but they love it.
 
Kurt said:
thats my point kurt. It is the geometry of the frame that ultimately restricts the class. twin hxts create 15KW easy

I would like to see the dyno results for 15kw. If they can I wouldn't say it would be easy. I would say that's just before they break.

Kurt.

my bike pulled greater than 15kw peaks consistantly with very little heating to the motors and none to the controllers. Im 100% sure they could do it. Im sure a hub could pull 15kw too, but how much of that is heat.
 
I just would have thought at 100v ...13,000rpm I know its less under load. But that big skirt bearing would be throwing out a lot of heat.

If you can really pump 10kw into them stock without any issues then I am surprised.

Kurt.
 
Kurt said:
If you can really pump 10kw into them stock without any issues then I am surprised.

Stock_80_100_130kv_Turnigy_CC_Data_Logging_10k_Watts.jpg

^^Data logging from my Castle Creations HV160
running stock 80-100 130kv Turnigy on 44v lipo :wink:

They can do it, for how long i don't know but damn its
fun on the bike LoL

KiM
 
Rodgah
Twin 3220 and HV160 is probably reliable because the system isn't being stressed, which is a good thing. My issue with it is price, because you're looking at Agni territory.

DoctorBass,
One big thing you aren't considering is rider weight. Put 50lb in a backpack and take your bike out for that kind of stop and go repeat abuse (what accelerating out of a curve 140+ times in 15 minutes?), and you're likely to have failures too. Luke's 250A was motor side, which he stated before, so he was running somewhere probably in the 100-150A range. Also, Luke was probably running a hand-me-down 5303 that had previously been abused and already had big holes in the side cover instead of a real air flow strategy. If if the motor was in tip-top condition though, all it takes is pushing a motor slightly past it's threshold to quickly push it into overheating, which both LFP and Dogman found out the hard way. Dual hubbies or an actively blown hubbie were the right hub answer this year, but no one had one.

I agree with you about the temp sensor, but I also agree with everyone else about it's warning during the race. Where it's needed and would benefit the most would be during practice and finding the right controller settings to run, but there was a huge shortfall in prep time. During a race the only thing that would work is a temperature shutdown, but even as frugal as I am, I wouldn't want one on my bike.
 
To be fair to the hubs, I weigh 225lbs right now, my suit is at least 10lbs, the bike was 90lbs, that's 325lbs.

I had the biggest downhill brakes I could buy, and they faded a number of times on me. Other guys running smaller brakes didn't have fade, because they weren't a 325lbs package trying to aggressively late brake.

Same goes for stress on the motor. My x5 might have held up just fine the whole race with a 140lbs rider, and might have been able to stay up with the other bikes.

When you're a big fatty racing feather-weights, it's tough to make an apples-to-apples comparison with how a motor is going to do in various situations.

To be fair, my fat ass on a heavy-ish bike with a massive controller was kinda like a "perfect storm" type situation to burn up a hub and not have it perform at it's best.
 
rodgah said:
twin hxts create 15KW easy, hence making power more like a 125cc but more torque. Let me tell you 15kw is a scarey ride, feels like 1000ccs on a 50kg frame, its just explosive power. Sure you could extend the frame, make it not flex...its not going to add much to the weight and its still going to be a hand full.
Those videos of your bike with that insane uncontrollable power show what you can really get from RC motors. Obviously that was too much power for your frame but a single well sorted one would go well. Better still, run 2 but power them conservatively. I was really looking forward to see what thuds bike could do but sadly it crapped out early. If Paul managed to win with a single motor at 50 amps, imagine what a destroyer thuds bike would be powered by 2 of them. With the HV160s conservatively set around 100 amps it'd run all day and pwn the field.
 
Luke...I am so curious to know how ThuD could pop a HV160 on a parade lap and could only come up with two scenarios, You saw Thud re-configure his drive, was he able to assemble the 2 speed with one motor and retain a freewheel setup? Also, the 2 speed was obviously geared too run with dual 80-100-180kv motors so it would have been high, when re-configured, how did ThudSteR go about re-gearing the bike so a single Turnigy could cope....or was this what ultimately saw its demise? Poor Thud prolly still in the air or driving the few hundred miles home from the airport? Would have LOVED to have seen ThudSTeR turnig laps when it was working, i heard on the other site there was a e-bike monoing on the main straight i'm guessing it was Thud?

KiM
 
I'm alive, though I'd like to hacksaw my right leg off just about halfway down the shin. :( It got caught under the bike as I went down, I think, twisted backwards based on the bruises (which happen to match part of the frame). I am having trouble remembering exactly how everything went down once the crash began. LFP's jacket and gloves saved me from severe road rash, though, and my minimal and old knee/shin protection saved my from much worse damage to my lower right leg. I hope I didn't tear them up; I never got a chance to look at them after I took them off to check myself out.

Race was fun while it lasted, but I didn't even make it two laps into Heat B1 (the first one I could ride in, as we arrived too late for the early ones or any practice runs). After the crash I wanted to get back in but couldn't do it.

The problem is as LFP pointed out the steering, adn there are two independent problems that resulted in my crash, really. He had his GF take a couple of pics of him on CrazyBike2 as he was rolling in the pits, and you can kinda see him decide something in the second one--probably that it is called Crazy for a reason. :lol:
DSC04269.JPG

DSC04270.JPG

I screwed up the geometry when I hurriedly added a second larger headtube for the 1-1/8" threadless Suntour fork I'd gotten the day before (day of? I forget already), being in too much of a hurry to think right, I guess, and just putting it parallel to the original, instead of pointing it down more (angled farther forward at the top).

So I have to cut it off and reweld it back on at the correct angle (which I will have to see if I can measure off the old setup that I have to put back on tomorrow so I can ride it safely to work Tuesday). If I can ensure the contact patch ends up in teh same place as the old one, theoretically I think it should steer the same as it did before I messed it up, or at least not get the shimmies.
DSC04287.JPG
The other problem is the steering tie rod angles/distances from centers. Basically I accidentally increased the steering ratio, so that it takes much less handlebar turning to cause the front wheel to turn a lot, like having power steering in a car vs manual. So it is far too twitchy and reactive now. Plus when LFP was going to ride it, the tie rod front end was loosened at the eyebolt stem into the rod, and it wiggled a LOT, making eerything worse.

Combine the two problems and it results in a nearly unrideable (very unstable) bike, which I kept on the track by brute force for almost two laps, losing control as I braked hard right at the harpin entrance to turn 13 (same place I slid out in the gravel at Undead 2010, when I was going way too fast to make the turn). I wasn't even going maybe 20MPh right at that moment, decelerating still, when I lost it. You can see me tapping the brakes trying to control it just before the turn where I lost it, in Dave's (FR31) video linked last page or two of the thread. (yes, I have brake lights :))


At first I was just gonna get up and go again, but I couldn't put any weight on the foot, and the way it had been twisted under me I thought I'd broken my shinbones or something and just couldn't feel it yet, As I was helped off the track, I could start feeling the bad stuff. By the time I was back in the pits and trying to get the gear off and then my shoe and sock so the guy (sorry,c an't remember his name :() could see it, it was hurting enough I couldn't even get myself off the bike even with my cane. Wasn't very swollen yet, and there was no apparent external injury at all.

Man, I wanted to just get back on the bike and go back out there, but I couldn't. I knew that if I had to put a foot down for any reason, it would be the right one, and I'd snap it off like a twig (or wish I had). :( I spent quite a while trying to decide if I could do it anyway, but it only got worse, then the actual race was called and I couldn't even hardly get out of the chair, and thus had it decided for me (even though I think I'd already given up).

The bike itself is basically fine, although a piece of brakelight cover plastic broke off (took a while to actually come off):
DSC04286.JPG
Plus the mount of the headlight cracked so it wobbles around:
DSC04285.JPG
and I scraped up the right edge of the fork crown pretty deeply (at least a mm or two of material is gone in those spots):
View attachment 2
I might've bent the right crank a little bit, but I can't see for sure and it still clears everything, so I don't care. :) This bent cargo pod rail is more serious, but once I am able to use a crowbar or long tube to lever it back outward, it'll be fine too:
DSC04273.JPG
As hard as I went down I'm surprised there isn't more damage to me or the bike. :shock:


Right now I can't actually move the foot itself more than about half an inch in any direction. Well, if I use my hands to move it I can, but that is a very bad thing. :( I'll live, though. I started out the day of the race walking on a cane already, but left needing a wheelchair, really, and not even having crutches.

Evoforce loaned me his while we were back at his place troubleshooting his battery problem that kept his big pack out of the race, and until we were done and back at my place where I transferred into a wheelchair I picked up from Freecycle a while back (knowing I'd need it eventually). Gotta dig out my own crutches (originally bought from thrift stores/etc. to make things out of hte tubing) tomorrow, so I can at least walk while at work.

Never been on crutches or a wheelchair before, and I gotta say that they both suck; the crutches are ok but hurt after a few minutes, the wheelchair sucks because I can't maneuver it inside my house mostly due to dogs in the way and too little space to turn around in, etc., with all my stuff arranged the way it is (where of course I can't move most of it now).

This is as of an hour ago, before I laid down, finally, after getting home about an hour before that, and placating a bunch of viciously slimy-tongued dogs that immediately assaulted me upon arrival. ;)
DSC04294.JPG
DSC04293.JPG
DSC04295.JPG
Ibuprofen is helping a little bit, as is swapping ice/heat in and out every 20min or so, but it still feels like I have an SLA on my leg instead of a foot. Or rather, like I dropped one ON my foot so hard that it melded with it. :roll:

I dunno if I can do my job at all like this, and am still trying to decide if I will use a walker, crutches, or wheelchair the first day or two (at least), to get around the store.

Still, I'd do it again (though if I could do it over, I'd just leave the stupid fork and headtube alone and use the crappy junk I started with on there--at least I KNOW that worked fine, even if the fork legs wiggled back and forth during braking inside the suspension tubes. :lol: ).


Big thanks to LFP for the room and stuff; both Evoforce and I were totally exhausted and it'd've sucked to drive back without sleep. Not sure if it would've even been possible. Neither of us woke in time for the swapmeet--oh, well, I couldn't've walked around in it anyway, as my foot and leg were already stiff balloons by then, and with only the one cane to walk with, my right hand was killing me from taking all my weight while my left knee was telling me "stop or die" at every hop.


Great fun meeting everyone that was there; wish there had been lots more time to talk (and less noise as I couldn't hear over the engines most of the time). Thanks to SoSauty for the charger (I'm sure I can figure out what's wrong with it's power supply and fix it). BTW, if anyone found a loose CA with shunt cut off of it, I think that was dropped somewhere (I didn't see it in the box so maybe it didn't even make it in there?).

Thanks to Evoforce for the transport and company; also interesting and fun seeing his home projects like the solar stuff, etc., when we stopped by his place on the way back to check out the battery pack issue.

Thansk to whoever gave me the trophy anyway, despite not even actually making it to the race; though it doesn't quite feel right since it does say "best finish" recumbent...I didn't finish and it sure wasn't best. :lol:
DSC04282.JPG
I hope I didn't forget anything; I'm still so tired but can't sleep yet. Dogs will keep me up for a while just glad I'm back since I am hardly ever away from them more than a few hours at a time (for work, mostly). Now if I can just keep them from trying to sleep on my foot/leg....
 
AussieJester said:
Luke...I am so curious to know how ThuD could pop a HV160 on a parade lap and could only come up with two scenarios, You saw Thud re-configure his drive, was he able to assemble the 2 speed with one motor and retain a freewheel setup? Also, the 2 speed was obviously geared too run with dual 80-100-180kv motors so it would have been high, when re-configured, how did ThudSteR go about re-gearing the bike so a single Turnigy could cope....or was this what ultimately saw its demise? Poor Thud prolly still in the air or driving the few hundred miles home from the airport? Would have LOVED to have seen ThudSTeR turnig laps when it was working, i heard on the other site there was a e-bike monoing on the main straight i'm guessing it was Thud?

KiM


Yes, Thuds bike was wheelieing, and it was very very powerful when it was running right.
When we re-configured, we kept the same gearing, as we had no other options.
RC controllers are kinda flakey fussy things, and that doesn't lend well towards racing.
The sensored ebike.ca controller PaulD ran was smooth and reliable and ran fast as hell on 66v. Those motors just go nuts on higher voltages when things are setup right.
 
etard said:
The thing with the weight limint is it hurts the hub motor guys.

Aren't you guys putting lightening holes on those things, or are those just there so we can see the magic pixies and unicorns playing? :wink:
And play they do, with glowing pixie dust and blowtorches. :p

BTW, on the weight limit, if one is implemented then unless it's something like "bike can't weigh more than it's rider", then I'm out after that, as my bikes are not light, primarily because they're so long and big, plus having to use big heavy batteries to have enough power to do anything with it. :( I think my rideable frame alone on CB2 is probably 60-80lbs, including everything except motor and batteries and controller. :oops:

(unless someone has a spare carton of LiPo laying around :lol:)

Hubmotors...well, that' is a problem on CrazyBike2, as that's all I've got for it right now (love to put the powerchair thru-gears setup ack on, but I think the frame just can't be stiff enough for it, which is why I started the new bike to fix that...but even so, the PC brushed motor and gearbox weighs at least as much as the 9C does. :shock:) But the new bike will be thru-gears, possibly with a small geared hubmotor outside of the wheel and ventilated.
 
Yea amberwolf I'd highly recommend going and getting that X-ray'ed.

If it starts swelling significantly definitely. :shock:

Considering you cant move it on your own I bet you at least have a hairline fracture or bruised the bone, and getting at least a splint for it could go a long way to helping it heal/helping you move.


My friend just a few weeks tripped on the ball while playing soccer and landed on his wrist a little bit funny, it hurt a fair amount at the time but he felt he just sprained it. The next day it had swollen a fair amount, so he decided to go get it checked out. Turns out he broke it clean in two but it didn't move out of place at all thankfully.


Shucks on the crashing bit that is never fun :cry: At any rate heal quick!
 
Yea amberwolf I'd highly recommend going and getting that X-ray'ed.

I second that. Given that you cant weight bear or rotate the foot is not a good sign.

The medical staff will let you know what the best options are for fixing it up.
Letting it heal on its own without knowing whats going on may be the worst option.

Greg
 
+1
Get it looked at Amber.
I thought I noticed in the first photos AJ posted you had a cane before you'd even stacked. Is that an existing issue from an old injury or one more recently ?

I only just saw the video - lucky it was captured on video! It looked pretty low key but sometimes the simplest falls can do the most damage.
 
One problem with a weight limit is it turns things into a $$ game. A watts per pound limit might make more sense (total weight rider plus bike). The ICE displacement limit is more like a fixed watt limit which gives advantage to light riders. A 7.5 kw output limit or 10kw input limit would be simpler to do.

Amberwolf, I hope you are able to get that foot looked at to make sure it is going to heal properly and quickly.
 
So far, the death race is limited only to, "can be pedaled".

Heres my crash highlights. Lucked out and got a second crash in the rear cam too. [youtube]kpGg26gUV-8[/youtube]

Never can seem to get the embed to work first try.http://www.youtube.com/user/Dogman5018?feature=mhum#p/a/u/0/kpGg26gUV-8

If you look at the footage closely, It was just stupid for me to try to pass that guy on that corner, especially in just a heat race. Later when you see the whole lap and a half, you'll see I let him piss me off, and I lost good judgement. I had the heat to easily take him again every lap in the finish line straight, and had no need to try to take him in the corner.

You can see how I tried to own him on the inside, and only squared off that corner making it inevitable that I could never stay on the track. Passing on the tightest corner on the track was stupid for sure. You pass slow guys there constantly, but passing a guy thats dueling with you there was dumb. Dogmans complete lack of racing experience shows again. First thin out of that guys mouth was " learn the right line dummy". No shit.
 
First of all, congrats PaulD, well done mate. (Commiserations to all other ES'ers)

Secondly, kudos to the smoky guys for organising the event; Dave31 must be a top bloke

Thirdly,
Ypedal said:
... if it heals incorrectly you will be limping for a lifetime..
I can vouch for this one. The second time I got hit by a car (1974) my ankle blew up to about twice the size of Amber's. Doc said badly sprained and I've put up with an on-and-off limp ever since. Heal quickly Amber.

Fourth, I looked at the photo of the morini (is that the motor or the frame?) that finished 3rd, and it looks like a custom frame made especially to use that motor, but still a road frame. For next year, I would be thinking about ample rubber, ample brakes, a 2 (or more) speed box and a custom frame built to go round corners fast. It's a race after all :roll: More weight over the front and a lower CoG would be a start.

Not trying to buy into a RC / hub tiff, but whatever is reliable at 3 to 5kW in a frame built to go round corners, grip and stop would be very competitive. The fastest bike doesn't always win, just the fastest one that's still running!

Lastly, thanks to all posters for the pics and videos. Much appreciated by us Aussies

Cheers,
GT
 
Certainly wished I could have been there, but my business obligations dictated otherwise.

Congrats to those who ran, those who hung out, and those who finished! A lot was certainly learned from the event, and it has me pondering what kind of bike (and controller) is really best for this sort of racing. Obviously we can't just throw unlimited power at things and expect parts to last, and the track will put a limit on what is useful. Over the next few years we will find out what that sort of curvy tight track needs!
 
Alan B said:
One problem with a weight limit is it turns things into a $$ game...
Very true, unless the weight limit is set about 100pd. Even then, money can make a better use of any weight limit.

As we have seen, power is not so much of an issue. Paul was far from being the most powerfull bike on the track, he was lightweight but his power to weight ratio can still be obtained with a hub motor. I have to agree that a geared reduction setup has an advantage in racing conditions, but given the fact that Paul won with lesser power, it is obvious that riding skill is the main issue on that track full of amatuer racers. He could have won with any bike with similar torque at the wheel, providing it's properly balanced, and reliable to finish the race. Given the fact that he was new to the track, his pilot skills are definitely what other racers must first try to mimick, for his bike setup can be easily outpowered but that would not make a sure win.

Paul, I say it again: You're my hero today. A mountain racer showed the crawling crowd, what flying is. :twisted:
 
Just got a chance to back read the last few pages. Man, you guys really crack me up talking about weight or hp limits on the Death Race.

The DR is not some kooked up rules crippled "make my 250 watt ebike look good" race. It's an unlimited, build it as fast as you can and see if you have the stones to stay in the saddle race. Screw up and you either have a bike that can't go the distance, or a bike you don't have the balls to ride anymore, or as I did, both. :lol:

IT'S THE DEATH RACE BABY! The competition is definitely heating up, I sure felt like many of the gas bike riders spent the winter making thier bikes a LOT faster. Alex of course, was damn fast with his new custom frame and new morini. I's already a $$$ contest now, but rider skill is always going to be the vital ingredient as Paul showed us all. Wow, what a display of rider skill that was. I saw little of it, since I was trying so hard not to kill myself out there in the main. I did get a good view of Thud's rider skills the day before, and that boy can sure ride too! Too bad the bike blew chunks. Future wins in the DR are going to take a ton of prep, and good testing on a kart track.

I'm never going to really know if I simply brought a hubbie overvolted too much to last, or whether I rode with a flat tire causing the motor to spend too much time going from 15 mph to 40. I know for sure that last fall, bouncing that same motor from 30 mph to 35 mph, I used an astonishingly small amount of power.
This time, slowing to 15 around those bends, I was pounding that motor with heat. I was running 26s lipo, with a 40 amp 12 fet Lyens controller using the stock settings.

Luke says his brakes were still inadequate. Imagine how I was feeling trying to get slowed down from 40 mph with rim brakes. :shock: At one point in the first lap of the main, the bent up rear wheel locked up and I was sliding sideways in the straightaway with about 10 gassers on my ass about to run me down like a skunk in the road. I was stinking up the place with those crappy brakes once I bent the wheels.

I still have this feeling that a hubbie could win it, but lots more experimentation would be needed to find the sweet combinations of winding, rim size, volts and amps. The big problem is testing at home around the neighborhood doesn't even come close to simulating the track conditions. Wish I lived closer to Tucscon.

For future knowledge, You can get on the track with your motorized bicycle any time the track is open, and nobody is using it for karting at the moment. The track manager is super cool, and if you had the time, you could go to Tucson a week early and try many combinations of motors controllers and batteries on the track before selecting the one to run in next years DR.
 
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