What will it take to make ebikes, More mainstream ?

[rumme]

I wouldn't be surprised if the DIY market is saturated based on what I've seen; the e-commuters may increase incrementally, but it won't be because some new bike attracts them, rather conditions dictate a change. The bike shop owners that I know have the most optimism from the hope that e-MTBers (maybe roadies too) will adopt this platform as they "age out" and want to do the same rides as before. This will be a small, but profitable change.

I can only speak from my experience on local bike shops , but they are severely over priced . Mine wanted $ 135 to spoke a rim that was a simple radial { no cross} configuration with me providing the spokes. This is when I decided to learn how to spoke rims myself and stay away from the bike shops.

I believe for the person with some mechanical skills and the desire to do some youtube/ internet research, the best priced option when buying a completely finished, sleek ebike , will be from a online seller that can manufacture thousands of them, with decent quality at a lower price .

 

[WoodlandHills]

In America most bike stores sell mostly toys to people who use them for recreation, ebikes will be the same. What percentage of bike shop sales are MTBs, electric or otherwise? They are all sold as toys, as playthings to be used during leisure time and it seems like the OEMs are putting a lot of money and effort into their development as opposed to street/commuter ebikes. It's almost as if they knew in advance what would sell........

 

[Chalo]

I can only speak from my experience on local bike shops , but they are severely over priced . Mine wanted $ 135 to spoke a rim that was a simple radial { no cross} configuration with me providing the spokes. This is when I decided to learn how to spoke rims myself and stay away from the bike shops.

At my shop, we build wheels for $50, recently up from $40. For a few wheels, that represents a tidy profit. For others, particularly 48 spoke pedicab wheels and hub motor wheels, it's not a good hourly shop rate at all. But it's what we charge.

Hub motor wheels are a huge time-consuming nuisance to work on. They're heavy, they resist rotation so that it's difficult to keep the axle stationary for truing, and it can be a fight to get the spokes installed. They all seem to have stupidly huge holes such that spoke head washers are necessary. It's many times easier to hurt yourself or deface a new rim when working on a hub motor wheel, than it is with a normal bicycle wheel.

This is somewhat representative of what it's like to work on e-bikes generally, which is why many shops don't want to do it. We're used to having a customary flat rate for usual jobs, and e-bikes don't make sense in that scheme-- because they take more time and more steps, for a slew of different reasons.

We could simply say, as many shops do, that it will be $60/hour and it takes as long as it takes. But that's not how we operate, and it's contrary to most people's expectations of getting a firm quote in advance. So we guess, and more often than not it's a gross underbid on our part, which makes us no profit or even costs us money sometimes. Do that enough times, and you wouldn't be glad to see a busted e-bike come in the door either.

I think it will simply be a matter of time and increasing familiarity before these issues get worked out. Hopefully, pressure from bike service professionals will have a wholesome effect on e-bike design and standards, because as it is, they're nowhere near as functional and developed as normal bicycles. Attempts within the industry to bring e-bikes up to par with normal bikes are partly accountable for why major brand e-bikes are so darned expensive, I think. That too will get worked out in time, as the most effective and economical technical solutions (not just the cheapest to manufacture) become standardized.

 

[amberwolf]

I believe there's a glimmer of hope that at least a few US cities might become more like Amsterdam, but it's unlikely and will take a lot of time and effort. You don't appear to believe that is possible at all, and I can see why from the rest of your post.

Possible? Sure--with some outside change that forces it to happen. After that, over a few decades or more it might even become accepted.

Don't get me wrong, the build I'm planning is a folder, but I had to do quite a bit of research about which folder to convert. Grabbing any old Dahon and expecting it to convert well could quickly turn into a nightmare.

That can be true even with regular bikes, depending on the type of conversion.

However, conversion of an existing folder isn't really the issue as far as making ebikes more mainstream, though, because if a folding ebike turns out to be one of the solutions to getting more people to use them in more situations, it'll have to be purpose-built e-folders; relatively very few people are willing to do any kind of conversion, regardless of ease.

Outside of DIYers that want something that doesn't exist yet, generally only those that are unwilling/unable to spend the money on a pre-built bike will go for the conversion option. Most people are unwilling to even learn how to change their own tires/tubes/brakepads/etc if they have the option of someone else doing it for them.

This is in Phoenix, right? I haven't been there myself, but a friend was living there last year and he said that the city is 100 x 100 miles in size. Combined with the summer heat, I would probably get a car if I were living there, too. I do think certain US cities are good candidates for widespread bike commuting, but places like Phoenix will probably never be among them.

The valley area is quite sprawled out, but because in most areas everything you need is within a mile or few of your home, a bike is a very viable option, even a pedal bike, for most. Just not one they'd be willing to try.

I haven't checked, but I'd guess that at least a third, maybe half of people here work within that distance of their homes as well. There's plenty of cross-valley commuters who don't have that option for their job, though they often do have other transport options they generally are not willing to explore, either.

The "strip mall" phenomenon makes getting to whatever you need easy, as food, groceries, other goods, services, are usually in the closest one to your home, and if not they're probably in the next one.

There's exceptions; for instance I'd like to get a new tube for my right rear wheel and pick up a spare, but the closest place that carries such things for moped/motorcycle tires in the right size of a usable type that will sell to me (because I ride bicycles and not motorcycles or cars) is at least a dozen miles away. I'm waiting for the worst of the heat to pass before I go do that (it's already 116f and not even noon, today).

There's a great store that sells assorted grocery merchandise for very cheap; close-to-expiring lots, dented cans, restaurant-sized goods, etc., but it's across the valley, maybe 40-50 miles or so round trip? It's been a few years since I've gone there, so I don't remember exactly. I've made the trip a few ways, including by car with friends, and the only way that makes economic sense is by extreme cargo bike/trike with large trailer and filling it up till it will barely move.

But the reason I stopped going is that it's not a fun trip due to the route at that end of things: it's a canal path ride before that for much of it, and that's fun, or at least relaxing, but after that it's all busy city streets and detours around non-bike-passable areas. Just a regular bike would be usable in those areas, but wouldn't let me carry enough to be worth the trip, and the same is true of any trailer small enough to be usable in those areas. So I have to go around them, and that takes a lot of time (and battery range), adding a lot of hassle to the trip. It's too dangerous to ride straight there; the traffic is too fast and there's no protected provisions for even a regular bike much less something as huge as my bike-or-trike/trailer combo. Even though by being that large I *am* safer than a regular bike would be by dint of being more visible, it's still not enough, right there.

There's a number of places around the valley like that, not worth doing by bike for whatever reason, that a car might be. The grocery thing isn't, because it would cost enough in gas to negate savings enough that it'd be just about as good to simply hit all the good sales locally...which is what I do instead.

 

[markz]

stupidly huge holes such that spoke head washers are necessary.

Yup so true, I hate that about the hub motors.
Scratching the rim too.

I am lucky that I found some 3mm washers from a fastener supply house locally. But I still need 2mm washers.
Them spoke washers are too flimsy, atleast the ones I bought from my LBS. Which reminds me I should buy some more from them and use them along with my 3mm washers should do the trick. For some reason I was going to make my own out of some roof flashing, but I wont now. Open till 8 so I gotta run. Chow!

 

[arthurtuxedo]

This is in Phoenix, right? I haven't been there myself, but a friend was living there last year and he said that the city is 100 x 100 miles in size. Combined with the summer heat, I would probably get a car if I were living there, too. I do think certain US cities are good candidates for widespread bike commuting, but places like Phoenix will probably never be among them.

The valley area is quite sprawled out, but because in most areas everything you need is within a mile or few of your home, a bike is a very viable option, even a pedal bike, for most. Just not one they'd be willing to try.

I haven't checked, but I'd guess that at least a third, maybe half of people here work within that distance of their homes as well. There's plenty of cross-valley commuters who don't have that option for their job, though they often do have other transport options they generally are not willing to explore, either.

The "strip mall" phenomenon makes getting to whatever you need easy, as food, groceries, other goods, services, are usually in the closest one to your home, and if not they're probably in the next one.

There's exceptions; for instance I'd like to get a new tube for my right rear wheel and pick up a spare, but the closest place that carries such things for moped/motorcycle tires in the right size of a usable type that will sell to me (because I ride bicycles and not motorcycles or cars) is at least a dozen miles away. I'm waiting for the worst of the heat to pass before I go do that (it's already 116f and not even noon, today).

There's a great store that sells assorted grocery merchandise for very cheap; close-to-expiring lots, dented cans, restaurant-sized goods, etc., but it's across the valley, maybe 40-50 miles or so round trip? It's been a few years since I've gone there, so I don't remember exactly. I've made the trip a few ways, including by car with friends, and the only way that makes economic sense is by extreme cargo bike/trike with large trailer and filling it up till it will barely move.

But the reason I stopped going is that it's not a fun trip due to the route at that end of things: it's a canal path ride before that for much of it, and that's fun, or at least relaxing, but after that it's all busy city streets and detours around non-bike-passable areas. Just a regular bike would be usable in those areas, but wouldn't let me carry enough to be worth the trip, and the same is true of any trailer small enough to be usable in those areas. So I have to go around them, and that takes a lot of time (and battery range), adding a lot of hassle to the trip. It's too dangerous to ride straight there; the traffic is too fast and there's no protected provisions for even a regular bike much less something as huge as my bike-or-trike/trailer combo. Even though by being that large I *am* safer than a regular bike would be by dint of being more visible, it's still not enough, right there.

There's a number of places around the valley like that, not worth doing by bike for whatever reason, that a car might be. The grocery thing isn't, because it would cost enough in gas to negate savings enough that it'd be just about as good to simply hit all the good sales locally...which is what I do instead.

Do you have Instacart in Phoenix? That wouldn't solve the parts issue, but cheap groceries would become a breeze. I pay $15 / month and get free delivery once per week from Smart and Final, which has great prices but it would be very impractical to shop there in-person without a car.

Also, what about Zipcar? Here in SF when you do actually need a car you can rent a Zipcar that's never more than a 5 minute walk away. These services make it a lot easier to go car-free, so I'm curious to know whether they're widespread in other parts of the country.

 

[amberwolf]

Do you have Instacart in Phoenix? That wouldn't solve the parts issue, but cheap groceries would become a breeze. I pay $15 / month and get free delivery once per week from Smart and Final, which has great prices but it would be very impractical to shop there in-person without a car.

That last statement isn't actually true--you're just not thinking outside the 4-wheeled box.

You should look at the links in my signature, for the trailers, the SB Cruiser trike, and the CrazyBike2 bike threads. Those are some examples of "extreme" cargo bikes/trikes...but only in comparison with a common bicycle.

Those are custom-built solutions to my problems, but there are commercially-available cargo bikes and trikes that could carry what they do, or even more.

With SB Cruiser and the Mk IV trailer, I could easily carry as much cargo as a typical car, stacked in coolers (which I save from work as I need them; we toss them out every week from fish/etc shipments) strapped down to it.

I can fit an entire mounded-up-over-full large shopping cart full of stuff just on the trike itself, in it's cargo deck area. Then I have the rack over the top of that, plus the space in the seatbox area.

Even with just the old DayGlo Avenger (a "normal" e-bike) I hauled a trailer big enough to carry a full grocery cart of stuff, or a couple hundred pounds of dog food, or a hundred pounds of wiggly dog, etc. It just wasnt' as much *fun* as the trike is.



$15/month will buy groceries I need (up to several days' worth or more if I get good enough sales), can't afford to waste that on delivery when I can just go get the stuff.

Also, when you aren't there to pick out your groceries, you get whatever they pick out--which can include damaged or contaminated goods, that you'd be able to eliminate if you were there to pick them out--you also miss out on the chance to compare price-per-unit on different brands/types of stuff, and get the best deal. For me, that's a lot more important than the convenience of not hauling my stuff around.

Smart and Final is often pretty expensive compared to waiting for really good sales or clearance on specific items I need at regular grocery stores (Fry's, Safeway, "dollar" stores, etc). I usually buy as much as I can afford of whatever is on a deep sale or deep clearance, so I almost never have to pay normal retail prices for stuff, rotating thru different things I need to buy as I find them on sale. Sometimes there isnt' a sale on something I need right then, but the savings on all the other stuff helps me afford those times.

Being frugal like this helps me afford to live in the house I do, and water the trees/plants I grow to shade it all and make it feel like home, and feed myself and the two St Bernards. :lol:

Also, what about Zipcar? Here in SF when you do actually need a car you can rent a Zipcar that's never more than a 5 minute walk away. These services make it a lot easier to go car-free, so I'm curious to know whether they're widespread in other parts of the country.

I don't know--I've never even bothered getting a driver's license, as I have no need for one; hadn't gotten far enough on my car before my mom needed it to do it, would've caused her insurance to go up unnafordably with me living there if I had one, etc., didn't even want one after I got past a certain point.

Most of the time if I need to carry something bigger than my usual stuff can do, I can just build a trailer around the requirements to haul it. If that's impractical, I have a couple friends with trucks. The need doesn't happen very often.

 

[GIGATT]

Wow I just learned a lot... about sondors. I wonder if the sondors X is any better. Shalom

 

[markz]

I dont see many people doing the e-bike thang. Everyone loves their motorcycles and trucks.
Bionx is in the local bicycle shops but they are multi-thousand dollars and legal slow speed.
The guy on the Bionx went faster then me, but that was pedal assist. Plus I baby my weak piece of shit.

 

[JoeAverage]

I'd like to have useful bike paths. In order to justify the bike paths here it takes alot of bikes who want to use a path. If ebikes are a growing thing then I expect the gov't to get involved after some clown hurts himself or someone else with a 10HP bicycle rocket used in traffic or on a sidewalk where he should not have been while going that fast. The gov;t will shut us down and wreck the utility that our bicycles gain with some sort of motor or engine. Or they'll wreck the low cost of it all by imposing moped insurance and registration on us.

It seems like every gov't decision seems to encourage us to stay in our cars and burn lots of gasoline.

Chicken vs the egg, chicken vs the egg... Bikes vs bike friendly roads...

I think I'll just be happy with the status quo. Me on a 1000W+ 48V middrive doing 20 mph. That other guy I see on a two cycle gasser doing 20 mph. And everyone else gawking at us making assumptions that we both lost our licenses.

Seriously I don't see anything changing in the USA b/c we're spoiled with cheap gas. Once gasoline goes over $5 a gallon, I expect to see cities and towns begin to reinvent themselves as more dense urban areas where people want to spend that gas money on a treat or drinks while their car just stays parked.

That's what we were doing at my house back in '08. We'd stock up on groceries and a good weekend was one where we never left the house. I have a few very car-centric friends and coworkers who were just appalled that anyone would live like that as if we were punishing ourselves. Do people not tinker and have hobbies anymore - - or do they just shop continuously?

They preferred to continue to drive and spend and then use the work week to complain about how expensive everything had gotten. Eventually thirsty SUVs were sold in favor of more frugal cars - and then gasoline got cheap again ($1.88 here this week) and people have been buying thirsty vehicles for 8 years now.

If gas shoots up unexpectedly again we can all listen to them complain all over to anyone who will listen.

Our smallish town is getting more crowded and growing. I don't expect bicycling to get any easier here for a while.

 

[heavymetalthunder]

Getting government to raise the speed limit would be one and allowing at least 1000 watt motors. The technology is there.

 

[markz]

Who gets stopped on their ebike? Who?

Who enforces the watt max rule?
Do you think a street cop knows anything about watts?
A street cop see's you doing wheelies, blazing past dog walkers and families at break neck speeds he will be inclined to stop you, thats if he can catch you on your ebike.

 

[SniperGaulois]

Ebike sales are increasing very much in some regions.

It looks like america has got a sales issue, they have 10% ebike sales compared to Europe. Allegedly it's because Americans think that cycling is for sport not for transportation. perhaps the car industry has boycotted against cycle tracks in cities with more results than in the EU. It's because of culture and perception, perhaps there should be more electric motorbikes, electric bike rallies, electric bike X sports and stunts.

Cars and motorbikes get too much advertisement. cars racing F-15's, cars racing trains, cars racing horses. Perhaps we film some pop videos of races in between e-bikes and fighter planes and horses to show that an ebike is faster than a fighter jet and it's faster than a horse, in 4k, with a good cinematography.

Also there should be a lobby of ebike enthusiasts, national association of ebike riders, with stated aims for legal advancement of ebikes, making the laws better and everything. Same as the NRA, only with ebikes.

 

[Ianhill]

What the ebike world needs is manufactured ebike racing say 11000watts and offer them to buy in a toned down road legal form then have a specific licence for 2 wheel e.v for 11kw and under.
Driving tests and road rules as we know them have to change when ev become more adopted bike's in uk are set by max cc and power figures but for electric bike's that's set at 11kw or 14.6hp for the 125cc class so I say make a ev racing class at this level and make the bikes differ with advanced powertrains selection but have weight limits etc.
I would stage the events like a rally race so theres long sections with differing technical terrain to really pull out systems that stand head and shoulders above the rest and really drive performance increases across the board.

 

[markz]

Its because in America the distances out in the burbs scare them from ebiking, and its not the American way. The American way is to drive their Hummer 100' (armed with a pistol for self protection), eating their Twinkies to the corner store to get more junk/fast food that makes them fat and fill up their gas gussling truck.

I find ebiking a lot fun, it allows me to break a sweat, be out in nature, breath some fresh air, and get from point A to point B whether that be 100% ebike, or a combo of bus/train transit and ebiking. I like a change of scenery so I cant always stick around my neck of the woods. The other big bonus is the cost of ownership is dirt cheap, compared to gas, insurance, repair and the cost of the vehicle itself.

 

[rumme]

I see things another way.

I think a big reason why ebikes are not as popular in the U.S., is because our society is largely out of shape/ overweight and downright spoiled. Most people would rather
drive to the store or post office { which may only be less then 10 miles away} in the extreme comfort of their air conditioned/ heated cars/trucks.

 

[amberwolf]

As far as that goes, people drive from one store to the next in a strip mall, taking more time finding a new parking spot a few dozen feet from the old one than doing the actual shopping in the store.

(certainly more time than just walking from the first store to the next).

Granted that it's pretty hot around here much of the year, but they'll do it even on perfect weather days...and often enough it's actually farther to their car than to the next store, especially counting the distance both to the car and then from the new spot to the next store.

If they were carrying a lot of purchased items around I suppose I could see not wanting to do that...but it doesn't make much sense when they arent' carrying anything at all.

 

[arthurtuxedo]

I see things another way.

I think a big reason why ebikes are not as popular in the U.S., is because our society is largely out of shape/ overweight and downright spoiled. Most people would rather
drive to the store or post office { which may only be less then 10 miles away} in the extreme comfort of their air conditioned/ heated cars/trucks.

Maybe the big advertising push for ebikes should be the throttle. I suspect another big reason people are reluctant is that it's been so long since most adults have been on a bike that they're scared to fall off and look stupid. The average person might be more receptive to a trike with a large cargo basket and a powerful motor than any flavor of ebike.

 

[Ykick]

As far as that goes, people drive from one store to the next in a strip mall, taking more time finding a new parking spot a few dozen feet from the old one than doing the actual shopping in the store.

(certainly more time than just walking from the first store to the next).

Granted that it's pretty hot around here much of the year, but they'll do it even on perfect weather days...and often enough it's actually farther to their car than to the next store, especially counting the distance both to the car and then from the new spot to the next store.

If they were carrying a lot of purchased items around I suppose I could see not wanting to do that...but it doesn't make much sense when they arent' carrying anything at all.

Near my home:

The irony to me....

 

[Ianhill]

The ebike is in a perfect place to tackle obesity but some one with obesity is not in the perfect place to tackle the ebike the seat is the problem the more weight you have the larger the seat area needs to be not to apply to much preasure to the ahole amd balance goes out the window the best thing a large weak person can do is small amounts of incline walking and build their fitness and core strength from there a bike being powered won't help achieve anything a motorbike won't if they won't peddle.
The hole reason I'm building my current ebike is to extend my personal range I'm but a downside will be that incline climbing is going to be assisted not as personally challenging as a self powered rides.

 

[rumme]

I doubt that electric trikes would be more popular/ mainstream then 2 wheeled electric bikes, here in America. Maybe if gas ever goes to $6 per gallon, electric bikes will become more popular.

 

[Chalo]

I suspect another big reason people are reluctant is that it's been so long since most adults have been on a bike that they're scared to fall off and look stupid. The average person might be more receptive to a trike with a large cargo basket and a powerful motor than any flavor of ebike.

They'll only be receptive to a trike until they actually ride one. It's way easier to get upside down on a trike than on a bike. And the ride is much less comfortable once you exceed walking speeds, because the seat kicks sideways.

Promoting trikes to n00bs is a surefire way to make them permanently resistant to the idea of getting around by bike.

 

[E-geezer]

The same reason people won't ride bikes also applies to ebikes and in the US, the reasons not to for most people far, far outweigh the reasons to.

Why would you ride an ebike?
Its fun
It's cheaper than driving
It's quicker than drving
Ownership is cheaper than a car
It's better for the planet

Why wouldn't you?
The weather isn't nice enough
It's too far
I can't carry all my stuff, dogs and kids
I don't have a safe route
It's work
It takes longer than driving

Until owning and using a car becomes much more painful, either by much higher gas prices and more frustrating traffic jams, riding an ebike, even one you wouldn't have to pedal and you could buy cheaply, simply isn't attractive to most people. Cars are easy and convienient. If you want to be eco conscious, get an electric car. Having commuted and run errands on my bike for decades, you have to have a certain level of commitment to do it, it can be uncomfortable and inconvienient, and most people won't put up with it.

 

[rumme]

The same reason people won't ride bikes also applies to ebikes and in the US, the reasons not to for most people far, far outweigh the reasons to.

Why would you ride an ebike?
Its fun
It's cheaper than driving
It's quicker than drving
Ownership is cheaper than a car
It's better for the planet

Why wouldn't you?
The weather isn't nice enough
It's too far
I can't carry all my stuff, dogs and kids
I don't have a safe route
It's work
It takes longer than driving

Until owning and using a car becomes much more painful, either by much higher gas prices and more frustrating traffic jams, riding an ebike, even one you wouldn't have to pedal and you could buy cheaply, simply isn't attractive to most people. Cars are easy and convienient. If you want to be eco conscious, get an electric car. Having commuted and run errands on my bike for decades, you have to have a certain level of commitment to do it, it can be uncomfortable and inconvienient, and most people won't put up with it.

For me, the biggest inconvenience of ebike commuting has been the flat tire scenarios.

 

[skyungjae]

I see things another way.

I think a big reason why ebikes are not as popular in the U.S., is because our society is largely out of shape/ overweight and downright spoiled. Most people would rather
drive to the store or post office { which may only be less then 10 miles away} in the extreme comfort of their air conditioned/ heated cars/trucks.

You also have to consider the cultural view on bicycles in the U.S. It's primarily viewed in this order: fitness > commuting > children's toy (mountain bikes) :lol:

"Doesn't it defeat the purpose?" or "It's cheating!" is a lot of what I hear from the non-commuting crowd.

The way I see it, specifically for the US, in order for e-bikes to become more mainstream, bicycles in general need to become more mainstream.