Tucson Death Race 2011 roll call. Results on page 1

[Ykick]

So whens the next race?

There's one, April 30 in Detroit... I think Thud And Grindz are going.
http://thunderdrome.com/event-info/

Interesting, 'dunno what to think of this from the "rules" section -

"Electric mopeds of similar power to a 75cc engine or smaller will be accepted on a case-by-case basis"

Reading the MB board it 'sounds like somebody's trying to organize a So Cal event. We should all do our best to report such events as we find them IMO.

AW - please heal well and quickly. No apology about your trophy - I didn't see any bent finish more than you did. And you totally got bent!!!

Can we assume PaulD will now resume his day-job as jockey? LOL... I'm afraid he's set the bar to where this is not gonna be a large, heavy man or bike game anymore! 'great weekend and win for Paul and all the participants!

Thanks again to all who shared this truly "epic" weekend with the eBike community!

 

[dogman dan]

Front cam was fork mounted. It got scraped off in the impact with the rider in the Kawasaki shirt. The cam is toast. Joined another club with Hyena, the smashed my camera club. Sucked to join the crashed at the death race club.

I was wearing a motorcycle helmet, racing gloves with carbon knuckles, motorcycle riding jacket with numerous hard shell inserts and padding, and racing pants with built in knee and thigh pads. That crash felt like a drop to a wrestling pad. I've hurt a LOT more after hitting water at 30 mph windsurfing.

It helps a lot too, that I practiced laying down motorcycles so much when I was in my twenties. Dave (fairracing 31) got some road rash in his laydown in the same corner. I don't think he's wearing near enough armor for the speeds he's riding. The DR contenders are going fast enough now to need real leathers. That's why I put $$ into some.

 

[Ariane]

Maybe Doctorbass and Blackarrow can make the journey down to show the forum how much faster their ebikes are compared to the others

For the records I don't like X5 motors, I have (2) projects in my mind for new ebikes but I don't have any money to build them, the Black Arrow was a prototype.

The acceleration last year on this ebike was slow from 0-40 Km/h and I wasn't able to ride more then 10 Km at 60 Km/h because this motor getting too hot. I have reached 92 Km/h as top speed but this ebike is heavy and the wheel base is too long for racing.

The only hub motor, I like to try on this ebike is the hub scooter motor from John in CR. I weight also 225 lbs and like Luke says a very light ebike with a very light pilot is clearly an advantage in this kind of race.

Doc his far better pilot then I am and he his also a very light and nimble pilot. I like ebikes for bicycle path, off road riding, and being able to go almost everywhere and smoking car for dead stop, with a long range ebike.

PaulD great race, congratulation and nice ebike :wink:

Good day!
Black Arrow.

 

[Hyena]

The cam is toast. Joined another club with Hyena, the smashed my camera club

Atleast you capture the incident, my files were corrupt from the impact.
I'm guessing from the date stamp it was one of those mini little $10 cameras ? I killed 4 of those before I gave up and bought a gopro. 3/4 I didn't even rough up, they just stopped working for no reason.

Good to hear you weren't hurt in the tumble. The front cam made it look dramatic but I guess once the camera is off and doing it's own thing anything could be happening (like when I rode under that branch and ripped my helmet off, it looked like I took a real tumble and battering but I was still riding away :lol: )

From the gasser videos they looked quite slow off the line. Was that the case or was it just the sound of their engines that took a while to rev up that made them sound that way. They sounded like they were slipping a clutch for the first few seconds off the line

 

[wineboyrider]

One problem with a weight limit is it turns things into a $$ game...

Very true, unless the weight limit is set about 100pd. Even then, money can make a better use of any weight limit.

As we have seen, power is not so much of an issue. Paul was far from being the most powerfull bike on the track, he was lightweight but his power to weight ratio can still be obtained with a hub motor. I have to agree that a geared reduction setup has an advantage in racing conditions, but given the fact that Paul won with lesser power, it is obvious that riding skill is the main issue on that track full of amatuer racers. He could have won with any bike with similar torque at the wheel, providing it's properly balanced, and reliable to finish the race. Given the fact that he was new to the track, his pilot skills are definitely what other racers must first try to mimick, for his bike setup can be easily outpowered but that would not make a sure win.

Paul, I say it again: You're my hero today. A mountain racer showed the crawling crowd, what flying is.

You guys don't need a lot of speed to finish well. You need a bike that is light, fast, and easy to handle. If I would have had a nice track bike with disk brakes and a little bit more battery I would have moved up a couple notches. That plus work on my riding skills as this is the first time I ever raced. Evoforce would have got the trophy I got, but he ran out of juice, because he went on a heat run before the race and didn't have time to recharge. That's because they got there late. I made a run with Dogman's 48v ping and finished slower than with my 36v ping. I think I was riding better in the race, because Dogman and I had a chance to make a run on the track the day before and a heat run the day of the race. Winning is awesome, but if you want to win your going to pay some money trust me. :wink: :wink: :wink:
On a side note: I rode my ebike on an awesome no motor vehicles allowed bike path the morning of and almost had as much fun as at the deathrace! The path was awesome and I was going 30mph (no one on the path) and then I come up to security so I laid off the throttle and pedaled and they weren't even looking at me they didn't know i had a motor! LOL. The path goes everywhere in Tucson just make sure your stealth, because if you try it with a stinky your screwed..

 

[dogman dan]

Wineboys trophy is a great example of how bringing a bike you can handle, and that will finish the death race can be the perfect formula.

I brought a bike too fast for my riding skills, that ended up smoking the motor anyway. No trophy for me, but Wineboyriders daily driver took a trophy by being the second place finisher in the ebike class. He got the statue since they already gave the big trophy to Paul.

Loved Live for Physics entry of a last minuite build. Got some great vid of him looking like a clown bike rider on it. Luke said it was the worst handling two wheel ride he'd ever thrown a leg over. The pedals ended up way too far off the ground on that bike throwing his center of gravity off. But he got though that corner where I was laying er down just fine. That took some riding skill!

Those of you who weren't there, you cannot imagine the difficulty of riding that track unless you've ridden another kart track yourself. Those corners are really tight, and you come screaming into them. Rider skill really shows on that track.

 

[PaulD]

The thing with the weight limint is it hurts the hub motor guys.

BTW, on the weight limit, if one is implemented then unless it's something like "bike can't weigh more than it's rider", then I'm out after that, as my bikes are not light, primarily because they're so long and big, plus having to use big heavy batteries to have enough power to do anything with it. I think my rideable frame alone on CB2 is probably 60-80lbs, including everything except motor and batteries and controller.

(unless someone has a spare carton of LiPo laying around :lol

The (proposed) rules might get a bit complicated, but we could have +10lbs allowed if your running NiCads, +20lbs if you have Lead acid... maybe +10lbs if you have a recumbent.. just thinking out loud... I would be on the fence if we wanted a weight allowance for hub motors - they could probably be lightened up quite a bit, and you don't have all the extra chain(s), sprockets, bearings, shafts, etc..

 

[Arlo1]

There is to much bench racing going on here. the more weight limits you put on it the more it will cost everyone to be competive.
I say leave it alone and lets work on filling the podium with ebike riders, then the gassers will lern to join us in the end that what the electric revaution is about.

 

[Ypedal]

I say build it, bring it, race it !...

until there are so many bikes that they need to be seperated it's not worth the hassle of extra rules for something called a " Death Race " lol...

the spirit of the thing is to go it on the cheap, welding stuff together etc.. less rules.. more fun.

 

[theRealFury]

I say build it, bring it, race it !...

until there are so many bikes that they need to be seperated it's not worth the hassle of extra rules for something called a " Death Race " lol...

the spirit of the thing is to go it on the cheap, welding stuff together etc.. less rules.. more fun.

+1 to that, the main thing that makes me interested in the death race is that 90% of the bikes look like they already been in about 10 crashes before racing lol. Kinda like a post apocalyptic mad max esque scene with all the custom built bikes hotrodded to the max. Puting rules on it and limits will just turn it into a normal bike race, and thats not what i get the impression this is. This race is more of a "Win the race, or DIE TRYING!" kinda thing where anything goes.

 

[dogman dan]

No plans to turn the Death Race into a you can't bring something faster that what I brought race.

The gasoline bike guys have been running this race for years as a "mad max" style deal for years and like it that way.

It's the DEATH RACE BABY!

Death race refers to the original format, that was a long uphill run on a highway. Motors died all along the route right and left and the winner was the guy who's motor didn't die. That still happens today, you should have seen the number of guys franticly wrenching on bikes after the first heat. This morning the motorbicycling forum is full of posts about who broke what sat night.

At the same time, the organizer is definietly making everybody welcome at the death race. Even the wackiest homebuilt bike is allowed on the track, and nobody tells you you should go away for being carefull and slow. The best viewing place for the race is astride a slow bike, out on the track. 8)

 

[GCinDC]

This thread made my weekend! Wished I was there!

PaulD, HUGE Congrats! Do you have a build thread somewhere?

LFP, Your last minute prep, the glowing dyno, and warrior finish were fantastically entertaining.

Dogman, kudos for getting everyone revved up for it, everything, and owning up to your limitations. That's courage in my book.

Amber, Elevate that ankle! I've broken and sprained my ankles countless times, and after getting an xray, ice and elevation (& ibuprofin) make a huge difference. For sleeping, I put a big sofa cushion at the bottom of the bed, below the knee and the overnight elevation about the heart makes a huge diff.

It was great to see you all in proper racing gear, but I didn't see many boots? Probably not easy to pedal with, but probably necessary, huh?

I will certainly be thinking about coming next year!

 

[bigmoose]

I say build it, bring it, race it !...

I agree with "Y"!

Me thinks we need to critically dissect how the race unfolded this year. The results frankly surprised me. ... That said, by my training, I try to be "ruthlessly honest" with data, because "the facts" or as my uncle would say, "da faks don't lye!" ... he sometimes got the grammar wrong, but the thought right.

I recommend we try to get a good read on the bike and riders mass/weight and tabulate total mass/bike mass and total mass/peak watts ratios for consideration. I think Luke's total mass/peak watts needs to have some correction factor on it; because it appears to me he saturated the stator iron well before peak power was reached.

The post race data is trending in the direction of more consideration of the following in our race bikes:
1)Brakes
2)Frame engineering for handling/cornering
3)Sticky tires
4)Total mass/bike mass ratio and total mass/peak power ratio. (That's hard for a guy named BIGmoose to write... puts me on the sidelines forever.)

... than we thought before the race. Peak power seems to have been a bit subordinated from the #1 spot we had it before the race. Except for PaulD, who more optimized his race "system."

Thud has always been hard on sensorless controllers. So even though that outcome was very disappointing to Thud, the results were in "family" with the way he sets up his "system" for peak performance. In this case, Thud's advancement is limited by current controller capability. We need to find Jeremy and entice him to roll Thud a custom controller!

It would be good to compile a two lists of one liner's from all participants on the data above, and their comment on what worked/what didn't work. Like when dogman said(I think): "I reached the limit of front drive traction, and the bike was hard to control above this limit."

What do you think? This could evolve into a loose set of design criteria for the 2012 Death Race?

A PS... a couple pages later in this thread the guys are talking about the sound of a race... let's be honest, there is NOTHING like a Keith Black blown rat motor coming up on the cam to make you feel alive, and take notice!

 

[RWP]

Way to go ES guys. Congrats to PaulD. Hoping Amberwolf heals real fast!
So much to learn...I am planning to be there next year. Looking forward to a SoCal race.

What tires are you guys using that you think are relatively safe at 50mph? I am going to post a new thread relating to this in a few minutes.

 

[johnrobholmes]

Great summation Bigmoose. My thoughts mirror yours as well. Peak power isn't the biggest factor. It is cornering and system reliability!


I'm "lucky" enough to be around 150lbs, which would be light enough for being competitive with minimal power. With some diet I can get down to 140, but I don't like forgoing food that much. :lol:

 

[RWP]

I am thinking of why one of Thud's controllers might have died on the line up for a race...

I think I cooked a sensorless controller by rolling my bike backwards to turn it around. It's my perception that back driving one of our sensorless motors creates some kind of controller killing current or spike.

Is there anything to this?

 

[John in CR]

By how much did Paul's winning time best last year's time?

 

[etard]

After Thud went boom, an LFP fried the motor there was really only 3 bikes running at the top speeds, the rest of the guys were at least half a lap behind if they didn't get lapped. So I would say it really is not that competitive. It is a fun race and harkens back to the days of ol when people greased thier hair and were generally considered hooligans on loud bikes. I would say it was more about racing those similar in speed to you rather than winning for 90% of the guys out there. After I slept on it, I agree no limits is better. It's still just for fun, so let's keep it that way. I'm just glad I don't weigh 225 lbs. :wink:

I'm down for the SoCal event, I've already said that the Perris Kart track would be a great location for it with plenty of camping and even fishing at the Perris lake close by.

I don't think anybody times it John.

 

[RWP]

There is a go Kart track in Ventura: http://www.jimhallkartracing.com/

Might be more centrally located up the coast. I will look into this possibility for us if there is any interest.

 

[dogman dan]

No watt data from me, but I easily see why I cooked my motor. I started with 4.17v of 26s lipo and ended with 3.77v of 26s lipo. The pack size was 15 ah. That sounds like a lot more power poured into a 9c motor in 20 min than I would ever have dreamed would work. I had calculated that my ah use would be half that in the main event, based on the numbers from the race last fall. All that poking through the turns meant a lot more load getting back up to speed on the straights.

Pauls energy use numbers indicate two things to me,

1. He's no fat old man like me, I weigh 180 or so.
2. It takes a lot less energy exiting the corners if you are hauling ass through them. If you don't slow down, you need very little throttle to max out before the next braking point.

You tube is cruddy today, so no music for now. You'll just have to listen to gas engines till I get the vids edited.

 

[mdd0127]

This was all soooo cool! I'm building some kind of contraption to bring to next years one for sure. I'm ending up with lots of spare goodies from the prototype build!

One tip for Amberwolf: well two....get it looked at......the second one is get a snowboard boot for the bum ankle. A couple of seasons ago, I was snowboarding and had to decide between an oncoming, airborn snowmobile, and a 30 foot cliff. For some reason I took the cliff and yard darted pretty hard. My ankle looked just like yours and I mean exactly, same bruise pattern, intensity. I couldn't walk on it AT ALL without the snowboard boot for two or three weeks but I worked every day. I got a little ankle brace from walgreens, and put the boot on over it. It was like a cast. Best of luck healing up!

I watched the crash footage a few times and rider error wasn't the issue there. Your frame had some oscillation going on in that turn. I call em the wiggle shts. Caused me to eat pavement many times for sure! That's something even pro race teams battle. You did awesome!

I'm really bummed that Thud didn't get to fly a wheelie down the stretch in the main. I teared up a little when I found out he was out....honest...
I think that electric motors don't like to be hooked to the same load unless some pretty sophisticated software is synching things up. Maybe a slipper or some kind of differential between the two would have helped?

Come on controller gurus! We all need you!


And to PaulD.......Awesome building and riding! Way to put things in perspective for everyone! Racing is a package deal and you had yours together for sure. See ya on the track maybe next year!

I had so much fun watching/refreshing/whatever, I HAVE to get to one soon!

I am also all about keeping it Mad Max style. If any weight limits are put on it, it will bump a lot of other riders out of the competition just because of their size, and or size of their wallets. Maybe a "value" limit or something like that would be a good idea. Something like every racer has to agree to sell their bike to any other racer for $2k or some other preset amount after the race. Kind of like how demolition derbies work. It keeps things fun and will keep people from showing up with $50k prototypes and ruining everyone else's day. I like how it's current form seems to support innovation on the cheap and ballz to the wallz.

 

[theRealFury]

Well, been trauling youtube for footage most of the last couple of days and finally found this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1leG-fcDzg&feature=channel_video_title

Fairracing31, if your on here i hope you dont mind me posting your vid but was one of the best ones for action i have found.

for the first 2/3 of the race you get a good view of PaulD hanging it bigtime with the blue overalld gasser, sadly they get out of vew for the last 3 or 4 laps so no overtake footage but some good idea of how he was taking those corners... he almost reminds me of Valantino Rossi the way he was hanging off the side of the bike into the curves Awesome skills and huge stones to boot! I had a bigger EV grin watching that than i have ever got from my own bike .

Congrats PaulD.

 

[dogman dan]

Wineboy is seen at 5:20, and 8:40. Getting lapped only twice in the first try with a daily rider is pretty good. About how I did last year with my aotema bike.

Luke is seen twice I think too, but the best view is at 10:40.

I can't seem to get on you tube, to load my last vid, or a vid for the stills.

 

[amberwolf]

Luke said it was the worst handling two wheel ride he'd ever thrown a leg over.

Until he got on CrazyBIke2 with my moronically-implemented last-minute fork changeover. :lol:

Those of you who weren't there, you cannot imagine the difficulty of riding that track unless you've ridden another kart track yourself. Those corners are really tight, and you come screaming into them. Rider skill really shows on that track.
No kidding. Even at 25MPH or less, at least two, three of those corners are pants-filling if you're not expecting them, especially if you've never ridden anything that fast except downhill straight.

The (proposed) rules might get a bit complicated, but we could have +10lbs allowed if your running NiCads, +20lbs if you have Lead acid... maybe +10lbs if you have a recumbent.. just thinking out loud... I would be on the fence if we wanted a weight allowance for hub motors - they could probably be lightened up quite a bit, and you don't have all the extra chain(s), sprockets, bearings, shafts, etc..

Well, even so, that'd still put things like CrazyBIke2 out. LIterally, it weighs as much as I do. Probably more at the race itself, because even with the pods taken off, it had added battery to the tune of probably 3x what the pods weigh.

*maybe* the new bike will weigh less, but given what I have to make things out of (whatever is laying around, instead of ideal materials and methods), that's no certainty. It is quite possible it will be *heavier*.

I could never ride an upright bike in turns like those; I'd have to slow down to 15MPH or less for even the most gentle of the turns, and practically stop for the hairpins; I just don't have the physical ability to handle the bike when I'm that high up. But on the much lower type I am on, I can do a lot more, and still keep control of it. At least, when I haven't totally screwed up the geometry and steering of it.

One tip for Amberwolf: well two....get it looked at......the second one is get a snowboard boot for the bum ankle.

I had actually been pondering some old ski boots I have around here that I had modified for a robot costume many years ago. I cut them so that while they are still very stiff laterally, they pivot just enough forward and back to allow walking (slowly), and would probably still allow pedalling.

They most certainly would have prevented my injury, and I will be wearing them or something very like them next time.

LFP's jacket and gloves saved my upper half from injury and road rash...if I had only taken the same kind of care/precautions with my legs.... So let this be a lesson to you all.

As soon as I can today, I am going to wait down at the ER to try to get in and onto AHCCCS (cuz I can't afford to have this looked at otherwise); i just have to wait for a neighbor to be available to take me down there and pick me up afterward, as I do not wish to leave CB2 out there for the several hours I will probably be sitting waiting to be seen.

Then it's back to work tomorrow, probaby in my wheelchair the first day; gonna have to rig up an AussieJester-style clip hitch for the chair on CB2.

I watched the crash footage a few times and rider error wasn't the issue there. Your frame had some oscillation going on in that turn. I call em the wiggle shts. Caused me to eat pavement many times for sure! That's something even pro race teams battle. You did awesome!

Yeah, as I noted in my earlier wall of text, I screwed up the geometry and steering by a last-minute fork change; the bike had no such problems before I did that, even at much faster speeds.

 

[wineboyrider]

Hope you get better Amberwolf....