pff7
100 W
Battery newbie here...after going through the hobbyking catalog, is it possible to use the 1s batteries to replace bad cells say in the 6s battery category say. I haven't got these batteries yet in front of me but I was wondering?
Zippy vs Turnigy vs nano-tech according to HK
- Thread starter cwah
- Start date
pff7
100 W
pff7 said:
quoting Hyena "only 1 cell of the 18 died" is why I ask....
Ykick
1 GW
pff7 said:
Yes, it's possible and some have done just that buying loose cells. However, many of us buy an extra brick or two and then scavenge good cells for repair from our dud bricks. That way you wind up with a closer match to the rest of the cells if/when you need to replace some.
Ypedal has a very good video for what I call "brick surgery" and if you're prepared with proper soldering iron/tip it can be a viable method to rebuild bricks and replace bad cells. I've done about half dozen surgeries so far and saved a brick or two and/or re-purposed a few bricks for other applications.
If you go this route, screw large shrinkwrap. Just wrap 'em back up with plastic packing or food wrap then cover with a few turns of filament tape. Clear plastic wrap just makes it easier to remove the tape if you ever need to go back in there...
pff7
100 W
I was going to go with the hardpack case 4s---can the hardpack cases be gotten into with this "brick surgery"?
Hey after 11 months or using Zippy RC Lipos and more than 100 + cycles on them i only have an issue that i wish i never decided to go with Zippy after all.
The packs even when they where new they never putted out more than 4 ah best.So in a 15 Ah pack with little stress for the individual packs and the cycles i told you i get 8,5 ah when i charge at 4.1 and 9.5 when i charge at 4.2.
No bad cells on the pack what so ever.So if you ask me that i treated them like they where little babies i will never trust this brand again.
I expected them to last for one year more with charging at 4.1 and never discharging below 3.61.Are zippy packs so bad or i just miss something in the way ?
The packs even when they where new they never putted out more than 4 ah best.So in a 15 Ah pack with little stress for the individual packs and the cycles i told you i get 8,5 ah when i charge at 4.1 and 9.5 when i charge at 4.2.
No bad cells on the pack what so ever.So if you ask me that i treated them like they where little babies i will never trust this brand again.
I expected them to last for one year more with charging at 4.1 and never discharging below 3.61.Are zippy packs so bad or i just miss something in the way ?
etriker
100 kW
I used to think the people on here that were suggesting to others to use HK lipo on their ebikes were either being paid by HK or were being paid by big oil to damage the ev movement.
etriker
100 kW
I still think that people that suggest ebikers use HK lipo on their bikes are hurting the ev movement.
etriker
100 kW
I believe that the people on here suggesting ebikers use HK lipo also damage the rep of ES.
Someone is paying the bill to keep this forum up and it is not HK ?
Yet so many members use this forum to help them sell crap batteries to our members ?
Is getting on here and suggesting members buy and use HK lipo fair to Justin and his good rep ? ? ?
Someone is paying the bill to keep this forum up and it is not HK ?
Yet so many members use this forum to help them sell crap batteries to our members ?
Is getting on here and suggesting members buy and use HK lipo fair to Justin and his good rep ? ? ?
jonescg
100 MW
I think the consensus on Herewin/Hayin/Turnigy/Zippy cells is that they are cheap and powerful but the QC is hit and miss. Most folks won't put more than 300 cycles on their packs before building another bike, giving up and buying a motorcycle or just jumping onto the next best chemistry. Hobbyking cells are relatively cheap, but you don't have to pay much more to get a top quality cell.
I'm planning on using the Herewin/Hayin/Turnigy 40C cells in my race bike simply because they will work in the space available and can put out the power for a short race format. Would I use them in a daily commuter? E-bike maybe. E-moto? Definitely not. Car? Asking for a fireball. I'll go with a better quality cell for these applications.
I'm planning on using the Herewin/Hayin/Turnigy 40C cells in my race bike simply because they will work in the space available and can put out the power for a short race format. Would I use them in a daily commuter? E-bike maybe. E-moto? Definitely not. Car? Asking for a fireball. I'll go with a better quality cell for these applications.
Tinto
100 W
etriker said:
A statement like that without an alternative being presented comes across as confusing to those of us relatively new to the "ev movement."
HK cells suit the buy-it-now culture we all operate in. What is your comparable alternative?
Disclaimer - I'm currently using HK cells, but have no alliance etc.
I genuinely would like to know of a comparable alternative if you have one to suggest, as I have no doubt ill be looking to further customise my battery setup in the future as my knowledge expands.
etriker
100 kW
Alot of d.i.y. in Florida USA. 
We are working on making better and easier to use extender packs to back up main A123 m1 cell packs.
A123 is still in business ?
We are working on making better and easier to use extender packs to back up main A123 m1 cell packs.
A123 is still in business ?
etriker
100 kW
Tinto said:
I read this forum back in the day and the first li ion I bought was HK lipo because I bought into the groupthink hype.
Got ripped off first try.
Still have not got over it.
If anyone else gets ripped off by HK for batteries because they read this forum it won't be because of this member.
I will call out a crooked seller ! ! !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink
Ykick
1 GW
Some folks can't sharpen a Pencil. It's not the Pencil's fault.....
pendragon8000
100 kW
Thanks for all contributions to this thread. Very helpful.
I spoke to an rc guy doing 3D flight in the park because I was interested in is opinion of nano tecs. Turns out he was really knowledgeable and experienced and recording some flight with a go pro to put together a video trying to get sponsored.
Anyway he knew lipo back to front and said 40c turnigy blue packs were better than nano techs. He said nanos are lighter but puff more and are a waist of money. Also, 40c blue packs will give about double useable capacity of 25c at high current usage (40amps), as in they will only sag half as much I guess you could say. And for only a 25% increase in price.
I trust what he said because of all the charging and usage knowldge he had and he understood the difference in power usage of ebikes compared to rc and different voltage. I let him have a go on the Scott spark to so he could understand it better.
Anyway just one rc dudes opinion but worth putting up.
I have used 25c turnigy and they are cool but do sag after a few months in cold weather under high load to give seemingly 50% or worse rated capacity. In my experience. (>100 cycles pulling 2.5kw in 10°C)
I spoke to an rc guy doing 3D flight in the park because I was interested in is opinion of nano tecs. Turns out he was really knowledgeable and experienced and recording some flight with a go pro to put together a video trying to get sponsored.
Anyway he knew lipo back to front and said 40c turnigy blue packs were better than nano techs. He said nanos are lighter but puff more and are a waist of money. Also, 40c blue packs will give about double useable capacity of 25c at high current usage (40amps), as in they will only sag half as much I guess you could say. And for only a 25% increase in price.
I trust what he said because of all the charging and usage knowldge he had and he understood the difference in power usage of ebikes compared to rc and different voltage. I let him have a go on the Scott spark to so he could understand it better.
Anyway just one rc dudes opinion but worth putting up.
I have used 25c turnigy and they are cool but do sag after a few months in cold weather under high load to give seemingly 50% or worse rated capacity. In my experience. (>100 cycles pulling 2.5kw in 10°C)
pucksterpete
1 kW
and now I know why or what was the problem with my packs. Turnigy 20C 5000 mAh hardcase packs. 24S 3P, almost getting 10Ah out of it, no more 14Ah days. got this pack running back in mid march....
ddk
100 kW
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2011
- Messages
- 1,903
don't understand what exactly you're saying.pucksterpete said:
*that said*
if you were discharging 14Ah from a 15Ah battery pack, congratulations! you successfully damaged your battery pack. Apparently you did this over and over again and again.
-which is why most of us who use RC LiCo batteries warn that the user HAS TO UNDERSTAND the limitations of LiCo, or any other battery chemistry they decide to use.
It even pays to know how so-called "safe" batteries should be treated.
OCMike
100 W
I think I'm glad I didn't read this thread before I jumped and bought 6 Zippy 6S 8000ah and 3 zippy 3S 8000ah LiPo's. But only time will tell. Had I read this thread I likely wouldn't have done it - I've got about $700 worth of Zippy's. I charge to 4.1v/cell and target discharge to 3.6v/cell. No problems - Sag about 2v at WOT. I've ridden 28mi on a single charge with my 15S1p (8amp-hour) pack. I balance charge over 90% of the time. I don't let them sit discharged more than 24 hours. I, on occasion, let them sit fully charged for 72 hours. So far, really good.
However, I'm a little worried about when the time comes that I'll need to either do surgery on them or just buy new ones. I think surgery is the way to go. I'm a total noob/amateur to e-bike and rc LiPo. I've dealt with no other battery technology. But it seems like the guys here who seem to really know how to take care of batteries have no problems and even have good stories/experiences. What am I missing? I think if I follow best practices in the care of my batteries, they'll treat me right.
HK selling crap makes no business sense. Reputation is everything. Earning a good reputation takes a LONG time. Earning a bad reputation takes about 10 minutes. A bad reputation is crippling to a business. Negative comments cut deep whereas positive comments can seem almost anecdotal considering my level of risk aversion. Reading so many negative comments I guess I've been lucky.
However, I'm a little worried about when the time comes that I'll need to either do surgery on them or just buy new ones. I think surgery is the way to go. I'm a total noob/amateur to e-bike and rc LiPo. I've dealt with no other battery technology. But it seems like the guys here who seem to really know how to take care of batteries have no problems and even have good stories/experiences. What am I missing? I think if I follow best practices in the care of my batteries, they'll treat me right.
HK selling crap makes no business sense. Reputation is everything. Earning a good reputation takes a LONG time. Earning a bad reputation takes about 10 minutes. A bad reputation is crippling to a business. Negative comments cut deep whereas positive comments can seem almost anecdotal considering my level of risk aversion. Reading so many negative comments I guess I've been lucky.
pucksterpete
1 kW
ddk said:
Never went that far only a few times, 84v, 3.5 a cell is my lvc......i guess that's not the problem then
dnmun
1 PW
do you have a BMS that is set to 3.5V/cell? or do you use cellogs to monitor the individual cell voltage when discharging and how does the pack balance itself when charging?
it does not hurt the cell to discharge it fully but it shortens the life if you do it constantly. there is an article at battery university about how storage at full charge and high temperature also shortens cell life.
but if you don't have a BMS to protect it from overcharge or overdischarge then that could be a factor in reduced capacity. overcharge also carries the risk of fire also.
edit, from wikipedia:
"Cells sold today as polymer batteries are pouch cells. Unlike lithium-ion cylindrical cells, which have a rigid metal case, pouch cells have a flexible, foil-type (polymer laminate) case. In cylindrical cells, the rigid case presses the electrodes and the separator onto each other; whereas in polymer cells this external pressure is not required (nor often used) because the electrode sheets and the separator sheets are laminated onto each other. Since individual pouch cells have no strong metal casing, by themselves they are over 20% lighter than equivalent cylindrical cells.
The voltage of a Li-poly cell varies from about 2.7 V (discharged) to about 4.23 V (fully charged), and Li-poly cells have to be protected from overcharge by limiting the applied voltage to no more than 4.235 V per cell used in a series combination.
Early in its development, lithium polymer technology had problems with high internal resistance. Other challenges included longer charge times and lower maximum discharge rates compared to more mature technologies. In December 2007 Toshiba announced a new design offering a much faster rate of charge (about 5 minutes to reach 90%). These cells were released onto the market in March 2008 and were expected to have a dramatic effect on the power tool and electric vehicle industries, and a major effect on consumer electronics.[3] Recent design improvements have increased maximum discharge currents from 2 times to 65 or even 90 times the cell capacity charge per hour.
In recent years, manufacturers have been declaring upwards of 500 charge-discharge cycles before the capacity drops to 80% (see Sanyo). Another variant of Li-poly cells, the "thin film rechargeable lithium battery", has been shown to provide more than 10,000 cycles."
it does not hurt the cell to discharge it fully but it shortens the life if you do it constantly. there is an article at battery university about how storage at full charge and high temperature also shortens cell life.
but if you don't have a BMS to protect it from overcharge or overdischarge then that could be a factor in reduced capacity. overcharge also carries the risk of fire also.
edit, from wikipedia:
"Cells sold today as polymer batteries are pouch cells. Unlike lithium-ion cylindrical cells, which have a rigid metal case, pouch cells have a flexible, foil-type (polymer laminate) case. In cylindrical cells, the rigid case presses the electrodes and the separator onto each other; whereas in polymer cells this external pressure is not required (nor often used) because the electrode sheets and the separator sheets are laminated onto each other. Since individual pouch cells have no strong metal casing, by themselves they are over 20% lighter than equivalent cylindrical cells.
The voltage of a Li-poly cell varies from about 2.7 V (discharged) to about 4.23 V (fully charged), and Li-poly cells have to be protected from overcharge by limiting the applied voltage to no more than 4.235 V per cell used in a series combination.
Early in its development, lithium polymer technology had problems with high internal resistance. Other challenges included longer charge times and lower maximum discharge rates compared to more mature technologies. In December 2007 Toshiba announced a new design offering a much faster rate of charge (about 5 minutes to reach 90%). These cells were released onto the market in March 2008 and were expected to have a dramatic effect on the power tool and electric vehicle industries, and a major effect on consumer electronics.[3] Recent design improvements have increased maximum discharge currents from 2 times to 65 or even 90 times the cell capacity charge per hour.
In recent years, manufacturers have been declaring upwards of 500 charge-discharge cycles before the capacity drops to 80% (see Sanyo). Another variant of Li-poly cells, the "thin film rechargeable lithium battery", has been shown to provide more than 10,000 cycles."
pucksterpete
1 kW
Here is my charging & discharging scenario
When I first got the lipos, I did an initial cycle using the ICharger 306B to find out if my lipos were giving 5000mAh, per advice from Icecube. For the most part the 18 packs were all good, a few were not hitting the 5000mAh mark, but I had purchased 30 of these packs in total to also use on another bike. The 18 packs that are being used for the 24S 3P config were all giving 5000mAh.
I have 3 chargers, Icharger 306B, BC168, Mastech 100V for bulk charging. With the 18 packs being used, I balance them once a month or when they start drifting a little. The rest of the time I am bulk charging using the Mastech. I do use cell logs to monitor when bulk charging. I charge to 4.18v a cell & discharge to 3.5v a cell.
As far as monitoring while riding, no bms, just the CA lvc set for 84V and the same on the 4115 controller. I do run a cell log over each of the cells after riding and the cells are right on to each other.
I have the controller to a pretty conservative setting 60A battery & 130A phase. I have had burst of over 100A, I don't let the CA limit the controller for amps. Now, maybe the burst 100A or sustain amps of 20A for a few minutes is beating up the pack, I don't know.
I had only run this pack to 14Ah a few times, but mostly 9Ah is what I would end up using. It was just last week that I hit the lvc at 84V, but the CA showed I had only used a little over 9Ah.
The voltage sag for me is this, 3 to 4 volts drop off when accelerating pretty hard, once I level the speed, their back up.
It was just nice to know that I had around 15Ah if needed. I do have room to add another 6 packs for 4p, and have the 20Ah
so, I'm not sure what happened
When I first got the lipos, I did an initial cycle using the ICharger 306B to find out if my lipos were giving 5000mAh, per advice from Icecube. For the most part the 18 packs were all good, a few were not hitting the 5000mAh mark, but I had purchased 30 of these packs in total to also use on another bike. The 18 packs that are being used for the 24S 3P config were all giving 5000mAh.
I have 3 chargers, Icharger 306B, BC168, Mastech 100V for bulk charging. With the 18 packs being used, I balance them once a month or when they start drifting a little. The rest of the time I am bulk charging using the Mastech. I do use cell logs to monitor when bulk charging. I charge to 4.18v a cell & discharge to 3.5v a cell.
As far as monitoring while riding, no bms, just the CA lvc set for 84V and the same on the 4115 controller. I do run a cell log over each of the cells after riding and the cells are right on to each other.
I have the controller to a pretty conservative setting 60A battery & 130A phase. I have had burst of over 100A, I don't let the CA limit the controller for amps. Now, maybe the burst 100A or sustain amps of 20A for a few minutes is beating up the pack, I don't know.
I had only run this pack to 14Ah a few times, but mostly 9Ah is what I would end up using. It was just last week that I hit the lvc at 84V, but the CA showed I had only used a little over 9Ah.
The voltage sag for me is this, 3 to 4 volts drop off when accelerating pretty hard, once I level the speed, their back up.
It was just nice to know that I had around 15Ah if needed. I do have room to add another 6 packs for 4p, and have the 20Ah
so, I'm not sure what happened
If you guys read my post on HobbyKing return process, I would reckon you won't want to deal with these crooks. So far what I have found out is these lipo are actually not cheap, safe, high quality, or better in anyway compared to other source of lithium battery. In the old days, it was hard to get quality lithium.
Now you can get them easily and cheaply.
Take for instance the Nissan leaf battery on eBay. There is a thread on it. It is about 1/2 the price of lipo on HK.
If you want something not used, look at enerdel in USA.
There are also cells from A123 for cheap here on the forum and some website because A123 is selling off there stock on cells.
Conclusion:
In the old days there were no alternatives, hence you have to deal with the devil. But now there are so many alternatives, you don't have go to them anymore.
Now you can get them easily and cheaply.
Take for instance the Nissan leaf battery on eBay. There is a thread on it. It is about 1/2 the price of lipo on HK.
If you want something not used, look at enerdel in USA.
There are also cells from A123 for cheap here on the forum and some website because A123 is selling off there stock on cells.
Conclusion:
In the old days there were no alternatives, hence you have to deal with the devil. But now there are so many alternatives, you don't have go to them anymore.
triggeraa
100 W
Good luck with that. ^^^ 
pendragon8000
100 kW
[youtube]fucFhqx-hHw[/youtube]pendragon8000 said:
