Rollodo
1 kW
I don't get it - are you praising the design? Is this water bottle / thermos practical or not? Is it possible to fit in some quality A123's in there?greenspark said:
Water bottle battery
- Thread starter mud2005
- Start date
greenspark
100 W
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2011
- Messages
- 176
Mine is 36v 8.8 ah from BMS http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/362-bottlle-battery-case-for-cylindrical-cell.html for $199 plus $90 shipping. If you google bottle battery you will see them with higher ah on Alibaba, but I'm not sure how they stuff more batteries in the case.
From a non-technical perspective, I think the look is great, far better than the rack mount or the ebike design that is stretched to put a battery behind the seat post (which on our Greenspark tends to loosen and rattle).
From a performance standpoint, you are better asking Cell Man who indicates the electronics and design of the batteries are not the best out there. Having bought a MAC and the 48v A123 triangle pack from him, I trust his judgement and if you are in the battery market, you are probably better off buying from him than the rolling of the dice you get buying from the Chinese vendors (who sell and send whatever is on the shelf from the supplier and do not replace bad stuff they send). I note that in a comment in this thread from January Cell Man will be coming out with a better technology in a 75 mm diameter bottle design. I sent him an email asking for pics.
So, yes it is practical (it works for my Slow-Bike requirements to go into the village and enjoy Slow Food). I am finding that 36v is good for Slow Biking whereas on 48 volt you really end up with a skinny moped.
Yes I am praising the aesthetic design, and no, I have no idea how many A123's would fit. I expect less batteries would fit because the case is designed for the older technology batteries. I posted the pic because an earlier post commented that the other style looked bigger. The best way to visualise is to see it on a bike. The bike is a Globe Live1 size large.
From a non-technical perspective, I think the look is great, far better than the rack mount or the ebike design that is stretched to put a battery behind the seat post (which on our Greenspark tends to loosen and rattle).
From a performance standpoint, you are better asking Cell Man who indicates the electronics and design of the batteries are not the best out there. Having bought a MAC and the 48v A123 triangle pack from him, I trust his judgement and if you are in the battery market, you are probably better off buying from him than the rolling of the dice you get buying from the Chinese vendors (who sell and send whatever is on the shelf from the supplier and do not replace bad stuff they send). I note that in a comment in this thread from January Cell Man will be coming out with a better technology in a 75 mm diameter bottle design. I sent him an email asking for pics.
So, yes it is practical (it works for my Slow-Bike requirements to go into the village and enjoy Slow Food). I am finding that 36v is good for Slow Biking whereas on 48 volt you really end up with a skinny moped.
Yes I am praising the aesthetic design, and no, I have no idea how many A123's would fit. I expect less batteries would fit because the case is designed for the older technology batteries. I posted the pic because an earlier post commented that the other style looked bigger. The best way to visualise is to see it on a bike. The bike is a Globe Live1 size large.
ohzee
100 kW
Geeesh.. and amped sells something similar for 600+ shipping and say they don't over charge.
lordkenyon
1 mW
Kicking up bit of an old thread, but I did find the case for these sold separately:
$26 does not seem too bad for a locking case
http://ebike-bmsbattery.com/index.php?url=dispro.php%3Fid%3D114
$26 does not seem too bad for a locking case
http://ebike-bmsbattery.com/index.php?url=dispro.php%3Fid%3D114
Hi everyone,
I hope, I'm in the right section.
I'm looking for a battery or a mount for a battery to put in the 700C frame of my girlfriend.
I would like to use the holes for the bottle holder.
I was thinking maybe a 36V 10Ah battery. She could get a second battery and always have one in the charger (assuming it switches off automatically)
On longer trips she could bring both.
On a side note, I am not yet certain what motor / controller to get.
I'm looking at the Tongxin adn Xinfeng motors. Also, I have no idea, where to put the controller yet. Any ideas?
I hope, I'm in the right section.
I'm looking for a battery or a mount for a battery to put in the 700C frame of my girlfriend.
I would like to use the holes for the bottle holder.
I was thinking maybe a 36V 10Ah battery. She could get a second battery and always have one in the charger (assuming it switches off automatically)
On longer trips she could bring both.
On a side note, I am not yet certain what motor / controller to get.
I'm looking at the Tongxin adn Xinfeng motors. Also, I have no idea, where to put the controller yet. Any ideas?
I found something, which might hit the spot.
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/509166190/Water_Bottle_li_ion_batteries_11.html?s=p
Now, I only need to find a place, where to put the controller.
Also, can anybody recommend "fire and forget" charger for such a battery?
I want my girlfriend to be able to change the battery whenever she gets home and put the charged one in the car and not have to think about unplugging the battery from the charger.
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/509166190/Water_Bottle_li_ion_batteries_11.html?s=p
Now, I only need to find a place, where to put the controller.
Also, can anybody recommend "fire and forget" charger for such a battery?
I want my girlfriend to be able to change the battery whenever she gets home and put the charged one in the car and not have to think about unplugging the battery from the charger.
dogman dan
1 PW
After about six months of reading this site, you'll have all your answers. It's becoming a bit of a too much info deal.
We have a wiki under construction with most of the basics covered so far.
There are bottle shaped batteries, that work good for a small wattage motor like you mention.
Personally, I like to mount controllers behind the seat. Either on the front of a rear rack battery box, or just on top of the rack by itself. If the rack is not a ready made fender, I put something on the bottom of it to block spray. In much rain, the controller can be covered with a bag or something, but puddles from other than rain are a daily deal. So in my dry hot climate, I want the controller out in the wind, but not getting wet from riding through a puddle.
Battery chargers do shut of automaticly, unless you home built something sketchy . It can be a good strategy to have two if you need to get back out fast. A 15 ah battery could be a good option as well, giving less strain on the pack for potentially longer life, plus more range every ride. A good battery vendor will supply the right charger for it as well.
On the list of recomended battery vendors from one to ten, Alibaba rates down in the cellar, around 100.
Look at pingbattery.com for a starting point. What continent you are on affects our vendor recomendations.
For a square battery, it's easy to make an L shaped piece of metal to support the pack, then bolt that to bottle mounts on the downtube. Then secure to the platform by a variety of methods. I like and use small metal tackle or toolboxes to protect and carry my batteries a lot.
We have a wiki under construction with most of the basics covered so far.
There are bottle shaped batteries, that work good for a small wattage motor like you mention.
Personally, I like to mount controllers behind the seat. Either on the front of a rear rack battery box, or just on top of the rack by itself. If the rack is not a ready made fender, I put something on the bottom of it to block spray. In much rain, the controller can be covered with a bag or something, but puddles from other than rain are a daily deal. So in my dry hot climate, I want the controller out in the wind, but not getting wet from riding through a puddle.
Battery chargers do shut of automaticly, unless you home built something sketchy . It can be a good strategy to have two if you need to get back out fast. A 15 ah battery could be a good option as well, giving less strain on the pack for potentially longer life, plus more range every ride. A good battery vendor will supply the right charger for it as well.
On the list of recomended battery vendors from one to ten, Alibaba rates down in the cellar, around 100.
Look at pingbattery.com for a starting point. What continent you are on affects our vendor recomendations.
For a square battery, it's easy to make an L shaped piece of metal to support the pack, then bolt that to bottle mounts on the downtube. Then secure to the platform by a variety of methods. I like and use small metal tackle or toolboxes to protect and carry my batteries a lot.
dogman dan
1 PW
That's the bottle battery. But that vendor will sell you ten of em.
A few other highly recomended battery vendors, Emissions Free, and Grin Cyclery where you should go read the FAQ's. In the category of USA located vendors, get the bottle battery from Amped Bikes.
And not so high on the list, but liked by some BMS Battery.
A few other highly recomended battery vendors, Emissions Free, and Grin Cyclery where you should go read the FAQ's. In the category of USA located vendors, get the bottle battery from Amped Bikes.
And not so high on the list, but liked by some BMS Battery.
Hey,
thanks for your detailed reply.
I've seen some batteries that also have the controller built in, which would be an excellent option.
It won't have to be a performance bike for her so more than 500W peak power will not be required.
I myself can deliver a sustained 200-250W, which means that any type of motor-controller-battery combination should enable us to ride together and give her and me a good workout (Mind you, we still have the contents of the picknick basket to distribute and even the odds)
I use alibaba as a first point of reference to see, what actually exists just like ebay.
Getting 2 chargers is especially a good idea because she can bring one, if she visits a friend and wants to plug in there.
For fixture, I'm thinking the holes of the bottle holder and some metal zip ties to keep the holder in place. It needs to be completely removable.
For the controller I was thinking the handlebar. The switches and the throttle are there and it would just require one cable down to the motor and back to the battery.
thanks for your detailed reply.
I've seen some batteries that also have the controller built in, which would be an excellent option.
It won't have to be a performance bike for her so more than 500W peak power will not be required.
I myself can deliver a sustained 200-250W, which means that any type of motor-controller-battery combination should enable us to ride together and give her and me a good workout (Mind you, we still have the contents of the picknick basket to distribute and even the odds)
I use alibaba as a first point of reference to see, what actually exists just like ebay.
Getting 2 chargers is especially a good idea because she can bring one, if she visits a friend and wants to plug in there.
For fixture, I'm thinking the holes of the bottle holder and some metal zip ties to keep the holder in place. It needs to be completely removable.
For the controller I was thinking the handlebar. The switches and the throttle are there and it would just require one cable down to the motor and back to the battery.
http://ecowaybikes.en.alibaba.com/product/331602622-209715234/Electric_Bike_Kit.html
This actually looks very nice. When the cells die (hopefully in a few years), I could maybe exchange them.
By the way, I'm located in Germany and will very likely have to buy from abroad because bike components are very expensive here
This actually looks very nice. When the cells die (hopefully in a few years), I could maybe exchange them.
By the way, I'm located in Germany and will very likely have to buy from abroad because bike components are very expensive here
dogman dan
1 PW
Our best recomended vendor for straight from china is Emissions free. English speaking, good customer service though the distance remains a big problem. His muxus gear drive kit is the sort of thing you are looking at. His battery is one of the best in the world, most just carry it in a triangle frame bag.
Not sure who is the vendor for the bottle battery in Europe, but you might look and see if BMS battery carries it. Bet they do. CS from BMS is not stellar, but it is not as bad as a typical china ebay guy.
Handlebar mount is fine for controllers. I just personally dislike the option seen often, under the bottom tube. Don't smother a controller in a bag. If you need serious waterproofing, a box with water excluding vents is the way. The controller needs wind to cool it.
Typical non euro speed limited 350w planetary gearmotors do about 20 mph at 36v. Enough to give her a good boost to keep up with you, unless you are a racer. If you are, you need to buy her 1000w. The wattages don't translate 1-1. To make your 250 w at the crank, you make about 800w of heat. Her motor will lose about 20-40% to heat, so to put 300w to the wheel she'll need 400w leaving the battery. A 1000w direct drive motor run on 48v would have her pulling you at 27 mph. So buy her more power if you are a racer.
Not sure who is the vendor for the bottle battery in Europe, but you might look and see if BMS battery carries it. Bet they do. CS from BMS is not stellar, but it is not as bad as a typical china ebay guy.
Handlebar mount is fine for controllers. I just personally dislike the option seen often, under the bottom tube. Don't smother a controller in a bag. If you need serious waterproofing, a box with water excluding vents is the way. The controller needs wind to cool it.
Typical non euro speed limited 350w planetary gearmotors do about 20 mph at 36v. Enough to give her a good boost to keep up with you, unless you are a racer. If you are, you need to buy her 1000w. The wattages don't translate 1-1. To make your 250 w at the crank, you make about 800w of heat. Her motor will lose about 20-40% to heat, so to put 300w to the wheel she'll need 400w leaving the battery. A 1000w direct drive motor run on 48v would have her pulling you at 27 mph. So buy her more power if you are a racer.
I just contacted them for a quote.
How's their motor in terms of noise level. I hear the tongxin are the most quiet.
I'm not that fast on the bike. On the flat about 30kph with on my 700C trekking bike with the NuVinci N360 in the back and a 3x XT crank in the front, produces a very nice gear range and the ability always hit the sweet spot is very nice.
20mph will be more than enough or she'll get scared on the bike. As money is a little tight, I just bought her some Shimano XT V-brakes for the bike to make it a little safer (they're actually quite good).
Technically in Germany, you're only allowed to have motor support up to 25kph, but as long as you don't overtake the a police car doing 60kph, they'll leave you alone. With 5000 students in our town they're happy to see someone who's sober and actually has some sort of lighting installed.
I'll slap on 2 stickers that say "25km/h" and "250W" and she'll be good to go.
The 35kph she'll do as a maximum will not produce any issues.
Oh by the way, she's not supposed to ride the bike like a motorcycle while I kill myself on my bike. It is just meant for her to get around a little quicker and as an incentive to leave the car in the garage and take the bike instead.
Our little 6 year old, love the bike I got him 2 weeks ago. He wants me to take him to school with it every day and he gets very sad, if the weather is not good enough for us to go shopping or take a little trip in the evening. I'm really glad how it worked out. Also, convincing mommy the first time to actually get on the bike and take a 10 mile round trip to an ice cream parlor was more difficult than talking a puritan into a threesome. (not that I've ever tried)
How's their motor in terms of noise level. I hear the tongxin are the most quiet.
I'm not that fast on the bike. On the flat about 30kph with on my 700C trekking bike with the NuVinci N360 in the back and a 3x XT crank in the front, produces a very nice gear range and the ability always hit the sweet spot is very nice.
20mph will be more than enough or she'll get scared on the bike. As money is a little tight, I just bought her some Shimano XT V-brakes for the bike to make it a little safer (they're actually quite good).
Technically in Germany, you're only allowed to have motor support up to 25kph, but as long as you don't overtake the a police car doing 60kph, they'll leave you alone. With 5000 students in our town they're happy to see someone who's sober and actually has some sort of lighting installed.
I'll slap on 2 stickers that say "25km/h" and "250W" and she'll be good to go.
The 35kph she'll do as a maximum will not produce any issues.
Oh by the way, she's not supposed to ride the bike like a motorcycle while I kill myself on my bike. It is just meant for her to get around a little quicker and as an incentive to leave the car in the garage and take the bike instead.
Our little 6 year old, love the bike I got him 2 weeks ago. He wants me to take him to school with it every day and he gets very sad, if the weather is not good enough for us to go shopping or take a little trip in the evening. I'm really glad how it worked out. Also, convincing mommy the first time to actually get on the bike and take a 10 mile round trip to an ice cream parlor was more difficult than talking a puritan into a threesome. (not that I've ever tried)
On a different note, I'll be looking into a really light and silent 350-500W motor for her.
I've been reading up on the subject for months to convert my 700C, but my setup would be a completely different one, with much higher power and the battery installed inside the large triangle.
She has a woman's frame with only a small triangle, so the large triangle shaped battery is out, also making the battery easily removable requires a snap in solution, which I wouldn't know how to custom build.
I've been reading up on the subject for months to convert my 700C, but my setup would be a completely different one, with much higher power and the battery installed inside the large triangle.
She has a woman's frame with only a small triangle, so the large triangle shaped battery is out, also making the battery easily removable requires a snap in solution, which I wouldn't know how to custom build.
999zip999
100 TW
Get a rear rack battery. Slides in and out. Has more room for a battery as the bottle is a bit small for head room. 36v 12ah would be a good match.
dogman dan
1 PW
Square package batteries carry quite well on top of the top tube of step through frames that have a straight bar. Again, a flat platform of some kind is the base of the thing. But in a small 36v 10 ah battery, rear rack carry should be fine as well. Another small battery suitable for the lower powered kits is callled the frog. comes in a neat little seat post mounted pod.
Any of the small gearmotors will be fine, they make a small bit of noise but not a lot. Quieter than a cordless drill generally.
The quietest motor ever was a crystalyte 408, if you should happen across a used one. There is a new clyte motor coming out that should be just as quiet, designed for cassetes instead of screw on freewheels, it should be a powerful, yet discreet motor for your build.
Any of the small gearmotors will be fine, they make a small bit of noise but not a lot. Quieter than a cordless drill generally.
The quietest motor ever was a crystalyte 408, if you should happen across a used one. There is a new clyte motor coming out that should be just as quiet, designed for cassetes instead of screw on freewheels, it should be a powerful, yet discreet motor for your build.
The problem with the rear rack is that we all use Racktime Addit rear racks.
The baskets we carry are made for those. If she can't use the family's shopping baskets, the bike will be close to worhtless for her.
I really love the addit and the snapit addon. The rack is very light and snapping in the basket and having it completely secure is a nice feature.
Racktime does make a special version but they don't sell it retail, it only comes with new ebikes. It might be possible to buy one from a dealer who can order it as replacement.
How would I go about mounting a battery to the top tube yet keeping it removable?
Maybe it can be mounted hanging from top tube. The top tube of her Scott bike is straight, by the way.
The baskets we carry are made for those. If she can't use the family's shopping baskets, the bike will be close to worhtless for her.
I really love the addit and the snapit addon. The rack is very light and snapping in the basket and having it completely secure is a nice feature.
Racktime does make a special version but they don't sell it retail, it only comes with new ebikes. It might be possible to buy one from a dealer who can order it as replacement.
How would I go about mounting a battery to the top tube yet keeping it removable?
Maybe it can be mounted hanging from top tube. The top tube of her Scott bike is straight, by the way.
dogman dan
1 PW
Well, the one I saw personally carried on the top tube, he had a rear rack adapted. So the rear rack was more or less permanently attached to the top tube of the step through bike.
Then he carried a pingbattery in a small tool box. He kept the box on the rack with multiple bungees. I like to just mount the box on the rack, and then remove the battery from the box when I need to. So in my mounts a small metal tool box stays mounted on the bike.
Her'es an example from my bike stable. A wood shelf supports the toolbox, which is laying on it's side. A 48v 15 ah pingbattery fits inside, and a strap keeps the toolbox lid from failing.
Something similar can be done on top of the top tube of your wifes bike. Attatch a flat metal platform of some kind, then hold the battery or box on the bike with strudy straps, or bolt the box to the flat platform.
Then he carried a pingbattery in a small tool box. He kept the box on the rack with multiple bungees. I like to just mount the box on the rack, and then remove the battery from the box when I need to. So in my mounts a small metal tool box stays mounted on the bike.
Her'es an example from my bike stable. A wood shelf supports the toolbox, which is laying on it's side. A 48v 15 ah pingbattery fits inside, and a strap keeps the toolbox lid from failing.
Something similar can be done on top of the top tube of your wifes bike. Attatch a flat metal platform of some kind, then hold the battery or box on the bike with strudy straps, or bolt the box to the flat platform.
BMS sells this case:
http://www.bmsbattery.com/aluminium-alloy/234-bottlle-battery-case-for-cylindrical-cell.html
Can anyone tell me, what a pack incl. BMS I could build inside one of these bottles?
How many cells of what type would I get in there?
36V, 20A discharge and 8-12Ah capacity are, what I'm looking to build.
Is that doable? What size cells could be used?
http://www.bmsbattery.com/aluminium-alloy/234-bottlle-battery-case-for-cylindrical-cell.html
Can anyone tell me, what a pack incl. BMS I could build inside one of these bottles?
How many cells of what type would I get in there?
36V, 20A discharge and 8-12Ah capacity are, what I'm looking to build.
Is that doable? What size cells could be used?
greenspark
100 W
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2011
- Messages
- 176
cell_man said:I've got some long thin cases on order 110 * 75 mm cross section (outer dimensions), these are a much better shape for a pack made from 26650 cells. For a case that will probably be a bit shorter if anything than a bottle pack of 12S 3P, you can fit a 12S 4P (39V 9.2Ah) pack along with a 30A continuous BMS. I've been to the factory where they make most of these cases and will start offering aluminium case packs soon, with some nice little touches that you haven't seen elsewhere, along with discharge rates you definitely don't see anywhere else
Paul (cell man), any updates on your bottle batteries?
Hello, this is my first message in this forum. My english is not very good. Sorry.
I have a bottle battery 36v/8.8Ah. The battery has 2 holders with 14 cells and 1 holder with 12 cells, a total of 40 cells in 10s4p configuration. I want to buy the 2 batteries that are missing in the third holder to have 42 cells and to have a configuration 14s3p. Possible? Is it possible to modify the bms for 48v? or what should I do?
I know that bottle battery is sold in differents configurations of 24, 36 and 48v and perhaps the BMS is the same with minor changes.
I have another question too, How is it possible the 48 and 24v configurations with LIPO cells if they are not multiples of 3.6
Thanks
The BMS
I have a bottle battery 36v/8.8Ah. The battery has 2 holders with 14 cells and 1 holder with 12 cells, a total of 40 cells in 10s4p configuration. I want to buy the 2 batteries that are missing in the third holder to have 42 cells and to have a configuration 14s3p. Possible? Is it possible to modify the bms for 48v? or what should I do?
I know that bottle battery is sold in differents configurations of 24, 36 and 48v and perhaps the BMS is the same with minor changes.
I have another question too, How is it possible the 48 and 24v configurations with LIPO cells if they are not multiples of 3.6
Thanks
The BMS
mihai_atanasiu
100 mW
very interesting pictures; are the green cells A123 26650 cells ?
Can you measure one cell ? if it has 26 mm diameter it is A123 26650.
Sorry, it is a Lithium ion 10 S. Maybe 18650 round cells.
Can you measure one cell ? if it has 26 mm diameter it is A123 26650.
Sorry, it is a Lithium ion 10 S. Maybe 18650 round cells.
mihai_atanasiu
100 mW
You have 40 cells total; because there is 10S you have ten strings of four cells in parallel.
For 14S you need another 16 cells to make four strings; But, first thing: the bottle is too small; second, you need another BMS for 14S; third you need another charger.
It's not so easy to upgrade an existing pack;
For 14S you need another 16 cells to make four strings; But, first thing: the bottle is too small; second, you need another BMS for 14S; third you need another charger.
It's not so easy to upgrade an existing pack;
skeetab5780
1 MW
well you can always ditch the bottle and add on the pack with more cells of your choice.. if you get the same 26650 cells you can just bulk charge with a power supply and not have to worry about the bms, just make sure you balance your pack on weekends or check up on them.
also make sure your controller can handle the voltage before you plug in and smoke your capacitors
also make sure your controller can handle the voltage before you plug in and smoke your capacitors
999zip999
100 TW
Use the bottle battery as is. And down the road get the battery you need. 48v12ah maybe a rack battery. The bottle batteries can work with a 250 watt maybe a 500watt motor. It has it limits
dnmun
1 PW
yep, there is nothing you can do but eat the lesson you learned. if you buy a little bitty battery you cannot make it into a linebacker.
in order to use that as a 14S battery you would need to find a14S BMS or hack the new BMS down to 14S from 16S which you can obtain commercially.
the cells would have to be identical, essentially from the same lot or manufacturer with the same encapsulation and tabs. the internal resistance can be so different in those different manufactured lifepo4 cans that the pack would never balance with those 100 ohm shunt resistors even if the processor ran the shunt transistors full on all the time, but they always have big hysteresis between HVC and the cut on voltage added to the change in the internal resistance as it ages makes it very difficult if not impossible to keep the pack balanced. just wait and buy a bigger battery that will supply enuff power from the beginning.
in order to use that as a 14S battery you would need to find a14S BMS or hack the new BMS down to 14S from 16S which you can obtain commercially.
the cells would have to be identical, essentially from the same lot or manufacturer with the same encapsulation and tabs. the internal resistance can be so different in those different manufactured lifepo4 cans that the pack would never balance with those 100 ohm shunt resistors even if the processor ran the shunt transistors full on all the time, but they always have big hysteresis between HVC and the cut on voltage added to the change in the internal resistance as it ages makes it very difficult if not impossible to keep the pack balanced. just wait and buy a bigger battery that will supply enuff power from the beginning.
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