is this for real?

i was offered the following:

The ultra compact 52V 10Ah one is actually two 26V ultra compact batteries put in series. This makes it even easier to fit on your bike since you can Battery Pack Densions: 160x85x65 mm or 6.4x3.3x2.5 inches. (Yes, it is actually that small) Weight : 3 lbs (yes it is actually that light) Discharging Current: 50A Continuous. (Yes, it is actually 5C continuous the despite small size and weight.) Over Discharge Protection/Max Current: 83A Charging Voltage: 29.4 Discharge Cut-off Voltage : 21.0

Cost of 2 of these and 2 chargers (for 52V 10Ah) is $879 and only weights 6 lbs. $879 may seem like a lot until you realize what this battery can do. I know of no other battery this small that can deliver this much current. I have a picture of this battery attached (it is black). These may even be small enough to fit in frame mounted bags (I have picture of this as well).

has anyone heard of this its from electric bikes.. howell

um.. as far as i know, no such chemistry meeting that spec exists..

You say it's from 'electric bikes'? is there a company called 'electric bikes'?

no its a store they have a website..its called electro ride www.electric-bikes.com/betterbikes/lfp.html

Yeah, ok. Those don't seem right for a 5C continuous capable battery. There's fudge in one of those specifications and that price is rather high too.

In the lipo world, just for the bare packs, you are looking at 150-160wHr/KG, so a 10AH 10S pack is going to weigh just about 5.5-6lb in itself. This would be a 180-200wHr/KG pack when you add the BMS, padding / wrapping, and wiring in, but i've never heard of a cell with that energy AND power density.

For $900 + shipping, do you want to be the guinea pig?

a fudge?

i give up i just cant get a brake here, everyone warns how i should not get a crank motor how the performance of a crank motor is equel to a hub motor

i live in israel they only allow 250watt hub motors so i cant relay on any local merchants for support now it seems i can relay on anyone. all i want is a dependable system for 40 km ride. ecospeed seemed reliable but the current hacked chinese crank drive scares me and i dont wanna be a guinea pig for ecospeed as as everyone telss me that crank motors are a huge deal and that parts like chain and sprockets must be replaced every month or so.

The only way it's possible is if they mean 3lbs per 10Ah 26v pack. Even then it's ~190wh/kg, which is boarding on the highest energy density RC lipo out there.

"betterbikes" has spammed their stuff all over the place trying to sell their "junk". We've removed lots of their spam as they try to post it here on ES. There have been positive posts about them, too, though, so they may have good stuff, as well as stuff like what you are finding.

Unfortunatley most places selling batteries (either as cells or as packs) seem to lie about their specifications, and in some cases don't even have any idea what the specs of the things they sell really are. They either make them up or they spout whatever they were told about them, and that's usually not true either.

The same is true of entire ebikes and ebike kits.

ok, so i'm assuming better bikes is a no go as well as what he told me about BMC and ecospped, so what do i do? who do i trust? what's the reputation of ecospeed , are they dependable?

The battery appears to be two paralelled pairs of lipo packs. 3 pounds per pack is about right, 6 pounds per pair.

Just an innocent typo eh?

Stuff like this, though distastefull, doesn't mean you will get junk if you buy from them. Some of what they sell may be junk, other stuff ok. And it's hard for us to say this is junk and that is not unless we actually try it. Spamming the site here doesn't make them freinds here though.

The list of vendors we like here is still pretty short. The "not on the list" vendors may not be all that bad, but to get on the list, they have to put up a really proven track record of good CS as well as a decent product. Then people have to start writing about it here, so we know about it.

For others who may not have been following your posts, what exactly are your needs? Looking for a pre built bike cheap? Willing to do a kit? I'm confused about 250w. I understand that's all they can sell in a local shop, but you are looking for more? How much more? Would an Ezee kit from the best ebike kit vendor worldwide do you? Grin Cyclery.

wel.. this is the exact mail, i've send to ecospeed, as it contains my entire story:

first of all some stats:

i'm 6'3 240 pounds, my curent setup is 2 24V ion-lithium batteries, on a 500 crank engine, sitting on bracket specially printed for the bycicle.

after making many many measurments, i can say that i write only in first gear which would yield a max speed of 29 kph. i could go on a range of 35 km, in 90 minutes.

i need something faster, and i need something that can take me more then 40 km a day. (20 km each direction).
considering that in first gear i'm going 15kph, i predict that 1000watt engine would give a speed of at least 45 km..

my climbs may go up to 15 degrees (althugh not many)

now for the problems, recently the folks who installed this engine got ratted on (cause crank engine are not legal to import), as a result they refused to support me any longer, now i have an engine, which is not aligned with the crank and is unusable. i realize that for anything to be usable i'd have to support it myself, i've just gotten into electronics, in order to build a current sensor that would be hooked up to my electric bycicle via android.
and i'm pretty good at assembling stuff, so if i don't need any special parts adapted i think i could be ok.

folks have been trying to sell the BMC kit, saying it's a whole lot powerful then yours, and doesn't need maintenance, in fact the technician who dumped said he only deals with hub motors and he can't bare to look at crank drive anymore, as he put it. i tend to agree that crank drive may need more maintenance (more moving parts, for example, i have as you can see a polly along side with wheel of the engine, which is sensitive part and causes the chain to fall if not aligned property) but how much more? would i need spare parts inside the engine? would i be able to replace them?

does that fact that i have crank for an electric engine, means i don't need another one?

what's single and triple chain ring? (i might know how it looks like , but not the english term for it).

Ahh. That helps me understand a lot better. So you clearly need more power than 250w to climb 15 degrees!

15 degrees? not 15 %? Man, that's a big ask for any ebike that isn't really a motorcycle.

One option you might consider is a Mac hubmotor from Emissions Free. ( trusted vendor) They are similar to the BMC. The one he has that has a ghost of a chance of handling 15% would be his very slowest winding, the 12t. You'll have to ask cellman about it, since the 10t is the slowest motor that has a page on the site.

On 15% grades, and they better be short, you will slow down a lot, and the slower winding will be better able to tolerate that. You most likely won't see your hearts desire in top speed though. Unfortunately that is the usual tradeoff with hubmotors. The faster the winding to get nice top speed, the worse they perform on hills, unless your run them at power levels 3x4 times what they were designed for.

The other approach would be to build something really really powerful in a hubmotor, run it at 3000-5000w, and really stand out to the local cops compared to the 250w legal limit.

My dirt bike comes pretty close to your specs, if you can find the motor I am using. They aren not for sale anyplace I know of. It's an extremely slow winding 9 continent direct drive hubmotor. 2812 winding. When I run it at 72v 40 amps, it will climb 15% for a short distance. It's top speed is about 40 kph.

This bike is a near one of a kind kluge hacked together from various parts, and a motor that I lucked out getting my hands on. You won't find any dealers offering much similar, this was pretty much my own experiment.

What you really need, is a chain drive motor, as you have. Your best option is quite likely to be a lot of study, and learning enough to be your own support for a non hub solution. Non hub, you can gear it low enough to get up those hills.

before i continue, the incline measurements were taken using this app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.smallbouldering.howsteepliteweight&hl=en i simply layed down my android on something that looks similar to what i would encounter, (like going out from a garage) and added 2 degrees for safekeeping.

better-bikes say they sell V4 bmc hub motors, one can reach 2000V, and they also sell a dual kit http://www.electric-bikes.com/betterbikes/bmc.html which is around 4000V as well. but after you told i don't think i can exactly trust them now can i.

my gut keeps telling i need chain drive, for better efficiency , but i keep getting warning how chain drives are high maintanence as judging with what's going on with my current chain drive, which is a kludge clamp, (as seen on pics i've placed here), that's very worrying. they tell me i would also need to replace chains , cassette and sprockets every month or so, (actually my exprience said otherwise).

cops are not a problem, when the law to wear helmets in the city came out, they barely enforced, none of them is capable of distingushing between 250 500 or top speed limit. personally i've never heard of getting arrested for this. customs might be a problem, but i was told to ask the dealer to mark is a 250w hub motor, if i order something "bigger".

ecospeed seems to only mid-drive kit worth something, but i don't know it's reputation, if i would to "makeshift" parts if something goes wrong, that's a problem for me. i don't have the time for constant adjustments. i also need something that would be able to go 40 km per charge.

Well, that's good about the cops. Very nice, and similar here where I live. They notice you if you run a light, or ride wrongway, or have just been hit by a car. Otherwise, if you aren't blowing smoke, they ignore you completely.

I should have mentioned, front and rear hubmotors is a proven solution for climbing steep hills. Double the power, means you can go ahead and use the faster windings since you won't bog down as slow on the climb with twice the power.

2000w is defintitely the ballpark you need for power. One option I've been meaning to try for years is a fairly powerful direct drive hubmotor on the rear, then a seperatly controlled throttle on a freewheeling gearmotor on the front wheel.

Run about 1500w on the rear motor, which would be selected to go about 30 mph, then a slower winding gearmotor run at 1000w on the front. You'd only run the front motor up the steepest hills, the rest of the time you let it freewheel.

I disagree that chain drive is more efficient, but for absolutely sure, you can gear it to climb watever you need to climb, up to about 20% at least. Shifting, and just having much power through skinny chain are the mechanical problems you get with it though.

I don't know what your budget is, but it will take some cash to do it nice. Emissions Free is a source of good gearmotors at a good price you can trust. I mentioned Grin Cyclery too, you could get a normal 9 continent kit plus an Ezee gearmotor kit from him. Or similarly, get a muxus dd motor and a front gearmotor from Emissions Free.

I don't have a lot of other vendor recomendations, I'm really clueless about the european vendors.

if i use full throttle on a climb with a drive engine, with gear 1, and i full throttle with a powerfull hub motor, surely it would a whole lot difference battery wise, and since you said nothing ecospeed i'm assuming they are not recommended.

i've emailed emissions-free about the weight of their traingle batteries. but i saw they are rather reluctent about climbs..

That's a realy steep hill for how long ? you need a battery of cellman 51v. or a 72v. two 36v one on each side. A 9c 2810 at 60v - 72v. at 30amps. for that hill or hills. Still for how long and how steep.

since this is still a city, then i'm thinking 1-2 minutes, several of them.
(up and down..)
where would i get such batteries?

Cellman has the heavy duty battery 51v. that is plug and play with motors and complete kits . the only thing you need is a C.A. make sure that is plug and play on controller Ask about the best combo for your hills, as hills are a battery and hub killer if you just sit on the throttle at slow speed and no peddling ect. I don't thing your hill is that steep. How much money are you going to spend ? What bike are yougoing to put it on ? Plan all it out.

oh yea,i thought about getting that triangle bit. seems sweet. that along side 2400 dollars would makea cool 3000$, however ecospeed warned me that shipping cost alone for the battery would read 400$ as it's considered a hazmat. but i don't it's weight.

i plan to install on my current trek 7300, the problem i have with it now is that has one of the batteries in the back which sometimes overloads the wheel.

Hahaha $400 hazmat fee, that's rich.
$0 hazmat fee for all the lipos i ordered, for the ev-assemble battery i ordered, etc.
Buy it straight from China and you'll be shocked at how much less $ it costs.

Ecospeed setup is a ripoff imho, i know what motor they're using and the actual motor itself cost about $100 or less.

If you have a DIY-ing or Research-ing bone in your body, you could pull off this build for an amazingly cheap price

maybe because it's an international order, they didn't sound they have anything to gain from it, they recommended i should order the engine and battery seperatly.

i do have researching bone, but i'm also a java developer, and i really really hate doing something someone else already done, i need something working from the start, this is my only mode of transportation,if i get it, it must be up and running within a day, or at least a weekend, with the only alternative is to actually buy another bike for this testing (something i thought about). , and yes my current technician does have access to rhino and a 3d printer and in theory i could try to develop something similar, but that's partially what got me it this mess in the first a proto-type bracket which i have no idea how to fix if it goes wrong. you've seen the photos, in the words of the "bones" , i'm a developer, not an engineer.
actually there's nothing to stop me from just replacing the current motor i have and just get 1000 watt one,it's not hard wired to the bracket. oh wait, well except maybe the fact that i need to replace the controller ,batteries, the batteries housing's. and so on.. and suddenly a complete kit doesn't sound so far fetched. i'm all alone at this. i can't risk it.

Is this the batt your refering too. My bud sent me this picture just the other day as they are shipping to distrubuters from BMC. I don't see balance leads. I would love to test a pair of these. About 8" long and 4" wide, ?? deep ??

There are quite a few programmers here. And geeks of many other stripes. That's what makes this forum so fun.

Maybe your idea of having 2 ebikes would be best. I definitely worry about reliability a lot less now that i have 3, and can experiment with all sorts of stuff... if it goes wrong, i am not destroyed.

You have a super major hill. What i would recommend is a bike with a very slow winding motor, and climb that thing at no more than 15-20mph. A magic pie in a small wheel would be my first recommendation, as the best bang per buck wall climber. Then a low speed winding version of a Crystalyte 53xx, 54xx, or even better, a cromotor hubzilla would be my next recommendations if you want to exceed 20mph.

Downside would be that your 'on the flats' speed would be really low. It's like having a car that only has a 1st gear.

But it would be a very basic and reliable setup. You can experiment with more sophisticated things later on if you just need to get going.

As for your battery, there are tons of different options. Ping batteries are great if you don't want to dick around with connections and balancing, just want something that is 'set it and forget it', but they are heavier than what you're looking at. RC Lipo is dirt cheap, but there are safety issues if you do not know what you're doing with it, but i have a feeling that your developer bone could tolerate it. It's still as light as you're gonna get, unless you want to cross-shop low output batteries like the allcell, dow kokam ( energy ) cells, etc.

emaayan said:

maybe because it's an international order, they didn't sound they have anything to gain from it, they recommended i should order the engine and battery seperatly.

i do have researching bone, but i'm also a java developer, and i really really hate doing something someone else already done, i need something working from the start, this is my only mode of transportation,if i get it, it must be up and running within a day, or at least a weekend, with the only alternative is to actually buy another bike for this testing (something i thought about). , and yes my current technician does have access to rhino and a 3d printer and in theory i could try to develop something similar, but that's partially what got me it this mess in the first a proto-type bracket which i have no idea how to fix if it goes wrong. you've seen the photos, in the words of the "bones" , i'm a developer, not an engineer.
actually there's nothing to stop me from just replacing the current motor i have and just get 1000 watt one,it's not hard wired to the bracket. oh wait, well except maybe the fact that i need to replace the controller ,batteries, the batteries housing's. and so on.. and suddenly a complete kit doesn't sound so far fetched. i'm all alone at this. i can't risk it.

Click to expand...

p.s. it would be helpful if you put your country in your profile. I assumed you are in the USA. Whatever advice we give you here needs to be tailored to which country you are in.

I am pretty sure this guy is in Israel.


d

aside from the money, (getting another bike my size) i also room issues, i already have a folding bike with the same type of motor, becouse it's battery is so pupped (only has 5 km range) i'm using now as an experiment for my current meter device. by your recommendation, (slow winding) i'm assuming you pushing for a hub motor and chain engines are a a no go. flat speed is a problem, said major hlils are located only on one route of the city, my current motor climbs them ok, in fact my current motor can reach 30 km range i think, after going through that hill, what's the best way to measure the hill i'm talking about?

to tell you the truth , that in the future experiments i had in mind was to get an eeg headset , and connect it to my android which would be connected a controller, (sorta like board of imagination http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57397554-93/board-of-imagination-a-mind-controlled-skateboard-seriously/ only i thought about it first)
i thought about getting a bicycle retrofit it with a motor and then try to build a .. jet engine for it. (though i natrualy try to build a prototype on a small toy maybe).

neptronix said:

There are quite a few programmers here. And geeks of many other stripes. That's what makes this forum so fun.

Maybe your idea of having 2 ebikes would be best. I definitely worry about reliability a lot less now that i have 3, and can experiment with all sorts of stuff... if it goes wrong, i am not destroyed.

You have a super major hill. What i would recommend is a bike with a very slow winding motor, and climb that thing at no more than 15-20mph. A magic pie in a small wheel would be my first recommendation, as the best bang per buck wall climber. Then a low speed winding version of a Crystalyte 53xx, 54xx, or even better, a cromotor hubzilla would be my next recommendations if you want to exceed 20mph.

Downside would be that your 'on the flats' speed would be really low. It's like having a car that only has a 1st gear.

But it would be a very basic and reliable setup. You can experiment with more sophisticated things later on if you just need to get going.

As for your battery, there are tons of different options. Ping batteries are great if you don't want to dick around with connections and balancing, just want something that is 'set it and forget it', but they are heavier than what you're looking at. RC Lipo is dirt cheap, but there are safety issues if you do not know what you're doing with it, but i have a feeling that your developer bone could tolerate it. It's still as light as you're gonna get, unless you want to cross-shop low output batteries like the allcell, dow kokam ( energy ) cells, etc.

emaayan said:

maybe because it's an international order, they didn't sound they have anything to gain from it, they recommended i should order the engine and battery seperatly.

i do have researching bone, but i'm also a java developer, and i really really hate doing something someone else already done, i need something working from the start, this is my only mode of transportation,if i get it, it must be up and running within a day, or at least a weekend, with the only alternative is to actually buy another bike for this testing (something i thought about). , and yes my current technician does have access to rhino and a 3d printer and in theory i could try to develop something similar, but that's partially what got me it this mess in the first a proto-type bracket which i have no idea how to fix if it goes wrong. you've seen the photos, in the words of the "bones" , i'm a developer, not an engineer.
actually there's nothing to stop me from just replacing the current motor i have and just get 1000 watt one,it's not hard wired to the bracket. oh wait, well except maybe the fact that i need to replace the controller ,batteries, the batteries housing's. and so on.. and suddenly a complete kit doesn't sound so far fetched. i'm all alone at this. i can't risk it.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...