Will this combination work?

[wesnewell]

I used ID as inside demension. Probably should have said inside rim width to be clearer. From 21mm to 25mm is a pretty good jump, but if you have to buy new rims I'd go for 32mm inside width minimum. I bought 2 of these and stripped one rim out for the hub motor.
http://www.amazon.com/Weinmann-DH-39-Alloy-Nutted-Black/dp/B000C15EBW/ref=sr_1_19

 

[friendly1uk]

Amazon Sucks. I'm changing my feelings towards them to 'hate'

We're sorry. This item can't be shipped to your selected destination. You may either change the shipping address or delete the item from your order.

It's not even an explanation. They should just say because it's in the UK. Wasting my bloody time. Must be my 4th experience with them now, and each time I only get a head ache.

24mm rims it is then... There are no bigger ones in the uk. Now if only I knew there size. I might be better to just toss the tyre's out.

 

[wesnewell]

There are probably some bigger rims in the UK, but it's going to be like finding a needle in a haystack to find them. I couldn't find bare rims here in the US to meet my needs. That's why I bought the whole wheels. All you could possibly do is start calling bike shops if you can't find them online. Wider rims are only popular for ebikes and most of them don't come with wide rims either. Really too bad cause they make a huge difference with bigger tires. My original 25mm inside width rim is sitting in the corner gathering dust with the small wheels I've pulled off several bikes.

 

[Chalo]

for tire widths of 2.5" or less, rims wider than 32mm outside width just aren't necessary at normal pressures. It's nice to get a little more tread on the ground with a wider rim, but that also diminishes the suspension offered by the tire.

Super wide rims are used mainly by trials, snowbike, and fatbike riders, where the objective is to lower your tire pressure to a minimum without causing the tire to become laterally unstable. On my bike with 26 x 3.0" tires that I run as low as 16psi, I use 47mm wide rims. If you ride a Surly Moonlander with 4.7" tires and 100mm wide rims, 5psi is a reasonable pressure.

For very wide rims in the UK, try Unicycle.com or TartyBikes. But for my money, tires under 2.5" and pressures above 30psi, I'd use the Alex DM24 without reservations. It's hard to beat that rim's combination of low cost, high strength, good consistency, and eyelets.

 

[chas58]

Are you really worried about the rim width? Yeah wider is better for bigger tires, but mountain bikes all over the world have been using 2.125” tires on 19mm (ID) wheels and smaller. Its not a problem. Sure, if you are running ultra low 20psi you’ll get some tire squirm on a 19mm rim, but that isn’t your problem is it?

Sheldon has great info, but his word is not gospel, and he even says his numbers are very conservative. To to a tire maker, and you can see that you can put just about any tire on a 19mm rim. That is why the vast majority of rims are 19mm. You can put anything on them.

Here is what Schwalbe says about tires and rims (just about anything will work on a 19mm rim):
http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/tire_dimensions#rim
(hit the link “Which tire fits which rim?" to see the wheel/tire chart)


P.S. I decided to have my local bike shop build my second wheel. $40 in labor $25 Weinneman deep V, and some spokes and I don’t have the headaches you have. I hope at least!

 

[Chalo]

I decided to have my local bike shop build my second wheel. $40 in labor $25 Weinneman deep V [...]

That's a really narrow rim. So narrow, in fact, that you can get unpleasant symptoms related to crowding two thicknesses of tire sidewall, two thicknesses of tube, and a Presta valve inside the narrow rim channel. I have a few wheels with that rim (the Weinmann DP18, I assume) and a couple with the related but deeper Origin 8 Track Attack.

The chronic kind of flat folks get with the DP18 and similarly narrow rims happens when a relatively thick-walled city/utility tire (or cheap tire) is mounted on it. After mounting the tire, the sidewalls pinch up the valve of the tube so that it doesn't sit on the rim bed. Inflating the tube just binds everything up more tightly, and still the valve does not come down and sit on the rim bed-- but the tube bubbles out on either side of the valve, to fill the void underneath it. Sooner or later one of these bubbles pops, and you have a sudden puncture that can be difficult to patch due to its proximity to the valve.

When using a narrow rim like the Weinmann DP18, remember to pull the valve all the way down into the rim channel before inflating. If it won't come down, pop it out and moisten the area around the base of the valve with something (spit, if you're out in the dust somewhere) to make it slippery enough to pop down it there. A little shot of silicone bike polish or Armor All would do the job, and endure long enough to remain a little slippery at subsequent tire changes.

I would use up to a 40mm or so tire on a DP18 without qualms. Wider than that, I think I'd have to use more pressure than otherwise would be necessary, just to stabilize the tire and keep it from rolling sideways. I used tires up to a nominal 26 x 2.6" on the similarly narrow Matrix Iso-C rim back in the day, but I got spat off the bike a few times as a result.

 

[friendly1uk]

I bypassed amazon, and went straight to Niagara.

we do not offer international shipping at this time except to Canada. We cannot make exceptions to this

Ebay man with his 32mm rims is getting there

32mm is measurement across rim section externally.
Walls are 2mm each so approx 28mm internal

He is just guessing though. All that makes rims have 7 or 8 mm separating bead widths. He has now had the beach ball through a hoop analogy to try yet again for an internal measurement. He needs to get off his...

I want to run low pressures, It is why I got the big balloon tyres. They look ridiculous beside the 18mm rims though. On the 21mm one's there looking much better matched with just that few extra mm, but there old rims due for retirement. I can see the ebay ones should be good, if he gets his act together

I will go and have a look at the shops you linked me to Chalo. Thank you.

 

[wesnewell]

This one looks good if you can use 14G spokes.
http://www.unicycle.uk.com/unicycle-parts/rims/26-nimbus-dominator2-rim.html

 

[chas58]

Thanks for the helpful insight as usual.

That rim is the DP18. With a presta valve and gatorskin tires from 622 25mm to 32mm, I haven't had any problems. I agree though, care has to be taken with the valve stem to get it seated right.
the mountain bike rims (and this cheap thing from china that came with the wheel build) also have ID of about 19mm, but I haven't had any issues either running 26x2.125, other than additional tire squirm at low pressures like 20psi.

I decided to have my local bike shop build my second wheel. $40 in labor $25 Weinneman deep V [...]

That's a really narrow rim. So narrow, in fact, that you can get unpleasant symptoms related to crowding two thicknesses of tire sidewall, two thicknesses of tube, and a Presta valve inside the narrow rim channel. I have a few wheels with that rim (the Weinmann DP18, I assume) and a couple with the related but deeper Origin 8 Track Attack.

The chronic kind of flat folks get with the DP18 and similarly narrow rims happens when a relatively thick-walled city/utility tire (or cheap tire) is mounted on it. After mounting the tire, the sidewalls pinch up the valve of the tube so that it doesn't sit on the rim bed. Inflating the tube just binds everything up more tightly, and still the valve does not come down and sit on the rim bed-- but the tube bubbles out on either side of the valve, to fill the void underneath it. Sooner or later one of these bubbles pops, and you have a sudden puncture that can be difficult to patch due to its proximity to the valve.

When using a narrow rim like the Weinmann DP18, remember to pull the valve all the way down into the rim channel before inflating. If it won't come down, pop it out and moisten the area around the base of the valve with something (spit, if you're out in the dust somewhere) to make it slippery enough to pop down it there. A little shot of silicone bike polish or Armor All would do the job, and endure long enough to remain a little slippery at subsequent tire changes.

I would use up to a 40mm or so tire on a DP18 without qualms. Wider than that, I think I'd have to use more pressure than otherwise would be necessary, just to stabilize the tire and keep it from rolling sideways. I used tires up to a nominal 26 x 2.6" on the similarly narrow Matrix Iso-C rim back in the day, but I got spat off the bike a few times as a result.

 

[friendly1uk]

The unicycle site is the only one I have seen giving width as a search criteria. Well done to them, for having the only site I have enjoyed looking at, and didn't waste my time. Not just rim width, they also give ERD. They are streets ahead in website functionality. However, I think ERD is quite useless to me. Is it ID plus wall width? I could work with that. It would make sense. It might even mean it's right for my spoke length, although I'm not using 14G.

The alex dm24 was ideal, but discontinued. The only cheap source is again Niagara, who won't do sales internationally

I can't believe how much this job is falling apart. All these sites to look at, but next to non with decent search engines. My internet speed just won't allow me to search through it all, I have spent hour and hours looking, and sent out various letters, But it's starting to feel a bit futile. Although I'm getting stacks of help, and I thank you all for that.

I would at least try my tyres on the new new rims I have here, but I strongly suspect that building the wheel will wreck the spokes. I would at least need longer nipples. My spokes are 3.4mm shorter than ideal, making them tight at a single turn.

I'm going to jump at just about any option, Which is that 42mm dominator needing new spokes currently. Least I know the size. I wish ebay man would sort his act out. Perhaps d8veh will pass by with the info shortly. I at least know he used 210mm spokes, So that is what I'm likely to end up doing.

 

[wesnewell]

A 25mm inside rim width will support a 2.125" (54mm) tire quite well. Even used my 2.4" (61mm) width Cyclops on them but the overhang interfered with the rim brakes until I added some spacers to the pads. Panaracers 2.3" worked ok on them. But, once I went to the DH39 rim it was like night and day. A lot more stable. More even tire wear in middle. A wider footprint which reduces rolling resistance. Rim trued easier. Well worth the month or 2 it took me to find them.

 

[chas58]

Yep, a wider rim is nice for an e-bike where you want wide tires and don't care so much about weight. Cell-man uses 19mm and 24mm (DM24) alexis rims (http://em3ev.com/store/), I wouldn't think those Alexis rims would be too hard to source if 24mm is wide enough for you.

http://www.alexrims.com/product_detail.asp?sc=0&cat=25&pid=115
(says 32mm wide, I assume that is the outside though).

 

[wesnewell]

This one is 32mm inside and 39mm outside. I think all the DX?? rims use inside width for ??, but double check.
http://www.alexrims.com/product_detail.asp?sc=0&cat=22&pid=82

 

[friendly1uk]

Ebay man got back to me. Measured 28mm/530mm which is perfect, although a thin bead. Just hovering on the 'buy it now' button when it hit me. They are not for rim brakes. DOH!

Another 4 hours on this today so far. Time is money, and I have spent so much I could of bought some real nice ones, if there actually were any. It's certainly telling me something, but I want them nice strong dm24's that just don't exist in the UK anymore.

I have found an outlet in canada with a pair of wheels. There in Niagara's $35 ballpark and will ship. This might be the one..

My next option seems to be employing someone from the states to forward the niagara stuff for me.


Oh... just had an email. Like a breath of fresh air! 24mm for £20 delivered. Result! http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=13499
Just seeing if they can get the no longer listed dm24s or either in a ready made wheel.
I feel relieved

 

[wesnewell]

If that's 29.6mm inside width, you'll be very happy with them. If it's 29.6mm outside width, you'll be sadly disappointed as inside width will only be ~23mm.
Just found out they are 23mm. Don't waste your money.
http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/1-5-tire-29mm-rim-431886.html

 

[friendly1uk]

I'm really struggling wesnewall (is it just Wes?). They did tell me there 24mm internal and offer something bigger still, but it seems bigger must be a lot bigger, like unicycle wheels seem to be. The fact It's so hard to get these big wheels tells me there not commonly used. Not as common as people putting 2.3" tyres on 17mm wheels. Much as I would like to stick with our somewhat fringe views, I just can't. My total build budget was £500 with a £200 cushion so I can't really get rims at £50 a piece.

I really like the response I'm getting from chain reactions. He has linked me to all the products I might need, such as the rim the spokes and a suitable front hub, and a link that has them build the wheels for me for the grand cost of 1 penny. That is 1.5 cents US. Delivery is free. Putting 24mm wheels at £50 ($75) delivered. OK it's not niagara's dm24 prices, but a peak on amazon today showed there missing now. The dm24 is vanishing from all stockists so that price was probably clearance. Chain reactions did stock them too. I think the dm24's are history and 24mm really is as big as most large outlets carry. It should be enough. Even the 17mm mavic xm317 says 2.3" max. Laughable as that seems.

I will have to see what the canadian dm24's come in at, but really chain reactions have this one.

Finally I can sit back and think about fixing the bms board damaged in transit. The perfect fit of the HK 4s hardpacks in my frog box, and the handy cavity in the frogs mounting bracket than can easily hold my ku65 controller and plugs. I feel better already.

Thank you everyone. I will keep updating you, but hopefully it will be a quite boring shopping mission from here onwards. Well, that's the wheels anyway

 

[wesnewell]

Your original rims are 22 inside width iirc. Just use them for now. Your 2.15" tires will work ok on them. Sell or get a refund on the narrow rims you bought. Keep looking for some wide rims with with 30-35mm inside width. Preferably 32mm, which I consider perfect. They should weigh 750-850g, and they will be a lot tougher than the cheaper narrower rims. They will handle so much better too. I never found bare Weinmann DH39 rims , so I bought whole wheels to get them and don't regret it. Actually used one new front wheel. There are several alternatives like the Alex DX32.

 

[Chalo]

If that's 29.6mm inside width, you'll be very happy with them. If it's 29.6mm outside width, you'll be sadly disappointed as inside width will only be ~23mm.
Just found out they are 23mm. Don't waste your money.
http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/1-5-tire-29mm-rim-431886.html

Sun Mammoth/BFR rims are excellent, but not hugely wide. They have a very tall concave braking surface, which makes any brakes easy to set up effectively. I used them on my wife's e-bike, and they are just the ticket for the 2.0" tires I put on it.

 

[friendly1uk]

Oh dear, I have blundered. Seem to be doing it a lot recently. Used to be every few years, now it's every week. I need some brain training.
Niagara still have the dh39, it was the dm24 I was was looking on amazon for.

I don't really need to look for dh-39's, they are there at $34 each. Elsewhere they are double that, and same again for postage. They won't sell me them though. It's a non starter. I think postage should be more like $50 looking at other sellers, and with wheels that's $130 so with some duty on top they are no more expensive than anything else. I can't have them though. While made in china, I don't see the brand in the uk at all. I'm not paying $300 from other suppliers. A third of my budget. It is pretty much a closed case unless someone wants to gift them to me, so I avoid duty, freeing up a drink. I get issue's with my brakes next though. No spares. It's not ideal.

I don't really have the option of using my currant rims. I could on the front, but the rear would require spokes I don't really want to waste money on. At 21mm they are acceptable, but they are 20 years old and of unknown history. What I do know of them is not good.

It's nice to hear some feedback on the rims I have about settled on. The cheesy composite wind brake didn't install confidence tbh. Having seen more 2.3" tyre's on rims under 20mm than over, I think the 24mm one's really will be ok. I might even be on the large side still in many peoples minds.

 

[friendly1uk]

I'm not sure what sort of lacing to go with. The one cross rear made a 3 cross front look very busy. I would rather the front was the cleaner looking wheel. I was thinking the large hub in the back might warrant lacing both wheels differently. That a 2 cross rear with one cross front might be the better choice.

I know the forum is covered in pics, but I don't recall many people talking about there lacing. I'm happy to do 3 cross on both if it will match up. I do want it strong. I'm just happy to reduce the number of crosses at the front to keep a balanced appearance if necessary.

I have asked the builder, but it seems a little unfair. There is only so much they can do for me.

 

[wesnewell]

You just can't do more than a 1X lacing on 26" rims into a hub motor because the hub is so large. Even a 1x lacing makes the spoke angle into the rim fairly severe with large hub motors. Quit worrying about trying to match the cross pattern. Even if you did match them, they wouldn't look the same because of the different size hubs.

 

[friendly1uk]

Yes, I realise lacing them the same won't make them look the same. That is my concern. If one wheel is going to look more fussy, It wants to be the back one.

d8veh has the same motor in an almost identical sized rim using a 2x. The spoke length calculators don't feel 1x is adequate and steer me to 3x or 4x so I don't think I'm stuck with 1x. I have not found a spoke calc that actually shows the results though, and can't imagine what a 4x would look like. I just don't have the experience.

 

[Chalo]

d8veh has the same motor in an almost identical sized rim using a 2x. The spoke length calculators don't feel 1x is adequate and steer me to 3x or 4x so I don't think I'm stuck with 1x. I have not found a spoke calc that actually shows the results though, and can't imagine what a 4x would look like. I just don't have the experience.

http://lenni.info/edd

Don't use more than one cross on a hub motor. Your spokes will break at the threaded end if you do.

 

[friendly1uk]

Hello Chalo

I had my 1x and 3x side by side today, and saw the spokes on the 1x driven wheel are actually entering the rim at a worse angle than the 3 cross spokes on the normal sized hub. That was all I needed to see really. I imagine the 1x driven wheel is actually stronger than the 3 cross normal one. The angle being important, not cross count. I was allowing myself to believe what I can see for myself is not quite so.

Looks like 1x for both then

 

[-dg]

Don't use more than one cross on a hub motor. Your spokes will break at the threaded end if you do.

What about two cross on a small geared hub motor (113mm spoke hole diameter) in a 700c (sun cr-18) rim? Is that a practical combination? Kinda late to be asking since I already built it and it looks ok but this is outside my experience so I don't really know.