Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

[nicobie]

The problem was always the listening to the people who said, "now we can't be hasty about things", "there simply aren't the resources" ...

 

[Hillhater]

We had decades to 'taper off' of Fossil Fuels. Now we don't…..

We didnt “taper off” because we could not without suitable alternatives becoming available…and they were not !
…and they still will not be available in scale or affordable practicality to replace even a fraction of fossil energy.
fossils still provide over 95% of all energy demand.
Any significant reduction in fossil fuel usage ..50+%…will take multiple decades to occurr,…if ever !
So if you really believe in your “imminent doom” prediction, i suggest you start making ready !
But i remind you how many times such predictions have proven to be false alarms !

nuclear powerplants …………and the waste HEAT that they produce will be a problem….

Here is a heads up for you…
no matter how we produce or use energy..Solar , Wind, Hydro, etc, etc,….or how much is wasted in the production, eventually practically ALL that energy ends up as heat ( exceptions being the small amounts of energy stored in some form)

 

[nicobie]

no matter how we produce or use energy..Solar , Wind, Hydro, etc, etc,….or how much is wasted in the production, eventually practically ALL that energy ends up as heat ( exceptions being the small amounts of energy stored in some form)

Sad isn't it. It doesn't look good for Homo S.

 

[Hillhater]

Sad isn't it. It doesn't look good for Homo S.

Why ?
since 1900 the world population has quadrupled (1.6 - 7.4bn), and health improved such that average life expectancy has more than doubled to over 70 yrs .
Things look fine , unless you hold the cult like belief that 1-2deg C will destroy the human population !

 

[JackFlorey]

Dry cask storage where? Unless it's on the Moon, that's not good enough.

At the reactors. In the desert. There has never been a significant dry cask radioactive material release, and there are thousands of them worldwide.

If you don't like that, put them in Yucca Mountain.

If you don't like that, drop them in ocean subduction zones, and they will disappear and return to deep in the Earth's crust where they came from to begin with.

Do you know why there aren't more Nuclear Disasters? Because there are hardly any Nuclear Reactors.

There are over 5000 nuclear reactors worldwide, and over 400 that produce electrical power.

Until we have off planet storage for Nuclear Waste

You mean, launch them in fallible rockets, that could fail and drop a load of nuclear waste from four miles high on a town? Seems like a bad idea when storage here works perfectly well. It also means that once we get over our fear of fuel reprocessing, we have a ready source of new fuel.

 

[JackFlorey]

Gotcha. 95 in the U.S. alone. OMG that's a LOT. How many Fossil Fuel powerplants do you think are operating in the U.S. alone? How many thousand, coal, natural gas, diesel, whatever powerplants do you think are operating in the U.S. alone?

Like you said, thousands. And there have been hundreds of deaths as a direct result of fossil fuel power as well. They just don't make the news.

Here's a few examples. In 2000, a natural gas pipeline feeding power plants in Carlsbad, NM exploded, incinerating ten campers (five adults and five children) and putting two people in the hospital with burns over most of their bodies. In 2008, a dam holding back coal plant waste burst, exposing rescue workers to toxic, radioactive waste. Over the next 10 years, 30 workers died of cancer as a result of the exposure. In 1972, another coal waste dam failure in Kentucky killed 125 people, injured over 1000 and destroyed 500 homes.

Funny how you never hear about them.

And those are just the direct deaths. In 2004, a study by ABT Associates estimated that 30,000 people were dying a year from toxic and radioactive emissions from coal fired power plants. As emissions controls have improved that number has dropped dramatically. It was down to "only" 13,200 by 2010.

Now let's compare that to the death toll from nuclear power in the US:
Direct public deaths: 0
Indirect public deaths: 0

From that perspective there is absolutely no contest. Nuclear is FAR FAR safer than fossil fuel power.

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

There are over 5000 nuclear reactors worldwide, and over 400 that produce electrical power.

And don't forget all the reactors used by world militaries; even a horribly ran mess like the USSR only had nuclear accidents from absurd incompetence. Reading about the K19, the Kursk sinking and Soviet RTG-powered lighthouses, even a horrible fuckup of a nation like the USSR somehow, somehow "only" had Chernobyl. And people still live in Prypiat/Chernobyl still, conversely against Sverdlovsk which will be contaminated with Anthrax literally for millennia and can't even host most farm animals!

 

[JackFlorey]

And people still live in Prypiat/Chernobyl still, conversely against Sverdlovsk which will be contaminated with Anthrax literally for millennia and can't even host most farm animals!

About 10 years ago a team went to the Exclusion Zone and did an animal census. They were expecting to find twisted mutations, stunted growth and decimated populations.

Instead, they found it to be the ecologically healthiest area in Ukraine. The removal of the people there did far, far more to help the ecosystem than any damage the higher background radiation could do. Formerly (thought) extinct species have come back, including boar and wild horses.

A sad commentary on what people do to an ecology.

 

[nicobie]

Why ?
since 1900 the world population has quadrupled (1.6 - 7.4bn), and health improved such that average life expectancy has more than doubled to over 70 yrs .
Things look fine , unless you hold the cult like belief that 1-2deg C will destroy the human population !

I don't think, I know that overpopulation will, in the end, kill us all. Your argument just proved my point. Climate change, or whatever you choose to call it, will just speed things up. Everybody thinks that they have a god given right to have kids. And some think they have the right to force me to have them too. fuc'n idiots

 

[leisesturm]

Why ?
since 1900 the world population has quadrupled (1.6 - 7.4bn), and health improved such that average life expectancy has more than doubled to over 70 yrs .
Things look fine , unless you hold the cult like belief that 1-2deg C will destroy the human population !

I know it's hard for you to believe this but. Going forward from 2023 things are going to look very different. What, things can't change? 99% of Americans are so laden with bio-toxins that Human Infertility is now a thing. It wasn't, but now it is. Why is that so hard to understand? Life expectancy has been dropping in the U.S. It had been plateaued for a decade, but is now dropping. Future population increases will be in the Third World among non-technical populations. They too will plateau in ... well it doesn't really matter. The First World depends on growth to flourish. In a stagnated world economy the wealthy will panic. The resulting geo-political instability will wreak havoc on the future sustainability of Humanity.

 

[leisesturm]

And the list is extensive , everyone from Royalty ( Prince, now King Charles in 2000) to teenage schoolgirls in 2016 (Thunberg), and the UN ( now proclaiming the world is “Boiling” !)
NONE, of the scarey predictions have materialised, the population has increased, flora and fauna have flourished, forrests have grown….
….so forgive me if i dont believe a word of this unscientific BS.!

The Wildfires in Australia last fire season took more than a Billion animals offline. Forests? Canada is burning from coast to coast! Where are you living? Not on Planet Earth if you are so uninformed. The scary predictions are arrived! It doesn't matter what you believe. Smokers didn't believe their smoking was harmful. Not to themselves and certainly not to their loved ones. My MIL got heart disease from second hand smoke and her ex was oblivious. Well he got Esophegeal Cancer and pre-deceased her but plenty of smokers have caused the deaths of others without any consequences.

Fossil Fuel lovers say there is nothing else that can replace it. Well that's because of their lobbying! They recorded a WATER temperature of 101.1 deg F in the Pacific this year and the resulting Coral Reef die off is resulting in the starvation and eventual die-off of thousands of species. Not individual specimens, species. B.S. right? Whatever. I bailed out of here a couple of years ago because I knew I wouldn't convince the dug in hardliners of anything. I figured time would do that.

Honestly I didn't expect to find the same old, same old, after all that has happened these last couple years. Criminy, a whole Ice Sheet fell into the South Atlantic raising sea levels 9' earlier this year. That wasn't supposed to happen for another 25 years. What is it going to take? You know its bad when the Insurance Companies cut and run. I mean, you can try and argue that your smoking isn't bad but if you try to tell your insurance company that you don't smoke, you better not get sick. They will kill you. That will be that. Well, when State Farm says they will not insure you no one else is going to. And State Farm is now actively dis-insuring thousands of policyholders. I wonder why they would do that? Hmmm ... ...

 

[gogo]

And the list is extensive , everyone from Royalty ( Prince, now King Charles in 2000) to teenage schoolgirls in 2016 (Thunberg), and the UN ( now proclaiming the world is “Boiling” !)
NONE, of the scarey predictions have materialised, the population has increased, flora and fauna have flourished, forrests have grown….
….so forgive me if i dont believe a word of this unscientific BS.!

The particular details aren't important. What is important is 'original sin', that you are guilty at birth, and that you deserve to be punished for it. Ask not why, or how, or who decides the details. Submit and cower, or suffer!

 

[Hillhater]

……Life expectancy has been dropping in the U.S. It had been plateaued for a decade, but is now dropping……..

Why dont you check some facts before posting BS and making yourself look even more.

• The current life expectancy for U.S. in 2023 is 79.11 years, a 0.08% increase from 2022.
• The life expectancy for U.S. in 2022 was 79.05 years, a 0.08% increase from 2021.
• The life expectancy for U.S. in 2021 was 78.99 years, a 0.08% increase from 2020.
• The life expectancy for U.S. in 2020 was 78.93 years, a 0.08% increase from 2019

U.S. Life Expectancy 1950-2023

Chart and table of U.S. life expectancy from 1950 to 2023. United Nations projections are also included through the year 2100.

www.macrotrends.net

 

[Hillhater]

The Wildfires in Australia last fire season took more than a Billion animals offline. Forests? Canada is burning from coast to coast! Where are you living?

Wildfires are not new. Australia has recorded much worse than the 2019/20 event, and historians have evidence of much worse before records started.
Canada also has a history of similar events ( 1000s of lives lost !)

They recorded a WATER temperature of 101.1 deg F in the Pacific this year….

You really dont check you info , do you..
that was Manatee bay, practically a closed shallow lagoon.
Open ocean temperatures NEVER exceed 33C (91F)
But what do you think heated that water ?…high atmospheric temperatures , or the direct sunlight ?

Criminy, a whole Ice Sheet fell into the South Atlantic raising sea levels 9' earlier this year…..

wow ! How did we all miss a 9’ rise in sea levels ?
…..would that not put most of Florida under water ?

 

[TheBeastie]

Decent new video about nuclear and it's current state.

I watched it last week so already forgot some bits, but I believe it failed to mention new news stuff like chatGPT/OpenAI's boss and creator are starting a nuclear company using a very remotely similar model as NuScale SMR where the whole nuclear reactor can be built in factories and transported in trucks and put together quickly BUT that Sam Altman wants to go with ~19% enriched uranium so his reactors only need to be refuelled every 10 years and there is no maintenance needed to be done in between, this saves a lot on costs since u basically don't need to do anything for 10 years. But he says of course there would be at least a two-person team watching the reactor 24/7 etc..

OpenAI's Sam Altman Takes Nuclear Startup Public

A startup led by OpenAI boss Sam Altman that is working on developing small nuclear fission reactors is going public with a valuation of $850 million.

www.barrons.com

I am so sick of the classic comment from anti-nuclear people who ALWAYS refer to 1960s era nuclear designs and say "but they take forever to build and you have to refuel them every 12 months etc"
I don't know of ANYONE who wants an old-school reactor...

Also, I have been asking Google's AI complex questions about "solar/wind renewables + battery backup" VS "nuclear" and their co2 footprints, so far I can get some remarkably accurate answers out of the tech, and Google allows you to share the URL of its official response ‎‎Created with Google's AI Bard https://g.co/bard/share/eb30caad40d5
Rather than chatGPT's screenshot "trust me bro" system.

 

[leisesturm]

Why dont you check some facts before posting BS and making yourself look even more stupid..

U.S. Life Expectancy 1950-2023

Chart and table of U.S. life expectancy from 1950 to 2023. United Nations projections are also included through the year 2100.

www.macrotrends.net

Those numbers look very manufactured. But even if authentic ... they are hardly inspiring! Nope, the straight dope says its all coming down and why you need to dispute that I have no idea. Do you really think we can carry on this way fa la la to 2100 and beyond? Even if you do plenty of people do not. Why does it matter? Well for one thing, people that don't think there is anything to live for anymore are increasingly deciding to take total strangers with them into the next life. The despair is only getting started. What might give people some hope? Maybe if they saw the people with the power to make changes make some? <shrug>

 

[Hillhater]

Those numbers look very manufactured. But even if authentic ... they are hardly inspiring! Nope, the straight dope says its all coming down and why you need to dispute that I have no idea

Maybe that “straight dope” is the problem ?…….…..
..and yes, i agree you do have “no idea”
I am not disputing it,….just pointing out the facts,…and your false beliefs.

 

[nicobie]

…..would that not put most of Florida under water ?

Wish'in and hoping, planning and dreaming, doing the best that I can...

 

[Ianhill]

A wildfire in the mountains can actually be beneficial for the area if its become densly packed with over growth, as long as it doesn't occur in the area year on year etc.

This summer has been declared the hottest on record for europe due to greece hot temperatures but literally a stones throw away uk has had an exceptionally wet and coldest july and its not given up in august either.

Yes the world is changing it always has, and yes some is man driven but the dramatisation i hear is absolutely obsurd i was told by the legacy media streams that 5 years ago we had 10 left to make a change or watch my world go out of control.

Well the onlu thing i see out of control are the banking sector, the stock market and its surrounding corruption, the push the be a supporter or part of the lgbt sandwich brigade and dump my pronouns like im rebeling against something while forgeting whats be tought in the past and write a new rule book and even teach on too !

Its not the weather or our demand for energy thats the problem its our mental state thats been induced from continously exposing our self to screens feeding conflicting information with reality, its not the world thats in a predicament its a percentage of the humans that live in it if you be too far LEFT or RIGHT not many walk a road of middle ground and question establishment enough to hear or see that the real issues are drugs, corruption and lawlessness complete loss of grip on humanity from allowing to many problems to exist for to long and grown into todays sespit the rich try to avoid so much.

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

I am so sick of the classic comment from anti-nuclear people who ALWAYS refer to 1960s era nuclear designs and say "but they take forever to build and you have to refuel them every 12 months etc"
I don't know of ANYONE who wants an old-school reactor...

I personally, have hit a point where the instant I hear classic comments like that I refuse to listen to the other person and rapidly start mocking them- they'll do it particularly heavily with anything renewable, if it's an EV or solar or anything. It's really just a defense mechanism against "new things" to me now and we're only finally realizing those people will do nothing but complain. Seriously, just tell them you're going to do it and they can't stop you! They get defeated fast.

A wildfire in the mountains can actually be beneficial for the area if its become densly packed with over growth, as long as it doesn't occur in the area year on year etc.

This summer has been declared the hottest on record for europe due to greece hot temperatures but literally a stones throw away uk has had an exceptionally wet and coldest july and its not given up in august either.

Yes the world is changing it always has, and yes some is man driven but the dramatisation i hear is absolutely obsurd i was told by the legacy media streams that 5 years ago we had 10 left to make a change or watch my world go out of control.

Well the onlu thing i see out of control are the banking sector, the stock market and its surrounding corruption, the push the be a supporter or part of the lgbt sandwich brigade and dump my pronouns like im rebeling against something while forgeting whats be tought in the past and write a new rule book and even teach on too !

Its not the weather or our demand for energy thats the problem its our mental state thats been induced from continously exposing our self to screens feeding conflicting information with reality, its not the world thats in a predicament its a percentage of the humans that live in it if you be too far LEFT or RIGHT not many walk a road of middle ground and question establishment enough to hear or see that the real issues are drugs, corruption and lawlessness complete loss of grip on humanity from allowing to many problems to exist for to long and grown into todays sespit the rich try to avoid so much.

Quit trying to turn a discussion about alternative energies into a tirade about gays and finance. The instant you called a group of people who are literally fighting to live in many nations a "Brigade" shows your "middle ground" comment is full of it.

 

[Hillhater]

I personally, have hit a point where the instant I hear classic comments like that I refuse to listen to the other person and rapidly start mocking them- they'll do it particularly heavily with anything renewable, if it's an EV or solar or anything. It's really just a defense mechanism against "new things" to me now and we're only finally realizing those people will do nothing but complain. Seriously, just tell them you're going to do it and they can't stop you! They get defeated fast.

That is not a very “adult” way of responding to such comments, it doesnt achieve anything other than more division.
what if their position is not “just a defense mechanism against anything new”, but instead had real data to prove their point ?
Instead of mocking, try pointing out facts to see if they really understand the issue or are just repeating common myths or misinformation.

 

[Ianhill]

Considerable shouting.

If you don't think that lgbt is out of control thats fine but as a person with homosexuals as freinds and family not gays as you said im just repeating what they feel i wouldn't walk up in street and call them that, they have an unease for society to say its inclusive while minoritising a propotion of its ordnance.

Im not trying to twist a thread im mearly pointing out that there much more pressing issues within our society than keeping the lights on like keeping us fead and free from war and such heavy corruption of our leaders.

And where do you think our energy grew from ? A strong economy that required its demand and had the resources techinal know how from unique individuals plus funding into making it happen so economy, education and finance is vital to a strong power grid.

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

That is not a very “adult” way of responding to such comments, it doesnt achieve anything other than more division.
what if their position is not “just a defense mechanism against anything new”, but instead had real data to prove their point ?
Instead of mocking, try pointing out facts to see if they really understand the issue or are just repeating common myths or misinformation.

You're quoting right wing propaganda at me word for word, and you're not an American so you don't really know what they're doing now. Can't get snakes from chicken eggs is the current alt-right narrative; it's all emotion. You can't reason with these people because they refuse to accept reason at it's core, which is why people like myself have gotten death threats even in person from them from just ringing their doorbell.
"Division" is a cope they use when you point out painful truths. I had a coworker accuse me of that when I called the Jan 6th riots a terrorist attempt to overthrow democracy.

Im not trying to twist a thread im mearly pointing out that there much more pressing issues within our society than keeping the lights on like keeping us fead and free from war and such heavy corruption of our leaders.

And where do you think our energy grew from ? A strong economy that required its demand and had the resources techinal know how from unique individuals plus funding into making it happen so economy, education and finance is vital to a strong power grid.

We have politicians who are now trying to build actual lists of trans people, like where they live and where they work. They're also calling gays "pedophiles" and spreading false accusations that they're all grooming children for sex. If you don't see how politicians doing isn't extremely concerning- considering how past genocides have started with vilification of a group and the number of hate crimes preformed against them- you need to check yourself.
I seriously doubt you have gay friends after saying that.

 

[Ianhill]

You argued against what i said then enforced it, i dont just have gay friends i have family too so i have no issues with men that have differing flavour tastes to my own but i do have issue with children been dragged down a rabbit hole too theres much wrong with progresive policy that i dont think this thread is intended for.

But to ignore the state of politics the driving force behind the mess some countrys are in is insane the problem is the U.S is so insulated from the world and its beliefs that many follow from heart not knowledge or self decision more hurd mentaility.

Mental health and beliefs are braking down shame on your leaders i say not you.

 

[JackFlorey]

I am so sick of the classic comment from anti-nuclear people who ALWAYS refer to 1960s era nuclear designs and say "but they take forever to build and you have to refuel them every 12 months etc"
I don't know of ANYONE who wants an old-school reactor...

I am all for new reactors. But until they have a track record, I will believe in them as much as I believe in the endless announcements of "new 1000 mile EV battery that charges in 5 minutes!" batteries.

In the 1990's, Westinghouse began work on a new Gen 4 reactor, the AP600. It was passively safe, easy to build, and much cheaper than other designs (according to Westinghouse.) "36 months from first concrete to fuel load" was their tagline, a big deal to utilities that had been plagued by delays when trying to build nuclear power plants.

They made minor modifications to turn it into the AP1000 because their marketing data indicated that's what utilities wanted, but they kept touting the same benefits. They also incorporated some features from the "System 80" design which was also a simplified reactor design from Combustion Engineering.

In 2003, Southern Company was looking to expand their Vogtle power plant. They decided to go with the AP1000 design and sent a letter of intent. With an actual customer on the books, Westinghouse was able to finally finish the design and get final design approval from the NRC in 2005. That led to Southern filing an Early Site Permit for two new reactors in 2006. Work began. They initially thought that the plants would be operational in 2016 and 2017, considerably longer than the "36 months from first concrete to fuel load."

The first of the two plants just came on line a few days ago. From planning to operation was 20 years, and from first concrete to fuel load was 16 years. And that's with a Gen 4 simplified reactor - in your terms "a new-school reactor."

I'm glad they got it on line, and I am glad we will have that experience available for the next reactor we build. Perhaps it will go faster next time. But for now, what the US power industry has SHOWN is that it takes them 16-20 years to build a new reactor. That's not an attack on nuclear reactors. That's proven reality.

If SMR's work out, awesome, I'll be all for them. But until a utility orders one, they install it and have it produce power, I will consider all the claims about them to be similar to the "36 months from first concrete to fuel load" claims.